What constitutes "active participation"?

[lordmonar]

CAPR 35-3 clearly states that "[l]ack of interest demonstrated by failure to attend three successive regular meetings
without an acceptable excuse" is cause for cadet membership termination. The regulation may not force you to terminate their membership, but if they don't have a reasonable reason for not participating, then why do you want to keep them on the books?

I don't want to keep them on the books....I also don't want to go through the hassle of 2b'ing them.    If someone wants to go through the process of cleaning up their books....okay.  The regs support it.  I'm not going to go out of my way to stop them.    I simply raised the question if the administrative effort was actually beneficial in the long run.

Cadet X....does not show up or maybe does show up.....but just enough to dodge 35-3 but has not progressed twice in the last year......sure you can 2b him.   So cost benefits.   Pro....your books are clean.  You have one less member not safety compliant every month.   Con.....admin over head.....someone has to keep track, double check to make sure Cadet X did in fact miss those three meetings....this should happen on a recurring basis....yearly?  Quarterly? Monthly?  Weekly?   More time your CP/Admin/Personnel officers has to take from doing other work.   Then there is the 2b Process itself.   Okay maybe 5 minutes to do the paperwork.....then you got CC wing, send a certified copy the member...now you are spending money.   Then....low and behold the member challenges it.   Now you got wing forming a board...that's more time spent.  Now the commander of the unit has to do more paperwork and spend more time justifying to the board why he wants to do it.    Okay...so the board agrees with you and approves the 2b....but Cadet X's parents are those types of parents....and now they want to go to the MARB.....again more time spend by CAP members outside your unit.  More time you spend doing paperwork.     The MARB decides that all is good and Cadet X is now a former member.....forever.    You move Cadet X's file to the inactive file.  But now Cadet X is not just a former member who dropped out.  He is a former member who was kicked out and hates CAP and all its doings!

OR

You see that Cadet X has stopped coming to meetings.  You make a valid effort to find out what the deal is.  And then when Cadet X's membership expires you move his records to the inactive file and move on.
 

My personnel officer is already busy.   I'm not going to ask them to do more work....and open a can of worms for so little pay back.

Sure.....we sometimes need to hitch up our pants and do the hard conversation.  We should not be afraid to what is right because we might have to justify ourselves to HHQ on the issues.    But likewise we need to pace ourselves and choose our battles.   2b'ing someone is a lot of work.   It should be reserved for those who really need it.

I certainly can't justify adding it to my work load simply to make the books look good.

[AirAux]

Concur.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Great, now I can look at the QCUA next year, and know that Nellis Composite isn't "all that" because a large number of those cadets are not actually active.

What's the big fear of 2B'ing a member? My best friend 2B'd himself when he lost interest in CAP.

IT. IS. A. FORM.

Here are the reasons for cadet terminations:
Voluntary Resignation
Married
Joined Armed Forces
Failed to Progress Satisfactorily in the CAP Cadet Program
Failure to Maintain Acceptable Academic Record in School
Dropped out of School
Lack of Interest (failure to attend three meetings without acceptable excuse)
Moved from the area, Did not request
Misconduct

I already stated our cadets get the choice to resign if they tell us they no longer are interested, before they are terminated for other causes.

We've yet to have a cadet fight a 2B. You know why? Cadets get plenty of chances NOT to be terminated. It's a non-issue. I've also heard nothing bad from those cadets down the line, primarily because when they do resign/get removed, they either made the choice, or made the choice not to care any more. Simple. As. That.


For Reference: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F002B_E249721A9E98E.pdf

[AirAux]

Because when we investigate and find out that cadets are dropping other cadets for push ups and you either have or should have knowledge of it, we will be having serious talks with you.  These things can get ugly quicker than you think.  Are you making the cadets aware that they have the right to appeal your 2B?

[jeders]

Because when we investigate and find out that cadets are dropping other cadets for push ups and you either have or should have knowledge of it, we will be having serious talks with you.  These things can get ugly quicker than you think.  Are you making the cadets aware that they have the right to appeal your 2B?

And that has what to do with anything being discussed here?

To the OP, if the cadet, parents, and squadron staff go in with eyes wide open about the cadets participation, then participating in every other meeting would be active participation. Is he going to get as much out of the program as someone who is there nearly every week, probably not. Is he going to stick around very long, entirely possible that he won't. However, this cadet may also find that CAP is really his thing and end up participating more in order to get out of it what he wants. So I see nothing wrong with accepting him and letting him try to make a go of it.

As to the matter of 2B'ing inactive members, I see nothing wrong with that when they become a drain on the unit. However, Eclipse, I see the financial contribution that you are always so eager to dismiss as being helpful to the organization as a whole and to the individuals who are active.

[BHartman007]

You can terminate a cadet for getting married?

[jeders]

You can terminate a cadet for getting married?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You can terminate a cadet for getting married?

Of course. Why not?

[lordmonar]

Great, now I can look at the QCUA next year, and know that Nellis Composite isn't "all that" because a large number of those cadets are not actually active.

What's the big fear of 2B'ing a member? My best friend 2B'd himself when he lost interest in CAP.

IT. IS. A. FORM.

Here are the reasons for cadet terminations:
Voluntary Resignation
Married
Joined Armed Forces
Failed to Progress Satisfactorily in the CAP Cadet Program
Failure to Maintain Acceptable Academic Record in School
Dropped out of School
Lack of Interest (failure to attend three meetings without acceptable excuse)
Moved from the area, Did not request
Misconduct

I already stated our cadets get the choice to resign if they tell us they no longer are interested, before they are terminated for other causes.

We've yet to have a cadet fight a 2B. You know why? Cadets get plenty of chances NOT to be terminated. It's a non-issue. I've also heard nothing bad from those cadets down the line, primarily because when they do resign/get removed, they either made the choice, or made the choice not to care any more. Simple. As. That.


For Reference: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F002B_E249721A9E98E.pdf

I'm not afraid of doing a 2b.   Done several in fact in my career.   I just don't see the need to do a 2b for an "empty shirt".

Like I said....you want to......go ahead.   I think you are are not doing yourself any favors....but it is your time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Great, now I can look at the QCUA next year, and know that Nellis Composite isn't "all that" because a large number of those cadets are not actually active.

What's the big fear of 2B'ing a member? My best friend 2B'd himself when he lost interest in CAP.

IT. IS. A. FORM.

Here are the reasons for cadet terminations:
Voluntary Resignation
Married
Joined Armed Forces
Failed to Progress Satisfactorily in the CAP Cadet Program
Failure to Maintain Acceptable Academic Record in School
Dropped out of School
Lack of Interest (failure to attend three meetings without acceptable excuse)
Moved from the area, Did not request
Misconduct

I already stated our cadets get the choice to resign if they tell us they no longer are interested, before they are terminated for other causes.

We've yet to have a cadet fight a 2B. You know why? Cadets get plenty of chances NOT to be terminated. It's a non-issue. I've also heard nothing bad from those cadets down the line, primarily because when they do resign/get removed, they either made the choice, or made the choice not to care any more. Simple. As. That.


For Reference: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F002B_E249721A9E98E.pdf

I'm not afraid of doing a 2b.   Done several in fact in my career.   I just don't see the need to do a 2b for an "empty shirt".

Like I said....you want to......go ahead.   I think you are are not doing yourself any favors....but it is your time.

I don't get my ass chewed for cadet safety compliance on cadets I'll never see again.
I won't get my ass chewed by the encampment commander when he runs a report of XX cadets who need encampment in the group, but we only get 1/5 of those to show up to encampment.
I'll get to enjoy the QCUA "Enrollment" point, knowing that the magic 35 cadets are actual cadets, not electrons on eservices.

[lordmonar]

Ok. 
I got no problem saying to safety.  They are not here.
I got no problem telling the encampment commander he is free to contact those cadets himself.
I don care about the QUA it has little benefit to me and my program.
So like I said.   If you want to go ahead.   But don't try to say that my unit is some how not doing it right.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ok. 
I got no problem saying to safety.  They are not here.
I got no problem telling the encampment commander he is free to contact those cadets himself.
I don care about the QUA it has little benefit to me and my program.
So like I said.   If you want to go ahead.   But don't try to say that my unit is some how not doing it right.

What do the dead numbers do as a benefit? Besides making a more impressive sounding number that is?

[lordmonar]

Nothing never said that they do.  Simply said that fixing the dead numbers does not add any benefit worth the effort and could make more problems.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Nothing never said that they do.  Simply said that fixing the dead numbers does not add any benefit worth the effort and could make more problems.

I've listed benefits. YMMV.
I still don't see any problems.

[lordmonar]

Cool like I said its your time to waste. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cool like I said its your time to waste.

I spent a good half hour compiling data, looking up contact info, emailing, and prepping to call people who are either:
Not safety current
Not progressing
Haven't been to a meeting in a while, and haven't been in touch.


I've probably got another half hour of phone calls to do on this subject.


It's probably not going to be the last time contacting the same people. Probably.


OR.




CAPF2B, and done.

[BHartman007]

You can terminate a cadet for getting married?

Of course. Why not?

...why would you? That doesn't make any sense.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You can terminate a cadet for getting married?

Of course. Why not?

...why would you? That doesn't make any sense.

Same reason cadets can't be cadets once they go into the military. We treat the 20 year old, 11 month old Spaatz cadet as a child/minor/non-adult/etc because of their status as a cadet.


If you're in the military, being a cadet has zero benefit (and you have zero time) for you. If you're married...the presumption being that you're now living with another adult, acting like an adult, and dealing with adult life, you don't quite fit into the role of a cadet.


IIRC you can't have dependents if you go to a Service Academy either. And the AF didn't want to let my cousin enlist because he was 18 with a kid. That's life.

[lordmonar]

So once a month you spend an hour dealing with no shows.   Then another 30. Minutes doing the 2b.   And the result is avoiding two conversations that should not even be taking place.

And you do this every month? 

[Майор Хаткевич]

So once a month you spend an hour dealing with no shows.   Then another 30. Minutes doing the 2b.   And the result is avoiding two conversations that should not even be taking place.

And you do this every month?

Who said it's done once a month? And 30 minutes for a 2B? What 2 conversations?