BDU sleeve roll up

[JerseyDevil]

When is the official date pertaining to BDUs and the rolling up of their sleeves? I know squadron commanders may do whatever they want with this. But if i'm not mistaken their is a specific date. I looked online for a half hour and ended up with nothing. Isn't is a holiday?

[LSThiker]

Well I go year round with my sleeves down.

Better yet, what does CAPM 39-1 say about this?  Hint, you already answered your question with 30 minutes of negative searching.

[lordmonar]

There is no official policy in CAP or the USAF about when the sleeves can be rolled up.

Local commanders may dictate as they please.

[The14th]

I keep mine down due to a tattoo sleeve. And coming from the Army, we never rolled our BDU sleeves, so I'm bad at it.

[Shuman 14]

I keep mine down due to a tattoo sleeve. And coming from the Army, we never rolled our BDU sleeves, so I'm bad at it.

Lad, you're just not old enough to remember when we did roll our sleeves up. 

Heck I can remember at one point in time it was authorized to actually have the sleeves cut to "short sleeve" length and then have a false cuff, tab and buttons added to it.

It was a delightful summer garrison uniform.

[Sapper168]

When I was in the army we always rolled our sleeves in garrison during the dates determined by whoever up at the higher echelons.
  Now mine are always down to the tattoo sleeves, same boat as The14th.

[The14th]

I keep mine down due to a tattoo sleeve. And coming from the Army, we never rolled our BDU sleeves, so I'm bad at it.

Lad, you're just not old enough to remember when we did roll our sleeves up. 

Good point haha

[jhighman]

During my tenure in the Army, we were not authorized to roll our sleeves. The thought was that since our brothers and sisters were overseas in the desert with their sleeves down, we would show solidarity and keep ours down too. Don't know what if anything was officially said on the subject, but I was at several units where they said the same things.

[LSThiker]

During my tenure in the Army, we were not authorized to roll our sleeves. The thought was that since our brothers and sisters were overseas in the desert with their sleeves down, we would show solidarity and keep ours down too. Don't know what if anything was officially said on the subject, but I was at several units where they said the same things.

I wore both the BDUs and ACUs. ACUs were never authorized for sleeves up. The BDUs on the other hand were allowed sleeves up. Officially from the Army, there was no such solidarity order. That being said, units can be weird and the commanders wanted that. I do not know how many times I would hear "well I am 1st Cav and that is the way we do it". Just look at the variation in PT belts. Some bases and units would sictate yellow for enlisted, green for NCO, blue for officer. Then some required the rank to be pinned onto the belt. Then some required a vest with US ARMY and rank sewn on. Then some just cared if you had a belt. Some allowed either vest or belt.

That being said, AMEDD has published guidance that sleeves down is better in hot environments than sleeves up.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Can you post a link to that AMEDD statement?

I just wrote a message correcting my cadet commander who said in a message to the rest of the cadets that "CAP regs state that BDU sleeves should be up in the beginning of Spring."

I was surprised since he is a Cadet 1st Lt!

[LSThiker]

Can you post a link to that AMEDD statement?

I just wrote a message correcting my cadet commander who said in a message to the rest of the cadets that "CAP regs state that BDU sleeves should be up in the beginning of Spring."

I was surprised since he is a Cadet 1st Lt!

Well AMEDD guidance and a date do not go hand in hand.  There simply is no guidance by NHQ or the USAF regarding sleeves.

Nevertheless, I will look to see if I can find that guidance.  Considering that it has been over 10 years since the Army transitioned to the ACUs, a lot of the BDU guidance has since been removed.  In addition, since leaving the Army, I have deleted a lot of my old AMEDD files.  I will take a look to see if I can find the guidance though. 

[kwe1009]

Can you post a link to that AMEDD statement?

I just wrote a message correcting my cadet commander who said in a message to the rest of the cadets that "CAP regs state that BDU sleeves should be up in the beginning of Spring."

I was surprised since he is a Cadet 1st Lt!

One thing that I would recommend that you tell all of your cadets is to get away from saying, "CAP regs state..."  What comes after those 3 words are usually incorrect.  Always state the reg you are referring to, especially in official communications to the squadron.  It saves a lot of arguing and hurt feelings.  Whenever I hear one of my cadets say, "CAP regs sate"  I always ask, "which one?" 

Too many "CAP regs" are just people's opinions passed down and really have not basis in any reg.  The same can be said of the Air Force.  I can't count the number of times someone said, "Air Force regs state..." and it was a completely false statement and the person saying it was simply repeating what someone had told them without looking it up.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea...the "rolled sleeves in Spring" is about as regulatory as these:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4155.0

[TexasBEAST]

I don't have any AMEDD statements, but the GT task guide does say to roll BDU sleeves down for field work, to protect the wearer from all sorts of elements (including but not limited to the sun). That should be even more apropos for CAP purposes than any Army document, I would think.

Of course, I recall posting a TON of guidance from multiple different governmental and nongovernmental sources advising the use of widebrim (boonie) hats for sun protection over on the old CadetStuff boards, as well, but that was not met with welcoming arms at all... 

[abdsp51]

I've always worn sleeves down for the longest time especially since I have had to wear ABUs.  In CAP its a rarity I've rolled my sleeves.   It's funny when cadets offer to roll my sleeves and I politely decline and the look is priceless when they are informed that I and them will actually stay cooler with them down.  This was done even when I was in Az. 

[Storm Chaser]

I've been keeping my BDU sleeves down since I joined the Air Force almost 19 years ago. I know how to roll them up well and have taught many cadets, but I just prefer them down. I think they're more comfortable that way.

[TarRiverRat]

I hate having them rolled.  Feels like my circulation is being cut off in my arms.  Prefer them down and also less hassle as well.

[PHall]

I hate having them rolled.  Feels like my circulation is being cut off in my arms.  Prefer them down and also less hassle as well.

If you roll them "right" they don't feel like a tournequet!

[UWONGO2]

I've always worn sleeves down for the longest time especially since I have had to wear ABUs.  In CAP its a rarity I've rolled my sleeves.   It's funny when cadets offer to roll my sleeves and I politely decline and the look is priceless when they are informed that I and them will actually stay cooler with them down.  This was done even when I was in Az.

I've had far less success in the horribly hot & muggy midwest. I once made the mistake of removing my watch, it was apparently holding back a waterfall's worth of sweat.

To be fair, I suspect it would have been unpleasant with my sleeves up too.

[abdsp51]

I have always stayex cooler with them down regardless of where I was at.  Texas for all the trips there,  Mississippi, California,  Middle east and Korea.  You will stay cooler with sleeves down. 

[TexasBEAST]

It's a practical exercise in thermodynamics, to help the cadets (and SMs?) with their aerospace studies.

Sleeves down reflects solar radiation in order to reduce absorption thereof. But it also causes retention of internal body heat & humidity, by carrying around a layer of heated air just above the skin. Open cuffs can help mitigate that, and pit vents would help even further.

Sleeves up allows for some limited release of body heat & humidity (depending on how tightly they're rolled), while also allowing for some cooling via convection as wind blows over the exposed skin. But that same exposed skin is also vulnerable to absorption of solar radiation.

Generally speaking, it's supposed to be a whole lot more effective to minimize exposure to heat, than to allow oneself to be heated and then to try to reduce that excess heat (i.e., cool back off). Stay ahead of the problem, instead of playing catch-up. Be proactive, rather than reactive.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Texas,

If that is the case, why do we teach that in a survival situation in a desert to dig a hole in the sand, place a cover above us, then place another cover over that?

With your reasoning, those two covers retain heated air. And the best solution for cooling in the desert is not to have any cover at all!

[LSThiker]

Texas,

If that is the case, why do we teach that in a survival situation in a desert to dig a hole in the sand, place a cover above us, then place another cover over that?

With your reasoning, those two covers retain heated air. And the best solution for cooling in the desert is not to have any cover at all!

Who teaches that?  You should not be digging any holes in the desert as it has been found that you waste a tremendous amount of water in that exercise. This also includes digging a hole for a solar still. Also by digging a hole you not only waste water, but also reduce the airflow around you, which is vital in the body's ability to cool itself 

All Texas is saying is that it is better to keep the sun off of direct skin due to solar radiation heating you up. It is also to keep away sunburn, which can also dehydrate you.  One of the most important things to do in the desert is to find shade or at least create it.

Edit:  I wanted to mention that the solar still in the desert is a survival myth that has been told so many times that even some survival experts believe it.  However, the process of building a solar still (or simply digging a hole in the desert) wastes more water than what you will get back from it.  Therefore, it is a total waste.  This myth falls into the same category as moss on the North side of trees, drinking from cactus, sucking snake venom out, drinking pee will save you from dehydration, boiling water for 10 minutes, etc.

[LSThiker]

Can you post a link to that AMEDD statement?

I was unable to find the document that I wanted. Just unofficial documents and statements published by AMEDD.

[sarmed1]

...
Sleeves up allows for some limited release of body heat & humidity (depending on how tightly they're rolled), while also allowing for some cooling via convection as wind blows over the exposed skin. But that same exposed skin is also vulnerable to absorption of solar radiation....

actually sleeves down works more effectively for convection than sleeves up, perspiration evaporates quicker from the skin than from the moistened material of the BDU's, thus the effect time of convection lasts longer than from that of bare skin. 

This is one of my most annoyed summer CAP issues.  The thermometer hits 85 and people are throwing off the BDU blouse as a heat injury prevention tool.  (first its supposed to be based on WBGT, but whatever) secondly that "protection" is geared more toward strenous activity; sitting around in classroom or marching from point a to point b is not strenuous activity.  Maybe in an ES related environment I can see the argument, but you are countered easily on the other safety issue as far as abrasion and tick prevention issues vs just maintiang adequate hydration to decrease the heat injury potential.

mk

[Luis R. Ramos]

LST,

The US Army teaches it!

Page 51 of the US Army FM 21-76. Called the Below-Ground Desert Shelter. Also they teach the Open Desert Shelter.

These have been re-published with the same names in their publication FM 3-05.70, Survival, with a date of 2002. Which the US Army Directorate of Publications still has online. Not rescinded, which means it is still valid for them...

[LSThiker]

LST,

The US Army teaches it!

Not rescinded, which means it is still valid for them...

There are your key words "for them".  The Army has to be concerned about tactics as well:

Surviving and evading the enemy in an arid area depends
on what you know and how prepared you are for the
environmental conditions you will face. Determine what
equipment you will need, the tactics you will use, and the
environment's impact on them and you.

Last I checked, we are not surviving AND evading the enemy.

What I would do in a civilian situation is far different than what I would in a combat situation.  Since we are not evading an enemy, digging a hole is a waste of water.  Even in the manual it states "ration sweat, not water".  The open desert shelter, which is what I stating earlier, is the route that is most applicable to CAP and the US.   

[THRAWN]

...
Sleeves up allows for some limited release of body heat & humidity (depending on how tightly they're rolled), while also allowing for some cooling via convection as wind blows over the exposed skin. But that same exposed skin is also vulnerable to absorption of solar radiation....

actually sleeves down works more effectively for convection than sleeves up, perspiration evaporates quicker from the skin than from the moistened material of the BDU's, thus the effect time of convection lasts longer than from that of bare skin. 

This is one of my most annoyed summer CAP issues.  The thermometer hits 85 and people are throwing off the BDU blouse as a heat injury prevention tool.  (first its supposed to be based on WBGT, but whatever) secondly that "protection" is geared more toward strenous activity; sitting around in classroom or marching from point a to point b is not strenuous activity.  Maybe in an ES related environment I can see the argument, but you are countered easily on the other safety issue as far as abrasion and tick prevention issues vs just maintiang adequate hydration to decrease the heat injury potential.

mk

Even in an ES situation the AETC guidance doesnt support it. Keep the shirt on and the sleeves down. Prevents sunburn and environmental injuries.

[THRAWN]

LST,

The US Army teaches it!

Page 51 of the US Army FM 21-76. Called the Below-Ground Desert Shelter. Also they teach the Open Desert Shelter.

These have been re-published with the same names in their publication FM 3-05.70, Survival, with a date of 2002. Which the US Army Directorate of Publications still has online. Not rescinded, which means it is still valid for them...

21-76...Army humor. I may be wrong, but doesnt CAP have guidance on "survival"? Pretty sure diging a fighting/evasion position isnt in it...

[sarmed1]

In this case it isnt about  fighting position, the theory is that the sand in the pit is cooler than the sand outside the pit, the double covering is supposed to help keep the inside pit temp cool with some magic combination of reflection on the outer layer, and air movement cooling off the middle layer (im an not sure I buy this one, but whatever).  On the converse side it can get very cold at night, so the shelter then also functions to keep you warm in the overnight via body heat.

mk

[LSThiker]

In this case it isnt about  fighting position, the theory is that the sand in the pit is cooler than the sand outside the pit, the double covering is supposed to help keep the inside pit temp cool with some magic combination of reflection on the outer layer, and air movement cooling off the middle layer (im an not sure I buy this one, but whatever).  On the converse side it can get very cold at night, so the shelter then also functions to keep you warm in the overnight via body heat.

mk

It is not about a fighting position, but it is about an evasion position as well as a shelter position.  I have experience building this position and can tell you that I don't believe the stated temperatures in cooling.  The materials that I had at hand turned the thing into an oven for a daytime shelter.  The amount of work that goes into digging into hard desert/rocky terrain is not worth the effort (wasted water) or the savings (temperature).

[PHall]

In this case it isnt about  fighting position, the theory is that the sand in the pit is cooler than the sand outside the pit, the double covering is supposed to help keep the inside pit temp cool with some magic combination of reflection on the outer layer, and air movement cooling off the middle layer (im an not sure I buy this one, but whatever).  On the converse side it can get very cold at night, so the shelter then also functions to keep you warm in the overnight via body heat.

mk

It is not about a fighting position, but it is about an evasion position as well as a shelter position.  I have experience building this position and can tell you that I don't believe the stated temperatures in cooling.  The materials that I had at hand turned the thing into an oven for a daytime shelter.  The amount of work that goes into digging into hard desert/rocky terrain is not worth the effort (wasted water) or the savings (temperature).

The main thing you want to do is get out of the sun. And the less energy and water you consume in doing that, the better.

[TexasBEAST]

Texas,

If that is the case, why do we teach that in a survival situation in a desert to dig a hole in the sand, place a cover above us, then place another cover over that?

I believe that the "cover" they're talking about is some sort of poncho, parachute, or tarp material. That is large-surface-area stuff. The large-surface area is supposed to provide shade over your entire person, which serves to REFLECT SOLAR RADIATION. (Think my blaze orange boonie on a much, MUCH larger scale!)

And it's not right up against your skin like clothing, such as the BDU blouse, so you can potentially get some wind current in between that material and your skin, and between the two layers of material, which provides for convective heat loss.

With your reasoning, those two covers retain heated air. And the best solution for cooling in the desert is not to have any cover at all!

No sir, with my reasoning, tight-fitting clothing (such as tightly-rolled sleeves or the fabric that's buched up underneath one's LBE or LBV) is what retains heat and humidity.

The best solution is to block solar radiation. Go sleeves down, and unbutton the front and the cuffs. Dump or loosen your belt. Don a boonie. And pitch a tarp shelter overhead, too. Block that sun!

[TexasBEAST]

Edit:  I wanted to mention that the solar still in the desert is a survival myth that has been told so many times that even some survival experts believe it.  However, the process of building a solar still (or simply digging a hole in the desert) wastes more water than what you will get back from it.  Therefore, it is a total waste.

Do you mean that when you dig a hole in the desert floor, water doesn't just magically appear out of thin (hot) air? 

I've gotten some solar stills to work before, but not in the desert. They were in humid temperate forest regions (Boy Scout Camps). The ground and air were both moist.

But they still didn't produce much. We're talking a desperation measure, for sure.

[TexasBEAST]

actually sleeves down works more effectively for convection than sleeves up, perspiration evaporates quicker from the skin than from the moistened material of the BDU's, thus the effect time of convection lasts longer than from that of bare skin.

I guess it depends on how we define "more effectively". That rapid evaporation means rapid, dynamic transportation of both heat and humidity away from the skin. I'd call that pretty darn effective!

Wearing sweaty, wet clothes around will slow the rate of evaporation of body moisture, as well as slow the rate of convection of body heat away, because the soaking wet clothes serve as a warm, wet blanket. Only the outermost moisture and heat can actually be convected away. Meanwhile, all of the rest of that heat and humidity against the skin stays right where it is. (Hello, skin rash.) Yes, the rate of evaporation is slowed, which mean the rate of convection is slowed, but you also retain the heat and humidity from your perspiration much longer. Dragging out the process of releasing heat and humidity from your clothes is not gonna help you to release heat and humidity from your body. It's gonna work against you, won't it?

I know that when I run in SE TX, with 85 degrees and 70% humidity, I cool off better going shirtless than I do with wet UnderArmour. Yes, I have to time my runs so that I've got shade by the trees from the direct sunlight. But dumping the soaking wet layer of fabric and letting the sweaty skin directly vent into atmosphere is the best way for me to beat the heat while working out.

[sarmed1]

I believe the process is somewhat dependent on the current humidity.....lower humidity and high air temp with slight breeze the ideal for the concept.....NM and AZ good.....TX, LA, FL...maybe not so much

MK

[SarDragon]

If you want to reflect the "solar radiation", you need to use light colored, or silvered materials. Dark stuff retains the heat, and just makes things warmer. A camo poncho makes a less than satisfactory shade in still air.

As for "solar radiation", you need to remember that we're dealing with two types here - ultraviolet, which gives you a sunburn, and infrared, which makes things warm/hot. Each has different effects on the body, and should be treated specifically.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Oh my God! Texas, you will bring the CAP Inquisition! You mentioned the b____e word!

...Don a boonie..

[AlphaSigOU]

Oh my God! Texas, you will bring the CAP Inquisition! You mentioned the b____e word!

...Don a boonie..

That is the word that will curve your spine, grow hair on your palms, and bring us - God forbid - peace without honor! 

[TexasBEAST]

I believe the process is somewhat dependent on the current humidity.....lower humidity and high air temp with slight breeze the ideal for the concept.....NM and AZ good.....TX, LA, FL...maybe not so much

MK

Yep. That's the part that UnderArmour, et al, fail to include in the fine print. Their garments are really only effective for specific climates, even though the companies market to pretty much all of them.

In more extreme climes, it's best to avoid overexposure in the first place, rather than depending on some reactive tricks or products or materials to bail you out, after the fact.

Oh my God! Texas, you will bring the CAP Inquisition! You mentioned the b____e word!

...Don a boonie..

That is the word that will curve your spine, grow hair on your palms, and bring us - God forbid - peace without honor! 

Boonie, boonie, BOOOOOOO-NIEEEEEE....

Or that old Billy Idol standby, "Boonie Boonie!"

Or like the creepy little Budweiser penguin from the '90s might say, "Boonie...boonie-boo..."

[Luis R. Ramos]

About twenty or so years ago, I was working as a counselor in a non-CAP summer camp in Bemidji, Minnesota. We had been assigned to clean some cabins. I had bought a Boonie, and put some pine twigs on it. Riding in the van back, some in the van were oohing and aaahing at my lil hat, when all of a sudden the girl sitting beside me yells you have a tick!

My first reaction was to flick the boonie towards the floor inside the van. Even faster and louder everyone yelled NOT HERE!!!

So I flicked it towards the window opening, I had a window seat...

Along with the tick, out went the pine twigs and leaves. What a downer!

[TexasBEAST]

So, basically, you're telling us that you used to be a <"Tick Magnet">?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Chick Magnet sounds so much better but, yes, I admit to being a Tick Magnet...

[Mets1986]

This is on the cap Knowledgebase

There is no longer set dates for seasonal uniform changes or for rolling up BDU sleeves. The US Air Force abandoned the policy of seasonal uniform changes for many reasons, among them the cost of uniforms and the wide variation of climate in the country. Wings or regions may still have some seasonal uniform policies but generally the decision of wearing long or short sleeves or whether to roll up BDU sleeves should be left up to individual members unless they are participating in some type of military formation such as a parade where uniform appearance is important. Note: If BDU sleeves are rolled up, the correct procedures must be followed to attain a professional appearance.

See Chapter 5 - Working and Utility Uniforms for further guidance of CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual 26 June 2014.

5.1.1. Men's and Women's Battle Dress Uniform. (Figure 5.1)
5.1.1.1. Shirt (Long Sleeve). Cotton and nylon twill or rip-stop cotton; single-breasted with four bellow pockets with flaps; straight-cut bottom sleeve tabs, and side body panels with or without take-up tabs. Only the Woodland Green camouflage pattern is authorized. Long sleeves may be rolled up; if rolled up, sleeve material must match shirt and will touch or come within one inch of forearms when arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. BDU shirt may be removed in the immediate work area. A black crew neck T-shirt will be worn. Military creases are prohibited.


Maj Dunn