New flag patch regulation.

[C/ Bethea]

Hello all,
I looked at CAPM 39-1 under summery of changes, and saw that on Jan 1, 2017 the US flag patch is to be taken off the BDU uniform. I have heard roomers about certain wings being exempt from this upcoming regulation but I'm not sure that's true. so have any of you heard of a state that is exempt? please let me know.
Thanks! 

[abdsp51]

There is no exemption.  39-1 is the Bible on uniform wear unless there is an authorized supplement.  And there is not upcoming regulation the current manual is dated Jun/Jul of 2014. 

[JC004]

It's going away.  Wings do not get to authorize shoulder patches.  The sooner you remove it, the better.  Do not have new members attach them. 

[LSThiker]

It's going away.  Wings do not get to authorize shoulder patches.  The sooner you remove it, the better.  Do not have new members attach them.

I think you guys are reading too in between the lines. I think what is happening is a confusion of patches. Most definitely the US Flag is being removed. However, what is optional are the wing patches. Some wings are removing them while others are mandating them. To the OP, check with your SQ HQ to see what your wing is doing.

[PHall]

It's going away.  Wings do not get to authorize shoulder patches.  The sooner you remove it, the better.  Do not have new members attach them.

I think you guys are reading too in between the lines. I think what is happening is a confusion of patches. Most definitely the US Flag is being removed. However, what is optional are the wing patches. Some wings are removing them while others are mandating them. To the OP, check with your SQ HQ to see what your wing is doing.

Wing Patches are a Wing Commander Option. And yes, a new Wing Commander can change the option for their wing.

[LSThiker]

Wing Patches are a Wing Commander Option. And yes, a new Wing Commander can change the option for their wing.

True and I implied it when I stated to the OP to check with their SQ HQ to see what their Wing is doing.  Nevertheless, you are correct I should have clarified that more.

[MSG Mac]

In my wing, they adopted a new Wing Patch two years ago, and still haven't made it mandatory.

[C/ Bethea]

Thank you all for your feedback, and clearing that up for me.
I appreciate it very much.

Thanks.
C/CMSgt Bethea

[Flying Pig]

Great news. The few patches the better.

[AlphaSigOU]

And the reaction over the removal of the flag patch was downright jingoistic (lookitup in your Funk & Wagnalls!).

[Stonewall]

Great news. The few patches the better.

I concur.  I am pleased that the flag patch is coming off.  People seem to want to say "that's un-American", but CAP has been around for A LONG LONG time without the flag on the uniform, and for some post-9/11 reason, someone decided we need the flag on our uniform.  A costly endeavor for an all-volunteer force.

[Flying Pig]

I was just thinkin..... I was in the Marines and the Army for 8 years total....... I've been a cop for 18 years.  The only time I've ever worn the American flag was in a CAP flight suit.

[LSThiker]

I was just thinkin..... I was in the Marines and the Army for 8 years total....... I've been a cop for 18 years.  The only time I've ever worn the American flag was in a CAP flight suit.

That is, unless a person joined the Army after Oct 2005 when it became mandatory to wear the US Flag on BDUs for all personnel. 

Needless to say, the day that the removal of US flags from CAP BDUs became official, I already had a seam ripper to the uniform.

[Flying Pig]

Ive just never been a fan of patches.  Things like the American flag... .when we are in the US and non-deployable just add one more patch to a uniform already covered with them.  Name tapes, rank, specialty badge.  Wings, CAP badges, or a prior service military badge.    For cadets, Im a little indifferent to it.  I get that patches are a great motivator for cadets.  But for seniors, Ive seen many who are just over the top with patches.   Less is more sorta thing. 

I haven't rejoined yet, but in the next couple of weeks I more than likely will.   Is the flag and wing patch required to be on the BDUs?

[LSThiker]

I haven't rejoined yet, but in the next couple of weeks I more than likely will.   Is the flag and wing patch required to be on the BDUs?

US Flag is now being removed.  The Wing patch is optional depending on the Wing Commander.  Check with your Wing to see if they require it.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Ive just never been a fan of patches.  Things like the American flag... .when we are in the US and non-deployable just add one more patch to a uniform already covered with them.  Name tapes, rank, specialty badge.  Wings, CAP badges, or a prior service military badge.    For cadets, Im a little indifferent to it.  I get that patches are a great motivator for cadets.  But for seniors, Ive seen many who are just over the top with patches.   Less is more sorta thing. 

:clap:

[Chappie]

Great news. The few patches the better.

I concur.  I am pleased that the flag patch is coming off.  People seem to want to say "that's un-American", but CAP has been around for A LONG LONG time without the flag on the uniform, and for some post-9/11 reason, someone decided we need the flag on our uniform.  A costly endeavor for an all-volunteer force.

As soon as it was announced that the flag would be coming off, it came off.   I wore BDUs for 10 years prior to having the flag on...which came about in a time which many of us long to forget and that was a constant reminder of...never mind...I think you get the drift.      Nothing un-American about not having the flag on the working uniform.   The very fact that we wear a CAP uniform (corporate or USAF-style) speaks of our patriotism and devotion to serve our nation.

[Angus]

Like a few others the day the regulation went live I had the stitch popper taking the Flag Patch off.  I agree with the statements above that since we are non-deployable there was no need for it on there.  We all know it was there because HWSNBN put it there during the "US Civil Air Patrol" days when he didn't want us confused with other countries having a similar program. 

[Garibaldi]

The day the new 39-1 came out, cadets in my olde unit were ordered to remove them immediately. My current unit, we're taking a more circuitous approach. New cadets are not required to have them, and the old cadets are adhering to the sunset date. Once that date is near, out come the seam poppers and off the flags go.

[Damron]

Like a few others the day the regulation went live I had the stitch popper taking the Flag Patch off.  I agree with the statements above that since we are non-deployable there was no need for it on there.  We all know it was there because HWSNBN put it there during the "US Civil Air Patrol" days when he didn't want us confused with other countries having a similar program.

Interesting that a couple folks on this thread removed their flags without consulting their commander.   So much for unit uniformity.  We have advised our cadets that they should remove patches when we reach the deadline. Cadets have been advised not to affix flags to newly acquired BDUs.

I don't like BDUs that look like flower bouquets.  I think the bare minimum of patches looks the best and I frown on wear of any hat other than the BDU patrol cap.  Likewise, I dont like packs decorated with patches.



 

[abdsp51]

Like a few others the day the regulation went live I had the stitch popper taking the Flag Patch off.  I agree with the statements above that since we are non-deployable there was no need for it on there.  We all know it was there because HWSNBN put it there during the "US Civil Air Patrol" days when he didn't want us confused with other countries having a similar program.

Interesting that a couple folks on this thread removed their flags without consulting their commander.   So much for unit uniformity.  We have advised our cadets that they should remove patches when we reach the deadline. Cadets have been advised not to affix flags to newly acquired BDUs.

I don't like BDUs that look like flower bouquets.  I think the bare minimum of patches looks the best and I frown on wear of any hat other than the BDU patrol cap.  Likewise, I dont like packs decorated with patches.

You do know that the NAT CC is the one who signed 39-1 right?  So the CC has spoken on it.  Guess what as soon as this last round of 39-1 was published all the flags on all of my BDU's and BBDU's came off right away. 

And really you're going to make people wait to remove something till the due date?  There's is no harm in removing the flag since it is now optional until 2017. 

[Damron]

I understand the regulation.

If you were a cadet in my squadron you would be sewing your patch back on.   I wouldn't even entertain a conversation on the matter.

Some things require coordination at the squadron level, this is one of them.  If after reading the new regulation your first thought was immediately removing your flag instead of thinking how your squadron should address the new policy, you have revealed interesting insights into your personality.

[PHall]

I understand the regulation.

If you were a cadet in my squadron you would be sewing your patch back on.   I wouldn't even entertain a conversation on the matter.

Some things require coordination at the squadron level, this is one of them.  If after reading the new regulation your first thought was immediately removing your flag instead of thinking how your squadron should address the new policy, you have revealed interesting insights into your personality.

By what regulation are you requiring them to wear an optional patch? You're overstepping your authority here.

[Damron]

You're "that guy".  If you think our interpretation and execution of this regulation is an abuse of authority, do what you have to do. 

If I announced that for purposes of uniformity "we" were going to continue to wear the flags on "our" uniforms and you stood up waving your copy of 39-1 and told us what "you" were going to do as a result of "your" interpretation of the regulation and shared  "your" thoughts about abuse of authority ... you've pretty much identified yourself as "that guy".  Good luck with that.

[abdsp51]

You're "that guy".  If you think our interpretation and execution of this regulation is an abuse of authority, do what you have to do. 

If I announced that for purposes of uniformity "we" were going to continue to wear the flags on "our" uniforms and you stood up waving your copy of 39-1 and told us what "you" were going to do as a result of "your" interpretation of the regulation and shared  "your" thoughts about abuse of authority ... you've pretty much identified yourself as "that guy".  Good luck with that.

And you're that guy who can't grasp that all not units are not they same therefore will not operate the same. And you're that guy who probably throws a tantrum anytime he doesn't get his way.

Bottom line a member of your unit can not wear the flag and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it. 

[Damron]

What would suggest that I would throw a tantrum over this or anything else for that matter?

Yeah, I probably wouldn't say or do anything about it.  However, time has shown me that the pedant that doesn't want to play team ball when it doesn't matter may not want to play team ball when it does matter.

Thankfully, "that guy" usually has an extensive resume of being "that guy".  It's rarely a secret, others take note.  Whenever "that guy" sees an option, he's likely to choose the option he wants, not what's best for the organization. 

Unlike many cadet squadrons, we are very active, we go on real missions, we are very active in our community.  If half my cadets exercise their option to remove their patches and we show up at a high profile event the next day looking like crap, I can thank guys like you for a vigorous defense and promotion of individual interpretation and execution of CAP policies.  That's what "that guy" does.

[abdsp51]

There is no individual interpretation.  It's in black and white the flag is an optional item not required.  Therefore optional means it's the members choice to not have it on.  And you can not make it mandatory unless you are going to foot the bill.  I can guarantee that if I was a cadet (which I am not in any capacity a cadet) in your unit and I took the flag off there is very very little you could do about and you can tell me all day long to sew back on and it wouldn't happen unless it was coming out of your own pocket.

By your own previous statements you no longer have uniformity anyway. But yeah you're "that guy" who whines and moans and makes demands when things don't go his way.  That's already clear here, not to mention usually if your making the statement about someone else it's usually a reflection on you. 

[lordmonar]

What would suggest that I would throw a tantrum over this or anything else for that matter?

Yeah, I probably wouldn't say or do anything about it.  However, time has shown me that the pedant that doesn't want to play team ball when it doesn't matter may not want to play team ball when it does matter.

Thankfully, "that guy" usually has an extensive resume of being "that guy".  It's rarely a secret, others take note.  Whenever "that guy" sees an option, he's likely to choose the option he wants, not what's best for the organization. 

Unlike many cadet squadrons, we are very active, we go on real missions, we are very active in our community.  If half my cadets exercise their option to remove their patches and we show up at a high profile event the next day looking like crap, I can thank guys like you for a vigorous defense and promotion of individual interpretation and execution of CAP policies.  That's what "that guy" does.

If uniformity is so important........why not order them all to take off the optional patch?

Your own statements show that uniformity is not all that important because those buying new BDUs did not have to put it on....ergo as the removal date approaches and as time goes by an new members join your unit.....half your cadets will show up at a high profile event looking "un-uniform" but probably not like crap.

[Damron]

Of 60+ cadets, only one is flagless.  Of 10+ senior members, one is flagless.   That's pretty uniform, as would be removal of all flags.

We provide BDU's to our cadets and most of our senior members.  We have not liked the unfaded rectangle left behind after flag removal.  It's more dramatic on older and more faded BDU's.  We hope to increase our stockpile of BDU's throughout the year to address this issue. We have a couple of high profile events this year and want to look our best.   That's one reason.  Another reason is there were rumors that removal deadline might be extended.  Beyond that, we have an interest in preventing our cadets from damaging their BDU's by improper removal. 

For the most part, our cadets don't own their BDU's, we have a bit more leverage as a result.  As the regulation doesn't provide a clear transition plan that encourages uniformity, some discretion is probably reasonable.

But that really wasn't the point of my post.  I was pointing at a certain behavior that I think is a little selfish and indicative that an individual wasn't thinking about the unit when deciding to remove flags without some unit coordination.

[abdsp51]

Still not your call to call anyone selfish or not a team player.  There are plenty of folks who are team players and again it's an optional item until the phase out date.  Which by the way unless your rumor mill is NHQ or the NUC it's rumor period.

Plenty of people can think about the unit and have removed the flag as soon as it was allowed.  You're awfully butt hurt considering you said yourself less patches is better. 

It's optional, manual says so can't make it a requirement unless you are going to foot the bill for it.  Run along now that is all...

[Garibaldi]

I can guarantee that if I was a cadet (which I am not in any capacity a cadet) in your unit and I took the flag off there is very very little you could do about and you can tell me all day long to sew back on and it wouldn't happen unless it was coming out of your own pocket.
reflection on you.

Dude.....If you came up to one of MY cadets with a sharp implement and cut something off his/her uniform, say goodbye to your CAP career. Sewing it back on would be the last thing I would "tell" you to do. And possibly the last act you would do as a CAP officer. As a cop, you should know better. As a CAP Officer, you REALLY should know better.

Never mind...I re-read this after posting. Apologies. I haven't had coffee yet and my eyes are still on my night table.

[Capt Thompson]

I'm going to somewhat agree with both sides on this, and try not to elevate the argument that has already strayed quite a bit from the OP. When the 39-1 changed, I agree there should be some unit coordination, rather than just taking the patch off right away. This was announced 3 years ahead of time, what's the rush to grab the seam ripper? I would have addressed it at the next meeting, and come up with an agreement among the staff on a date for removal.

I agree that technically as soon as the reg says you can take it off, the Squadron CC can't say anything if you do, but waiting a week and seeing what everyone else wants to do wouldn't hurt any.

On the other hand, the proper approach for uniformity would be to take them all off. If the BDU's are so worn and faded that they leave a noticeable rectangle on the shoulder, then they probably already look somewhat like crap anyway, and that's another issue that needs to be addressed.

Just my .02

[Garibaldi]

I'm going to somewhat agree with both sides on this, and try not to elevate the argument that has already strayed quite a bit from the OP. When the 39-1 changed, I agree there should be some unit coordination, rather than just taking the patch off right away. This was announced 3 years ahead of time, what's the rush to grab the seam ripper? I would have addressed it at the next meeting, and come up with an agreement among the staff on a date for removal.

I agree that technically as soon as the reg says you can take it off, the Squadron CC can't say anything if you do, but waiting a week and seeing what everyone else wants to do wouldn't hurt any.

On the other hand, the proper approach for uniformity would be to take them all off. If the BDU's are so worn and faded that they leave a noticeable rectangle on the shoulder, then they probably already look somewhat like crap anyway, and that's another issue that needs to be addressed.

Just my .02

The Wing CC has authority to set policy for his subordinate units. If he says no, then the answer is no.  We are still waiting for our CC to make a final call, but we are not issuing new flags. I still think it's kind of silly to have half with and half without. Either remove flag yes, or remove flag no. Remove flag guess so, end up looking like rag bag. /Miyagi

[NIN]

24-ish years ago, we switched from fatigues (pickle suits) to BDUs (salad suits).

The gnashing of teeth was incredible. From the "why do we have to wear camouflage?" crowd to the "OMG, the world will end if there is just ONE PERSON in formation in a DIFFERENT UNIFORM!" patrol, you could hear the grinding of internal gears from Maine to Alaska.

And you know what: discipline didn't break down. The organization didn't end right then and there (as some predicted!), and we kept on getting the business done.

The same goes for the flag patch today: You don't see people out there going "OMG, this formation isn't UNIFORM because THREE PEOPLE are wearing NCSA patches!" or similar, right?   At a certain point, there is a limit to the degree of "uniformity" you can obtain. Sure, you want all your people to be in black boots, BDUs, patrol caps, etc (yes, yes, we have corporate uniforms.. I am mostly referring to cadet formations here..)  But at that point, things start to get funky.  We don't say things like "If all of you don't have a ground team badge, none of you can wear it," right?  And nobody screams that its not "uniform." "Sorry, cadet, but you need to take off that rocketry badge. Nobody else has one in this flight, and we're uniform!"

What next? "Sorry, cadet, but female cadets in this squadron don't wear a bun. You have to chop all your hair off so you're uniform with the male cadets..." (Don't laugh, I've heard similar things come out of a cadet's mouth...)

Its not the end of western civilization when a guy in BBDUs stands in formation with people in BDUs, right?  Nobody's gonna die if someone elects NOT to sew on the flag with their new set of BDUs and then shows up to a meeting.

So far, nobody's said "boo" to me about the flag not being on my BDUs.   

So why is there a big deal with a patch?  Answer: there is not.

[Garibaldi]

24-ish years ago, we switched from fatigues (pickle suits) to BDUs (salad suits).

The gnashing of teeth was incredible. From the "why do we have to wear camouflage?" crowd to the "OMG, the world will end if there is just ONE PERSON in formation in a DIFFERENT UNIFORM!" patrol, you could hear the grinding of internal gears from Maine to Alaska.

And you know what: discipline didn't break down. The organization didn't end right then and there (as some predicted!), and we kept on getting the business done.

The same goes for the flag patch today: You don't see people out there going "OMG, this formation isn't UNIFORM because THREE PEOPLE are wearing NCSA patches!" or similar, right?   At a certain point, there is a limit to the degree of "uniformity" you can obtain. Sure, you want all your people to be in black boots, BDUs, patrol caps, etc (yes, yes, we have corporate uniforms.. I am mostly referring to cadet formations here..)  But at that point, things start to get funky.  We don't say things like "If all of you don't have a ground team badge, none of you can wear it," right?  And nobody screams that its not "uniform." "Sorry, cadet, but you need to take off that rocketry badge. Nobody else has one in this flight, and we're uniform!"

What next? "Sorry, cadet, but female cadets in this squadron don't wear a bun. You have to chop all your hair off so you're uniform with the male cadets..." (Don't laugh, I've heard similar things come out of a cadet's mouth...)

Its not the end of western civilization when a guy in BBDUs stands in formation with people in BDUs, right?  Nobody's gonna die if someone elects NOT to sew on the flag with their new set of BDUs and then shows up to a meeting.

So far, nobody's said "boo" to me about the flag not being on my BDUs.   

So why is there a big deal with a patch?  Answer: there is not.

I'm thinking along those lines as well. Uniformity meaning one uniform, or type. Of course, we can't ban all badges and patches, or the awards thereof become meaningless. Hair, too. Not every male will have his head shaved, but most will comply with the spirit of the reg if not the actual letter. Females all have different hair length, and to say that all have to cut their hair because one female opts for a short non-bunnable style is ridiculous.

[NIN]

Yet I've heard similarly ridiculous statements from people you'd think wouldn't make them.

"If one cadet doesn't have a watch, then take yours off for uniformity" (I suppose being on time is less important than all looking the same)

yet at the same time, the yahoos who will stand an proclaim these kinds of things loudly are the very same ones (not always, but often) who wear their bright orange ES hat while the rest of the squadron is in regular PCs, they show up at missions wearing a boonie hat, strap on a pistol belt (without a canteen), etc, etc, etc.

"Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik"

[NIN]

BTW, I spent 10 years in an Army uniform, and literally never heard anything like that, and you'd think that they'd be ALL ABOUT uniformity at points, right?

[sarmed1]

never mind........ (insert picture of patch covered back pack with "THAT GUY" tab on the front)

MK

[NIN]

Busted image, Mark.. Try again!

[PHall]

Busted image, Mark.. Try again!

Yeah, I want my "That Guy" patch!

[kwe1009]

Wing/Group/Squadron commanders can make any optional uniform item mandatory within their area of responsibility.  As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

Concerning the American flag, I don't see the purpose of making everyone wear it or if it matters for uniformity's sake unless you are performing at a competition or something similar.  You are going to have cadets with NCSA or ES patches that not everyone else has so the uniforms will never be entirely "uniform." 

[goblin]

As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.

Why?

[Nuke52]

Wing/Group/Squadron commanders can make any optional uniform item mandatory within their area of responsibility.  As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

And you provide them with ALL of their ribbons and the corresponding ribbon holder?

[rmutchler]

Wing/Group/Squadron commanders can make any optional uniform item mandatory within their area of responsibility.  As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

Do you make your seniors wear all ribbons as well?  If not, you are setting a double standard and almost a "Do as I say, not as I do" culture.  You should be spending more time ensuring compliance with regs rather than exercising your authority.  You also might have trouble enforcing that from a regulation standpoint, since even a short stack is within regulations.

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn.

Being a Squadron/CC is about getting the missions done, safely, and within regulations.  Not exercising authority.

[Spaceman3750]

Being a Squadron/CC is about getting the missions done, safely, and within regulations.  Not exercising authority.

Someone please add this as a slide in the UCC curriculum. :clap:

[Holding Pattern]

Wing/Group/Squadron commanders can make any optional uniform item mandatory within their area of responsibility.  As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

And you provide them with ALL of their ribbons and the corresponding ribbon holder?

Personally, if a cadet in my squadron told me that they weren't wearing earned ribbons due to a lack of money, I'd place the order for their ribbons and racks right then and there. I'm pretty sure I could put together an impromptu bake sale if necessary to cover the cost of ribbons...

[SMWOG]

Ribbons optional for ss and ls...mandatory for service coat...its that simple!

[Stonewall]

I think everyone needs to read this very important article about wearing the uniform.  Especially that guy who was in the Army and refuses to take his flag off because he is too patriotic to not wear it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Is this serious? 

I have handled DD 214 from veterans joining CAP when I was Personnel Officer.

These two articles tell me it is not. The following link to this site was posted by another member yesterday or this morning:

http://auxnewsnow.com/2016/01/disgraced-former-national-commander-stages-coup-declares-self-commandante-for-life/

Then we have this one, which among other things, states the ferry flight was used at the same time to test the airplane for airworthiness... 

http://auxnewsnow.com/2016/01/usaf-declines-funding-replacement-airframes-tyndall-display-returned-to-flying-status/

[Chappie]

Is this serious? 

I have handled DD 214 from veterans joining CAP when I was Personnel Officer.

These two articles tell me it is not. The following link to this site was posted by another member yesterday or this morning:

http://auxnewsnow.com/2016/01/disgraced-former-national-commander-stages-coup-declares-self-commandante-for-life/

Then we have this one, which among other things, states the ferry flight was used at the same time to test the airplane for airworthiness... 


http://auxnewsnow.com/2016/01/usaf-declines-funding-replacement-airframes-tyndall-display-returned-to-flying-status/

Hate to be a "Party Pooper"...but

From the About section on "Aux News Now":

Disclaimer

We are in no way, shape, or form, a real news outlet.

Everything on this website is satirical and the content of this site is a parody of a news organization. No composition should be regarded as truthful, and no reference of an individual, company, or military unit seeks to inflict malice or emotional harm.

All characters, groups, and military units appearing in these works are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, or actual military units and companies is purely coincidental.  Public figures such as the AF Chief of Staff and elected/appointed officials are represented as such for humor purposes.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Thanks, I thought I had seen something like you posted a long time ago, but forgot. However I was teetering toward "not serious" anyway because of the links to the articles I posted. And another on "moving the patch design business out of the US to continue the low quality."

Anyway they got me... temporarily...

[NIN]

<facepalm>  Geez, people..

[Luis R. Ramos]

I know, right?



Well I am sorry!

[Stonewall]

LULZ

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yeah.

LULZ now, tomorrow it will be you!

Said tongue-in-cheek. 

[PHall]

Yeah.

LULZ now, tomorrow it will be you!

Said tongue-in-cheek. 

Stonewall is smarter then that.       [And so am I.]

[kwe1009]

Wing/Group/Squadron commanders can make any optional uniform item mandatory within their area of responsibility.  As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

Do you make your seniors wear all ribbons as well?  If not, you are setting a double standard and almost a "Do as I say, not as I do" culture.  You should be spending more time ensuring compliance with regs rather than exercising your authority.  You also might have trouble enforcing that from a regulation standpoint, since even a short stack is within regulations.

11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn.

Being a Squadron/CC is about getting the missions done, safely, and within regulations.  Not exercising authority.

Our squadron provides all ribbons and badges.  I require that they be worn with the blue shirt not to exercise any authority but to ensure the members (cadets and Seniors) know how to wear the uniform properly and that they maintain all earned badges and awards properly. 

I see my mission as a commander of a cadet squadron as training cadets to be leaders and good citizens.  Part of both is following directions and adhering to regulations and guidelines.  Wearing ribbons and badges also requires attention to detail and that is another reason why I require them.  I also want all of my squadron members to be proud of their accomplishments and show them off.  It is also a motivational tool for newer members to strive to earn more ribbons and badges.

[ALORD]

You REQUIRE S/M Officers to wear their ribbons on the Blue shirt? Do you want them to look like enlisted USAF people? I was delighted today to see that the American Colors patch had been de-authorized formally. Since I am becoming active again, my old BDU's won't have to have Army-type patches sewn on them. Here is my question: Was the wearing of the "Flag" patch ever really authorized by USAF on our Uniforms, or was it just some Pineda-style dictum? You won't make me wear my ribbons on my BDU's, like those guys begging for money at Freeway onramps will you?

[Fubar]

I also want all of my squadron members to be proud of their accomplishments and show them off.

Not sure dictating extra work makes anybody proud of anything. I'm proud of my accomplishments, and that pride isn't hinged on bling. It is based on results and respect of my peers. Are you suggesting your squadron members wouldn't be proud of their accomplishments if you weren't there to save the day with your decree?

If you want your members to be proud of the accomplishments, there are better ways to encourage that to happen. Forcing them to wear awards in order to "show them off" seems like more of a preference you have on how uniforms should look instead of attending to the needs of your people. If NHQ wanted everyone to wear everything available to them, NHQ would have required it. In fact the last uniform manual update specifically allowed cadets to short-stack, a change in the direction opposite of your requirement to your members.

Where does the money come from that's buying all that bling? Because if it's member dues, you're basically using their money to buy their own stuff, in other words you're forcing people to buy products they aren't required to buy as a condition of membership. If it's through fundraising or your pocket, then it seems within the spirit of nothing can be required if it isn't provided.

All that said, I could see a commander leading by example, proudly wearing every little bling and doohickie, explaining to the membership why you feel it's important to show off as much as you can. Perhaps you'd inspire folks to follow your lead, instead of dragging them along.

[A.Member]

As a squadron commander I require all of my cadets to wear all earned ribbons on their blues at meetings.  One of my cadets questioned my authority to do this and my reply was, "since I am providing them to you I can make you wear them.  I can't make you go out and purchase an optional item, but I can make you wear it if I issue it to you." 

You sound like a micro-manager.  How are you enforcing this mandate?  Do you do spot checks of their accomplishments in e-Services and verify against what's on their chest?  That would be a bit silly and probably not the most important thing to be concerned with as a squadron commander. 

I've never really experienced an issue where a cadet wasn't excited to add another ribbon to their chest/showcase their accomplishments.   On the contrary, I'd be more concerned with reining them in.  There are probably more cadets wearing ribbons/uniform items they didn't earn/aren't authorized to wear than there are cadets not wearing ribbons/items they earned; and if they aren't wearing a ribbon they've earned, it's likely due to a financial situation or simply a matter of education (they didn't know they earned it/authorized).  In either case the squadron would do good to step in and help.

Point is, it's probably a non-issue and you could avoid the appearance or actuality of being a micro-manager by not stating/mandating something that is likely occuring anyway.

[Ned]

Our squadron provides all ribbons and badges.  I require that they be worn with the blue shirt not to exercise any authority but to ensure the members (cadets and Seniors) know how to wear the uniform properly and that they maintain all earned badges and awards properly.

As a staff officer, it is my job to support commanders in the reasonable exercise of their discretion.  But I encourage commanders and unit-level cadet program officers to generally allow the cadets to lead in common situations involving uniforms.

Our program uses the uniform along with D & C and customs and courtesies as a critical leadership training tool.  Just as I would normally expect to see cadet NCOs and officers conducting uniform inspections, classes, on-the-spot corrections, I would normally expect the cadet commander and her/his staff set UOD requirements when drafting weekly meeting schedule and quarterly plans. 

Effective CP officers are indirect leaders who mentor and guide cadets by leading by example and asking critical questions of cadets as they lead their troops.  Obviously, cadet leaders make mistakes from time to time, just like every student.  But CP officers are there to help them understand their errors and learn from them in our Leadership Laboratory.

Obviously, we will not allow cadets to be unsafe, or endanger other cadets.  But the hallmark of the CAP Cadet Program is that we allow and require our cadets to lead (and follow) other cadets starting the moment they take the Oath.  Sometimes we can get in the way by assuming too much of the day-to-day decisions at the unit.

So, all things being equal, I'd ask that you reconsider the squadron wide mandatory "all ribbons all the time" rule and allow the cadets to set the UOD consistent with the training schedule. 

And let the seniors make their own choices.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

[Chappie]

You REQUIRE S/M Officers to wear their ribbons on the Blue shirt? Do you want them to look like enlisted USAF people? <SNIP>

There is CAP culture and USAF Culture.  CAP culture: senior members (officers) wear ribbons on their service shirt.   The only time that I will wear ribbons on my shirt is when participating in Encampment graduation...since that is the custom of the wing.  USAF Culture: Officers do not wear ribbons on their service shirt - service jacket only.   Hence the policy/practice of RSC and NSC of ribbons not being worn on the service shirt.  Most often these professional development courses are conducted on an USAF base....and in keeping with the custom of the host, ribbons are not worn.  I have one shirt reserved for ribbons and several that are for non-ribbons --- guess which gets the most wear?

[sarmed1]

You REQUIRE S/M Officers to wear their ribbons on the Blue shirt? Do you want them to look like enlisted USAF people? <SNIP>

There is CAP culture and USAF Culture.  CAP culture: senior members (officers) wear ribbons on their service shirt.   ...

I would say that is likely a product of there being more former Enlisted members coming to CAP than former Officers, so just as a matter of habit they do the same things they did while in the military.  I would have to say I never took notice in my time in the Big Green if the same thing happens, but I feel like it did?  (I also have to say except when I was in an Army Aviation unit, I never saw as many officers as I have since being in the AF, and certainly hardly ever in anything except BDU's, Tanker coveralls or flight suits.    I am pretty sure only recruiters wore greens......

MK

[kwe1009]

Our squadron provides all ribbons and badges.  I require that they be worn with the blue shirt not to exercise any authority but to ensure the members (cadets and Seniors) know how to wear the uniform properly and that they maintain all earned badges and awards properly.

As a staff officer, it is my job to support commanders in the reasonable exercise of their discretion.  But I encourage commanders and unit-level cadet program officers to generally allow the cadets to lead in common situations involving uniforms.

Our program uses the uniform along with D & C and customs and courtesies as a critical leadership training tool.  Just as I would normally expect to see cadet NCOs and officers conducting uniform inspections, classes, on-the-spot corrections, I would normally expect the cadet commander and her/his staff set UOD requirements when drafting weekly meeting schedule and quarterly plans. 

Effective CP officers are indirect leaders who mentor and guide cadets by leading by example and asking critical questions of cadets as they lead their troops.  Obviously, cadet leaders make mistakes from time to time, just like every student.  But CP officers are there to help them understand their errors and learn from them in our Leadership Laboratory.

Obviously, we will not allow cadets to be unsafe, or endanger other cadets.  But the hallmark of the CAP Cadet Program is that we allow and require our cadets to lead (and follow) other cadets starting the moment they take the Oath.  Sometimes we can get in the way by assuming too much of the day-to-day decisions at the unit.

So, all things being equal, I'd ask that you reconsider the squadron wide mandatory "all ribbons all the time" rule and allow the cadets to set the UOD consistent with the training schedule. 

And let the seniors make their own choices.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Thank you for your wise advice as always.  The ribbons policy was actually a group decision by Senior and cadet leadership.  It wasn't something that I simply came up with but I do agree with it.  The logic behind it is the same as making Air Force basic trainees fold everything in 6-inch squares.  It is about following directions and also giving others another opportunity to show some leadership skills and help those who aren't doing it correctly. 

Wearing ribbons also helps with recruiting as visitors see a cadet with a lot of ribbons which may help their decision to join. 

UOD for each meeting is set by our cadet commander (blues, BDUs, PT, etc) but generally follows a pattern of blues twice per month and BDUs once. 

For the group, I honestly can't understand why requiring members to wear an optional item that is provided to them at zero cost is such a big deal.  The squadron patch is not mandatory per 39-1 either but we require all members to have it and it is also provided at no charge.  I see the two items as the same. 

[Abby.L]

Our squadron provides all ribbons and badges.  I require that they be worn with the blue shirt not to exercise any authority but to ensure the members (cadets and Seniors) know how to wear the uniform properly and that they maintain all earned badges and awards properly.

As a staff officer, it is my job to support commanders in the reasonable exercise of their discretion.  But I encourage commanders and unit-level cadet program officers to generally allow the cadets to lead in common situations involving uniforms.

Our program uses the uniform along with D & C and customs and courtesies as a critical leadership training tool.  Just as I would normally expect to see cadet NCOs and officers conducting uniform inspections, classes, on-the-spot corrections, I would normally expect the cadet commander and her/his staff set UOD requirements when drafting weekly meeting schedule and quarterly plans. 

Effective CP officers are indirect leaders who mentor and guide cadets by leading by example and asking critical questions of cadets as they lead their troops.  Obviously, cadet leaders make mistakes from time to time, just like every student.  But CP officers are there to help them understand their errors and learn from them in our Leadership Laboratory.

Obviously, we will not allow cadets to be unsafe, or endanger other cadets.  But the hallmark of the CAP Cadet Program is that we allow and require our cadets to lead (and follow) other cadets starting the moment they take the Oath.  Sometimes we can get in the way by assuming too much of the day-to-day decisions at the unit.

So, all things being equal, I'd ask that you reconsider the squadron wide mandatory "all ribbons all the time" rule and allow the cadets to set the UOD consistent with the training schedule. 

And let the seniors make their own choices.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Thank you for your wise advice as always.  The ribbons policy was actually a group decision by Senior and cadet leadership.  It wasn't something that I simply came up with but I do agree with it.  The logic behind it is the same as making Air Force basic trainees fold everything in 6-inch squares.  It is about following directions and also giving others another opportunity to show some leadership skills and help those who aren't doing it correctly. 

Wearing ribbons also helps with recruiting as visitors see a cadet with a lot of ribbons which may help their decision to join. 

UOD for each meeting is set by our cadet commander (blues, BDUs, PT, etc) but generally follows a pattern of blues twice per month and BDUs once. 

For the group, I honestly can't understand why requiring members to wear an optional item that is provided to them at zero cost is such a big deal.  The squadron patch is not mandatory per 39-1 either but we require all members to have it and it is also provided at no charge.  I see the two items as the same. 

This might just be my point of view, and is certainly just what I've noticed, but I'm gonna say what I always tell my AF buddy: There's a difference between the uniform and being uniform. The prior is what is covered per the regulations, and by the designation of a UOD. This just means that if the UOD is blues, for example, that everyone be wearing regulation-spec blues. The latter isn't covered by any regulation, and therefore, cannot be enforced due to the lack of regulation, and would include the wearing of certain blues outergarments or accouterments to match everyone else, though not required by regulations. The problem is, however, that people confuse the latter with the prior, and vice versa. The problem with requiring the wear of optional items is just that: It's an optional item. There is no authority to require such items, unless you go as far as making, submitting, and having a 39-1 supplement approved for the squadron. Another problem with requiring such items, is, again, the cost of these items. Though you might cover and get everything for everyone(That causes problems of its own), there is always the cost to replace these items when they wear out, replacing lost items, or in the case of patches, paying the tailor to sew them on(I know they can sew them on themselves, but lets be honest, who actually does that?). The cost itself is likely a factor on why these items are optional, and it's not your place to say otherwise.

[kwe1009]

This might just be my point of view, and is certainly just what I've noticed, but I'm gonna say what I always tell my AF buddy: There's a difference between the uniform and being uniform. The prior is what is covered per the regulations, and by the designation of a UOD. This just means that if the UOD is blues, for example, that everyone be wearing regulation-spec blues. The latter isn't covered by any regulation, and therefore, cannot be enforced due to the lack of regulation, and would include the wearing of certain blues outergarments or accouterments to match everyone else, though not required by regulations. The problem is, however, that people confuse the latter with the prior, and vice versa. The problem with requiring the wear of optional items is just that: It's an optional item. There is no authority to require such items, unless you go as far as making, submitting, and having a 39-1 supplement approved for the squadron. Another problem with requiring such items, is, again, the cost of these items. Though you might cover and get everything for everyone(That causes problems of its own), there is always the cost to replace these items when they wear out, replacing lost items, or in the case of patches, paying the tailor to sew them on(I know they can sew them on themselves, but lets be honest, who actually does that?). The cost itself is likely a factor on why these items are optional, and it's not your place to say otherwise.

The squadron always wore ribbons/badges long before I ever joined CAP and became the squadron commander.  When I took command I simply continued the policy.  I don't think requiring the wear of an optional uniform item needs a 39-1 supplement.  It is simply a commander's direction, just like having everyone have their BDU sleeves up or down.  That same goes with not allowing an optional item.  We also don't allow cadets to wear the long sleeve shirt or a tie with the short sleeve shirt because we can't provide those to everyone and we don't want a cadet to feel left out or anything because they don't have a certain uniform item that others may have.  Do you consider this against regulation as well?  If so, please cite the paragraph. 

My Wing CC has stated that he does not want anyone wearing the Wing patch anymore and for all members to remove it.  Does this action require a 39-1 supplement?  I wouldn't think so. Is it not his place to say otherwise as you have suggested?  I think my Wing CC is well within his rights to make that direction.  Just like in the military, the unit commander has policies or standing orders which must be followed but are not necessarily written in the form or a regulation supplement. 

The BDU uniform itself is optional since it is not issued and is thus optional as nowhere in 39-1 does it state that it is mandatory.  But as a general practice it appears that most squadrons requires them.  So how is it OK for a squadron to mandate an entire uniform but it is not OK for a squadron to mandate the wearing of an optional uniform item that it is providing? 

You may not agree with this approach but it certainly isn't against any regulation and I would say that it is well within the authority of a commander to make that decision (although this was also a group decision within my squadron as well).  It has also been a great tool to not only get cadets paying attention to their uniforms but also everyone's uniforms.  It also gets older cadets to talk with younger ones as they show them how to wear the items correctly and thus hopefully opening up a line of communication that will be used in the future. 

I can't argue with the success of the unit in competitions and in having cadets earn Spaatz awards so we must be doing something right.  I'm just continuing the policies that have been working in the past.

[SMWOG]

So what if I told ypu I have one ss shirt and dont want to put all those holes in it?  What if I told you my ribbon rack is too big for my shirt.  I wear the minimum on my ss shirt,justwings and a graduated  grp cc badge. I follow USAF customs when it comes to ribbons and the wear of the service cap,  I think its great if your providing ribbons at no cost to your squadron mates.   

[RogueLeader]

So what if I told ypu I have one ss shirt and dont want to put all those holes in it?  What if I told you my ribbon rack is too big for my shirt.  I wear the minimum on my ss shirt,justwings and a graduated  grp cc badge. I follow USAF customs when it comes to ribbons and the wear of the service cap,  I think its great if your providing ribbons at no cost to your squadron mates.

You can decide that you aren't going to follow the Commanders orders, and risk disciplinary action, which could go either way; appeal to the next echelon; transfer to a different unit; or just comply. 

I didn't want to transfer to Wing HQ, but my options were just as limited as yours are.

I understand why you make the choice that you have, and usually follow the same guidance, but you realize that you have to make the best choice for and take the consequences as they come.

[umpirecali]

[quote ]
Another problem with requiring such items, is... paying the tailor to sew them on(I know they can sew them on themselves, but lets be honest, who actually does that?
[/quote]

I do.  It's not that hard

[SarDragon]

+1. I've done all my own CAP sewing since I was 16

[Гугл переводчик]

I've sewn on a couple of my patches, but between stabbing myself many times and ending up with a sewing job that looks horrible, I just take it on base and have the cleaners in the BX take care of it.

[Garibaldi]

+1. I've done all my own CAP sewing since I was 16

14. After my parents divorced, and after the DEBACALE with my mother re-engineering a blues shirt (don't ask), and my new step mother (a longtime CAP senior) refused to sew anything, I had to learn. The hard way. I tried the glue, ruined several shirts. Thought the stuff on the back of the patches was iron-on. Fell off during inspection. After several weeks of enduring "who the *heck* sewed this on, a blind man with no fingers?" I buckled down and learned. Still sew on my patches, and have even sewn on several cadets' patches in a pinch. Saves money, I know it's being done right, and it's a time saver.