Inappropriate CAP Cadet Survey

[thebeggerpie]

They should have had just Male, Female, and Other to cover that can of worms....

[PA Guy]

Here we go with another tempest in tea pot so typical of CAP Talk. You took the money and the survey is the cost welcome to the world.

[PA Guy]

They should have had just Male, Female, and Other to cover that can of worms....

How is "other" any different?

[Spam]

If a cadet hasn't told anyone the gender they really identify as yet,

... then a survey from Civil Air Patrol is NOT the place to be pushing that envelope with adolescents.

Actually, they are not asking about sexual orientation.  They are asking gender identity.  There is a difference. 

Sure, I get that, and yield the difference (and to your bio expertise, Sir).  Still inappropriate. Gender is physiological and is an easy two value answer - M/F - and is appropriate.

Pushing the third option opens the "can of worms" debate about psychosexual development and gender identity which is inappropriate for a CAP survey or discussion with the developing adolescents in our care. I have had interesting debates about this with friends who are "in the life" - ADULT friends whom I love, from all points of the spectrum. I would never, though, as a CP officer, start, prompt or allow such discussions with a minor - someone else's child, who is still in a highly impressionable developmental stage - without their parent being involved, as that is as clear a violation of our policy.


CAP should stay OUT of leading questions to adolescents, period, and should not be asking questions of them at all without prior parental ok. This is divisive. Also, since you asked, LSThiker, yeah, persistent identifier info on our cadets' IP addresses and email addresses of respondents are stored in survey monkey results by default, and the creators can decide what they want to do with them, as they are already associated with names via the NHQ database (check their kb help center, its all there). One of the questions about disabilities mentions autism as an example, and as I have a son with an autistic spectrum disorder, I have come to be very sensitized about how information on him is collected and treated, counted, and used, because of misuse of data in the past. Many who are teenagers, childless, or haven't had to deal with this specific situation, may not appreciate the sensitivity there either.


Thanks for those of you with sincere, thoughtful replies, teammates.

Spam

[LSThiker]

Sure, I get that, and yield the difference (and to your bio expertise, Sir).  Still inappropriate. Gender is physiological and is an easy two value answer - M/F - and is appropriate.

No.  Sex is the biological male or female status as assigned by our genetics (and really external genitalia).  Gender identity, however, refers to the internal sense of being male, female, or some other category.  Gender is based on social constructs, activities, behaviors, and other attributes as assigned by the society.  Sexual orientation, just for clarification, is what that person is attracted to or have sexual desires for.  These categories are all unrelated as they describe very specific details.

Whether the question is appropriate or not depends on what the question that needs to be answered.  Without that knowledge, it may or may not, be an appropriate question.   

[Spam]

Thanks for the reply. I was  following the prompt of the actual question language, which was phrased: "What is your gender" (vice "sex", which would have been correct), with "Transgender" the third option). So, they may be mixing terms.


We're getting too deep into semantics here, though. The issue is simple, and not complex - they have no business asking. CAP is not the place to prompt children to ask, answer, or discuss these questions of gender identity. The fact that someone thinks they can and should ask a question about it at all, and put Rand Corp. up to asking it, indicates that we have a problem that needs fixing.


Thanks,
Spam

[Ned]

(In a hotel room on my phone -I apologize for format, spelling, and brevity.)

In response to a few concerns, the survey is completely anonymous.  We do not at ask for, nor track, personal identifiying information.  We did not ask for name, CAPSN, or similar data.  Just charter number and some necessary demographic information like age, gender, and ethnicity.  We absolutely do not plant cookies or use any other technology to help track the data.

We don't ask for any sort of family income estimate.  We simply asked if they receive free or reduced price school lunches; which was one of the ways we allowed folks to self-identify as Priority 1 CEAP participants.  (and one of the available responses is "not sure.")

The entire survey is 37 questions and takes less than 10 minutes to complete.  The great majority of questions are devoted to assessing cadet-specific items, like how active they are with their squadron, college / tech school plans, amount of exercise, quality of diet, etc.  things that might be affected by the encampment experience. 

It appears that most of the sensitivity here has been raised by the first question:  "What is your gender?" And the provision of three possible responses.  It is worth remembering that the survey was prepared by the scientists at the Rand Corporation.  The world-class research and analysis think tank providing services to the armed forces.  And in this case, under a contract with the Air Force to examine our encampment program.

I may be missing something, but it does not seem unusual to ask a survey participant to self-identify their gender, especially when gender appears to be a factor in evaluating the encampment experience.  And like it or not, CAP has a small number of cadets that are transgendered.  They deserve our respect, and if they choose to anonymously self identify on our survey, the Rand folks believe it will improve their ability to provide the requested metrics.  Which should assist us in maintains this important funding resource for our cadets going forward.

Are there any other questions I can answer one letter at a time on my phone?

Ned Lee

[Flying Pig]

   has life really become this complicated? 

[abdsp51]

   has life really become this complicated?

No but I see where Spam is coming from not only as fellow CAP officer but also as a parent as well and I agree that this is something that should not have been sent to cadets. 

Lt Col Lee.  Was this survey sent to you and the rest of the DCP folks to look over before being sent out?  Because honestly if this org or any other org sent a survey to my children I'd be having some words for them.

If the AF and NHQ absolutely had to have the information this survey should have been sent to the parents to complete and a heads up should have been given to the subordinate commanders. 

Yes we must be stewards of the AF's money and yes they invested a good chunk into the CEAP which was awesome of them to do but I think that they can do a better job of sending their data collection attempts out. 

I am sure you have enough data from those who applied for the funds this past year to have a target demographic for whom to send the survey and I think a note to take from it and to send to RAND corp is to send this to parents and not the cadets. 

And is our emails and especially minor emails something that we are suppose to protect as part of PII?

[Alaric]

(In a hotel room on my phone -I apologize for format, spelling, and brevity.)

In response to a few concerns, the survey is completely anonymous.  We do not at ask for, nor track, personal identifiying information.  We did not ask for name, CAPSN, or similar data.  Just charter number and some necessary demographic information like age, gender, and ethnicity.  We absolutely do not plant cookies or use any other technology to help track the data.

We don't ask for any sort of family income estimate.  We simply asked if they receive free or reduced price school lunches; which was one of the ways we allowed folks to self-identify as Priority 1 CEAP participants.  (and one of the available responses is "not sure.")

The entire survey is 37 questions and takes less than 10 minutes to complete.  The great majority of questions are devoted to assessing cadet-specific items, like how active they are with their squadron, college / tech school plans, amount of exercise, quality of diet, etc.  things that might be affected by the encampment experience. 

It appears that most of the sensitivity here has been raised by the first question:  "What is your gender?" And the provision of three possible responses.  It is worth remembering that the survey was prepared by the scientists at the Rand Corporation.  The world-class research and analysis think tank providing services to the armed forces.  And in this case, under a contract with the Air Force to examine our encampment program.

I may be missing something, but it does not seem unusual to ask a survey participant to self-identify their gender, especially when gender appears to be a factor in evaluating the encampment experience.  And like it or not, CAP has a small number of cadets that are transgendered.  They deserve our respect, and if they choose to anonymously self identify on our survey, the Rand folks believe it will improve their ability to provide the requested metrics.  Which should assist us in maintains this important funding resource for our cadets going forward.

Are there any other questions I can answer one letter at a time on my phone?

Ned Lee

I have not seen this survey, but on every survey I have ever taken questions on race, gender, and disability have an option that says "I choose not to answer this question"

[FW]

I am grateful the Air Force has made the commitment to help cadets go to encampment.  I also understand the purpose of a survey to gauge future needs.  All surveys ask "personal" questions to understand sample size and determine credibility.  The Rand Corp. designed the survey, and the AF approved its distribution.  There is no way specific individual can be identified, nor does the Air Force care, however I do wonder why the survey wasn't directed to parents.  This is a survey which will determine financial support; not "other" reasons.  Maybe there is a reason why the Air Force wanted to survey cadets directly. They (USAF) are the benefactors, and they will determine the extent of their future contributions. 

In any event, the distribution of the survey was allowed by those above Mr. LaFond's pay grade.  Col Lee has given a good explanation of things.  Expect more of the same, as the Air Force is probably determining how far we will go as "Airmen".  This should be a good thing, as we are now part of the "Total Force"...

[Al Sayre]

I saw the advance copy a week or so ago, the distribution list was pretty extensive...

One thing to remember here is CAP's commitment to equal opportunity and non-discrimination.  Perhaps one of the reasons behind the gender identity questions is to confirm that we do not (did not) discriminate against trans-gendered cadets in the distribution of the taxpayer provided encampment funds.  I.E. "We can't send Jane to encampment, even though she's financially disadvantaged, because she was born as John. We aren't quite sure how to deal with that and don't want to be bothered with figuring it out."

JMHO...

[jeders]

I've honestly got to say that nothing mentioned as actually being on the survey sounds in any way inappropriate to me. It's all pretty much standard demographic information.

[THRAWN]

I've honestly got to say that nothing mentioned as actually being on the survey sounds in any way inappropriate to me. It's all pretty much standard demographic information.

And you missed the OP point. It was sent directly to cadets, no notice to the parents, and no notice to their commands. Bad form when dealing with children.

[CAPs1]

In the trash this time and there will not be a next.

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[CAPs1]

For those who may think people are jumping the gun on this my family takes this very seriously. There is all sorts of data mining from many sources going on in regards to education and the common core initiatives which I find concerning.

Per Survey Monkey Help Center "You can track how many people opened the invitation or clicked through to the survey, as well as who responded to your survey. Collectors by default store the IP addresses of respondents in survey results, which you may find useful for tracking respondents."

Results will not be shared, however RAND will know who and how someone responded and who did not. 

[LSThiker]

Thanks for the reply. I was  following the prompt of the actual question language, which was phrased: "What is your gender" (vice "sex", which would have been correct), with "Transgender" the third option). So, they may be mixing terms.


We're getting too deep into semantics here, though. The issue is simple, and not complex - they have no business asking. CAP is not the place to prompt children to ask, answer, or discuss these questions of gender identity. The fact that someone thinks they can and should ask a question about it at all, and put Rand Corp. up to asking it, indicates that we have a problem that needs fixing.

This is not a semantics discussion.  Rather you keep using the wrong words, which have been given rather specific definitions.  Their question, as you state,  "What is your gender" is not using the term gender incorrectly as evidenced by the responses.  It is specifically asking about gender and gender identity:  Male, Female, Transgender (although I would have expanded that last).

The question, which Ned has clarified as to the purpose, is appropriate.  The RAND Corp and the USAF (and probably NHQ), want to know specifically about transgender cadets.  Therefore, the only way to ascertain this information is to ask if they identify as male, female, or transgender. 

It is clear that you do not have a problem with the question "What is your gender?", but rather the fact they included the third response "transgender".  Had they only listed Male and Female, we would not be having this conversation.  However, the fact remains there are both seniors and cadets, as well as the general population, that identify as transgender, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.  This question is no more "invasive" than simply asking "What is your sex?". 

Gender dysphoria is something this country is currently in the process of recognizing and understanding.  It has been officially listed as a medical condition (ICD-9-CM:  302.85 or ICD-10:  64.8 and 64.9).  The US Military, the Prison System/Justice System, State Vital Records, etc are all now having to figure out how to sort the gender question out.  Frankly, I am not surprised CAP has had to step into this as it seems it has come up in the past before.  Nevertheless, CAP must remain an organization that promotes equality and non-discrimination. 

   has life really become this complicated? 

No, life has been complicated since about 3.8 BYA.  Humans have been dealing with life's complexity since about 200,000 years ago.  The problem is, we are just now understanding this tiny aspect of life, which makes it seem complicated.  Just for clarification, I am not saying that gender dysphoria is a tiny issue for a person, rather in the relative complexity of life, gender as a whole is a rather tiny portion of it.

[LSThiker]

and no notice to their commands.

Well, that seems to be a mixed bag as some commanders have reported not seeing it, while others have. 

[LSThiker]

For those who may think people are jumping the gun on this my family takes this very seriously. There is all sorts of data mining from many sources going on in regards to education and the common core initiatives which I find concerning.

Per Survey Monkey Help Center "You can track how many people opened the invitation or clicked through to the survey, as well as who responded to your survey. Collectors by default store the IP addresses of respondents in survey results, which you may find useful for tracking respondents."

Results will not be shared, however RAND will know who and how someone responded and who did not.

Not quite that RAND will know how someone responded.  It depends on how RAND has setup the survey, which the corporation is fully aware of Child Online Protection Laws, SurveyMonkey's Terms and Conditions, and many other legalities of survey collections.  As per SurveyMonkey Website:

Anonymity

It's up to each survey creator to decide to collect responses anonymously or to capture respondents' personal information. Respondents' personal information can be captured by the survey creator in two ways: by expressly asking you for your personal details (name, address, etc.) and by configuring the survey to automatically capture your IP address and/or email address.

SurveyMonkey provides several survey distribution methods called collectors. Every collector type has different settings that affect the survey-taking experience.
•All of collectors allow the survey creator to collect responses anonymously.
•All collection methods permit the tracking of respondent IP addresses.
•Anyone using the Email Invitation Collector could potentially track an email address on the response.

Survey creators may have their own privacy policies which apply to surveys that they create using our services and that detail how they handle your personally identifiable information.
•We encourage you to read any such policy, or to contact the survey creator directly to ask them any questions about their privacy practices.
•If the survey creator has not disclosed the collection method in the introduction of the survey, please contact them to verify if the response is anonymous.

Note that although survey creators may choose to collect responses anonymously, creators may still from include specific demographic survey questions that ask you for personally identifiable information. Review our Privacy Policy and how we handle respondents' personal information.

[arajca]

(In a hotel room on my phone -I apologize for format, spelling, and brevity.)

In response to a few concerns, the survey is completely anonymous.  We do not at ask for, nor track, personal identifiying information.  We did not ask for name, CAPSN, or similar data.  Just charter number and some necessary demographic information like age, gender, and ethnicity.  We absolutely do not plant cookies or use any other technology to help track the data.

With the information asked for, one can easily determine which cadet in a unit you are getting information about. Or at least narrow it to a couple.

I also did not receive any notice about this survey as a unit/cc.