Black Fleece Jacket

[Papabird]

I received my Rothco black Level 3 ECWCS black fleece jacket today.  And I have to say, it is a good coat.  Has anyone else bothered to buy one of these yet and if so, what is your experience?  I find the quality acceptable for the duty (light duty usage) and pretty warm.

Now, I have to break out my sewing machine and black "hook & loop" fasteners and get the Name tape/CAP tape/2x2 Grade on the coat.  BTW, the H&L area is much smaller on the coat than on the BDUs, so you may want to make sure you have the right length before sewing.   

I know that Rothco has a bad name around here, but for my use (once or twice a month) paying more for something that I am not going to take into the field isn't really needed.  I am only planning on using this for the "Duty" uniform or the rare time I am in the Corp Uni.  Most other times I am in USAF uniforms and use the approved coats/jackets.

[Eclipse]

Is this what you bought?



I've got an old fleece in the closet (actually a jacket liner) that I'm going to repurpose.

By pure coincidence, it looks nearly identical to the one in the manual, whenever I can get around to doing some sewing.

[Slim]

I bought that exact same jacket, no complaints so far.  Despite the brand, the quality seems to be ok, it's plenty warm for about 95% of what I'd wear it for here, and the price (~$40) wasn't too bad.

I also have a plain black fleece jacket liner that I considered using, but frankly, I wear that jacket all the time in street clothes.  If it was a permanent closet dweller, I would have; I just didn't want to sew the velcro to something I wear frequently.

[PHall]

I have the black fleece that the Air Force issued me in 2003. Back then is was the liner for the Gortex Parka.
The fuzzy materal holds velcro patches no problem. You may not have to sew on velcro loop material.

[Eclipse]

I have the black fleece that the Air Force issued me in 2003. Back then is was the liner for the Gortex Parka.
The fuzzy materal holds velcro patches no problem. You may not have to sew on velcro loop material.

That's 30 minutes I can use better!

[Papabird]

Is this what you bought?



I've got an old fleece in the closet (actually a jacket liner) that I'm going to repurpose.

By pure coincidence, it looks nearly identical to the one in the manual, whenever I can get around to doing some sewing.

Yep, that is exactly it.  I really like the side vents.

[GroundHawg]

While disappointed that I cant wear my better quality one with the BBDU anymore, I ordered my reg conforming one today. For $25 Im not expecting much.

[Eclipse]

"reg conforming?"

Just about anything with the words "black" and "fleece" in the description will suffice.

"6.1.12.2. Fleece will be acquired commercially, and will be similar in design and
construction to the USAF-style Sage Green Fleece. Members will wear fleeces that only have a very
small or no manufacturer's emblem that is externally visible."

[LTC Don]

"reg conforming?"

Just about anything with the words "black" and "fleece" in the description will suffice.

"6.1.12.2. Fleece will be acquired commercially, and will be similar in design and
construction to the USAF-style Sage Green Fleece. Members will wear fleeces that only have a very
small or no manufacturer's emblem that is externally visible."

So, the surplus Polartec 300 black fleece jackets scattered all over eBay are acceptable or not?

[Eclipse]

Why not?

[GroundHawg]

I will not be adding Velcro attachments on my Triple Aught Designs anytime soon. I will gladly drop the $25 on a Rothco or Condor rather than destroy a $400 jacket. Its just easier this way.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I shan't be purchasing a black fleece jacket, as I am quite pleased with my black A-2 and can get a blue M-65 for pennies in comparison.

However, I would like to find a blue L2B (lightweight, usually with epaulettes) for the days when one needs a jacket but it's not cold enough for my A-2 or even an MA-1.



One can very easily find MA-1 and CWU-45 for low prices but finding L2B's for anything close to under $100 is nearly impossible.

Again, I wish a black/dark blue "wooly pully" were authorised for the G/W kit.

[Eclipse]

I will not be adding Velcro attachments on my Triple Aught Designs anytime soon. I will gladly drop the $25 on a Rothco or Condor rather than destroy a $400 jacket. Its just easier this way.

If I ever spent $400 on outerwear, my wife would want to know what I'd be doing with 5 jackets.

[SARDOC]

I will not be adding Velcro attachments on my Triple Aught Designs anytime soon. I will gladly drop the $25 on a Rothco or Condor rather than destroy a $400 jacket. Its just easier this way.

If I ever spent $400 on outerwear, my wife would want to know what I'd be doing with 5 jackets.

If I ever spent $400 on outerwear, my wife would want to know what I'd be doing for my Part-time job that I'll have to get to pay for said jacket.

[Eclipse]

So...

What the below actually says is that the velcro for the grade insingina is supposed to be ultramarine
(good luck finding that), and "2" squared".   (?!)

One would assume that the grade insigniana should be configured the same as the field uniforms with
a 1/8" blue around the insingina.

For majors and Lt Cols, that's ~1-3/8 x 1-3/8.

Is the intention here that it be a "2x2" square of velcro to accommodate larger insignia like Captain?  Or are members supposed to cut the insignia
larger to make it 2x2" square?

The fleece's diagram in 39-1 could be interpreted either way, the Rothco photo above looks to be a 2"x 2" square.

Interestingly, I can't find any reference to the actual measurement spec for field insignia where it says how much blue to
leave.  All I can find is diagram A5-2 on Page 125.  No diagram, but the "1/8" is all over the document.


"6.1.12.3. The black fleece is not authorized to be worn solely over a t-shirt, thermal
underwear, etc. When worn as an outergarment, it will have a cloth name tape in ultramarine with white
letters (only last name will be used) mounted on black Velcro between the zipper and sleeve seam on the
wearer's right chest. It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and
centered above the last name tape on the wearer's right chest. A "Civil Air Patrol" ultramarine blue tape
with white letters will be mounted on black Velcro even with the last name tape and centered between the
zipper and sleeve seam on the wearer's left chest.

6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia. Officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. The General Officer rank
will be positioned horizontally with a point of each star pointing upward. General Officers will wear 1-
inch stars. General Officers unable to wear 1-inch stars will wear ¾-inch stars. The Colonel rank insignia
is worn with the eagle's beak pointed towards the wearer's right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing
forward) and will be centered horizontally. The stem of the Major and Lieutenant Colonel rank will point
toward ground. The long end of the Flight Officer, Lieutenant and Captain bars will be positioned
vertically. NCOs will wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material. "

Edit: fixed a couple typos.

[pierson777]

So...

What the below actually says is that the velcro for the grade insingina is supposed to be ultramarine
(good luck finding that), and "2" squared".   (?!)

One would assume that the grade insigniana should be configured the same as the field uniforms with
a 1/8" blue around the insingina.

For majors and Lt Cols, that's ~1-3/8 x 1-3/8.

Is the intention here that it be a "2x2" square of velcro to accommodate larger insignia like Captain?  Or are members supposed to cut the insignia
larger to make it 2x2" square?

The fleece's diagram in 39-1 could be interpreted either way, the Rothco photo above looks to be a 2"x 2" square.

Interestingly, I can't find any reference to the actual measurement spec for field insignia where it says how much blue to
leave.  All I can find is diagram A5-1 on Page


"6.1.12.3. The black fleece is not authorized to be worn solely over a t-shirt, thermal
underwear, etc. When worn as an outergarment, it will have a cloth name tape in ultramarine with white
letters (only last name will be used) mounted on black Velcro between the zipper and sleeve seam on the
wearer's right chest. It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and
centered above the last name tape on the wearer's right chest. A "Civil Air Patrol" ultramarine blue tape
with white letters will be mounted on black Velcro even with the last name tape and centered between the
zipper and sleeve seam on the wearer's left chest.

6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia. Officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. The General Officer rank
will be positioned horizontally with a point of each star pointing upward. General Officers will wear 1-
inch stars. General Officers unable to wear 1-inch stars will wear ¾-inch stars. The Colonel rank insignia
is worn with the eagle's beak pointed towards the wearer's right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing
forward) and will be centered horizontally. The stem of the Major and Lieutenant Colonel rank will point
toward ground. The long end of the Flight Officer, Lieutenant and Captain bars will be positioned
vertically. NCOs will wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material. "

This is ridiculous.  According to this the fleece must have black velcro for the name tapes and ultramarine blue for the 2" rank patch.  I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.  This must be a mistake from when the DRAFT version we edited into the final version.  In the DRAFT version, it said dark blue velcro for the rank 2" rank patch and oddly enough it didn't have any color requirement for the tapes.  This was of course when the draft version was written so as to change all of the ultra marine blue tapes and patches to dark blue.  This change obviously wasn't instituted, and we kept the ultramarine blue, including on the new black fleece. 

I suspect whoever edited the "dark blue" tapes to "ultramarine blue" just mistakenly changed it for the color of velcro.  Personally, I think it should be black velcro for tapes and 2" rank patch.  Black velcro is the color that many of the commercially sold fleece jackets already come with, it's the most widely available color available locally, and it looks the best for when you want to wear the fleece jacket "sterilized" (removed tapes and ranks) to wear other than with CAP uniform.

I think the uniform board should be able to consider changes like this through email exchange, approve them, edit the manual, and publish the corrected version.   There's sure to be other small mistakes that can be addressed as they're discovered.  Hopefully these errors can be fixed without waiting several years for an entire rewrite.  This would be preferable to Interim Change Letters like we had to put up for the last decade.

[Eclipse]

It could be an errant use of a global replace - that's why these things should go through
multiple public comment and use 3rd parties to edit things, especially when something is actually
new.

I went with the 2" square velcro.  The result is the grade insignia has a nice 1/4" black frame all the way around it,
versus it just being flush with the velcro like the nametapes, but at least I'll look the same as anyone else wearing a commercially
sewn jacket.

[pierson777]

I shan't be purchasing a black fleece jacket, as I am quite pleased with my black A-2 and can get a blue M-65 for pennies in comparison.

However, I would like to find a blue L2B (lightweight, usually with epaulettes) for the days when one needs a jacket but it's not cold enough for my A-2 or even an MA-1.



One can very easily find MA-1 and CWU-45 for low prices but finding L2B's for anything close to under $100 is nearly impossible.

Again, I wish a black/dark blue "wooly pully" were authorised for the G/W kit.

I don't really think the L2B meets the description of "similar to" the MA-1 or CWU 45/P or CWU 36/P "in design", because it has the epaulets.  I would never tell anyone not to wear it, but I would advice against buying the L2B with epaulets if you could just as easily buy the one without epaulets.  If you want a lighter-weight flight jacket, that's what the CWU-36/P is.  It's sometimes referred to as the summer weight jacket, but that's probably not an official name.  I was lucky enough to pick one up from craigslist seller for $25, and it's great for cool mornings and evenings, and it takes up less room in the cockpit when wearing it.  It look s just like the CWU-45/P except it lighter weight.  However, I don't know if anyone makes them in blue.

As far as a "woolly pully" for the G/W kit, do you mean a pullover sweater for the Aviator Shirt Uniform?  You can wear any "appropriate civilian outer garment."  I guess that means you can wear as sweater, as long as it's appropriate.

4.2.6.10. Outergarments. Appropriate civilian outergarments are authorized as well as the black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, dark blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, the USAF-stylecardigan sweater, and the black fleece.

[Storm Chaser]

So...

What the below actually says is that the velcro for the grade insingina is supposed to be ultramarine
(good luck finding that), and "2" squared".   (?!)

One would assume that the grade insigniana should be configured the same as the field uniforms with
a 1/8" blue around the insingina.

For majors and Lt Cols, that's ~1-3/8 x 1-3/8.

Is the intention here that it be a "2x2" square of velcro to accommodate larger insignia like Captain?  Or are members supposed to cut the insignia
larger to make it 2x2" square?

The fleece's diagram in 39-1 could be interpreted either way, the Rothco photo above looks to be a 2"x 2" square.

Interestingly, I can't find any reference to the actual measurement spec for field insignia where it says how much blue to
leave.  All I can find is diagram A5-2 on Page 125.  No diagram, but the "1/8" is all over the document.


"6.1.12.3. The black fleece is not authorized to be worn solely over a t-shirt, thermal
underwear, etc. When worn as an outergarment, it will have a cloth name tape in ultramarine with white
letters (only last name will be used) mounted on black Velcro between the zipper and sleeve seam on the
wearer's right chest. It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and
centered above the last name tape on the wearer's right chest. A "Civil Air Patrol" ultramarine blue tape
with white letters will be mounted on black Velcro even with the last name tape and centered between the
zipper and sleeve seam on the wearer's left chest.

6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia. Officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. The General Officer rank
will be positioned horizontally with a point of each star pointing upward. General Officers will wear 1-
inch stars. General Officers unable to wear 1-inch stars will wear ¾-inch stars. The Colonel rank insignia
is worn with the eagle's beak pointed towards the wearer's right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing
forward) and will be centered horizontally. The stem of the Major and Lieutenant Colonel rank will point
toward ground. The long end of the Flight Officer, Lieutenant and Captain bars will be positioned
vertically. NCOs will wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material. "

Edit: fixed a couple typos.

You're reading too much into it. The grade insignia is supposed to be 2" x 2", regardless of the extra blue background exposed. That's how the Air Force fleece jacket insignia is worn (except for general officer insignias), which was used as a model for the CAP fleece jacket.

http://www.shopmyexchange.com/browse/military/air-force-uniforms/rank-insignia/officer-fleece-jacket-velcro-rank/_/N-104807

[Eclipse]

You're reading too much into it. The grade insignia is supposed to be 2" x 2", regardless of the extra blue background exposed. That's how the Air Force fleece jacket insignia is worn, which was used as a model for the CAP fleece jacket.

Cite please.

There's nowhere in 39-1 that's even hinted.

[Storm Chaser]

You're reading too much into it. The grade insignia is supposed to be 2" x 2", regardless of the extra blue background exposed. That's how the Air Force fleece jacket insignia is worn, which was used as a model for the CAP fleece jacket.

Cite please.

There's nowhere in 39-1 that's even hinted.

You already cited it. You may want to reread it.

[Eclipse]

You're reading too much into it. The grade insignia is supposed to be 2" x 2", regardless of the extra blue background exposed. That's how the Air Force fleece jacket insignia is worn, which was used as a model for the CAP fleece jacket.

Cite please.

There's nowhere in 39-1 that's even hinted.

You already cited it. You may want to reread it.

I did, and I checked the entirety of 39-1, not a hint.

The above mess indicates ultramarine velcro and says nothing about the size of the insignia itself,
and the only reference to insignia size in this regard is about general's stars when 1" versions won't fit.

Whatever the intention here might have been, it never made it to the page, and expecting members
to interpret that sentence above is ridiculous, especially when the garment itself is >not< uniform,
nor is the insignia.

Also, since "velcro" is a commercial brand name for hook and loop fasteners, as long as we're fixing things,
it's either "VELCRO®" or "Velcro^®" not "velcro".

[Storm Chaser]

The language in CAPM 39-1 was taken from AFI 36-2903. I admit that considering the way things are in CAP (vs. the Air Force), they probably could've been more specific. The uniform committee should've anticipate the likes of Eclipse and not leave anything open to interpretation. I anticipate that Vanguard will start selling these (if they haven't already) and will set the "standard", sort of speak.

Either way, I've attached a picture of a USAF fleece jack to illustrate what I believe was the intention in CAPM 39-1. If you disagree, oh well; there's nothing I can do.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Eclipse]

Wow - I took my time putting the h&l's on and thought mine looks torn up because it doesn't lay
perfect on the hanger, that above looks like it was done with craft glue by "Mrs. Henderson's 4th grade Sewing Bees".

[pierson777]

You're reading too much into it. The grade insignia is supposed to be 2" x 2", regardless of the extra blue background exposed. That's how the Air Force fleece jacket insignia is worn, which was used as a model for the CAP fleece jacket.

Cite please.

There's nowhere in 39-1 that's even hinted.

You already cited it. You may want to reread it.

According to the CAPM 39-1, the velcro must be 2 inch square.  Oddly enough, there is no size given in para 6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia to indicate what size the rank material must be.  We can assume that the rank material is supposed to be 2 inch, but the regulation go it wrong by not describing the size.  In the Air Force, AAFES sells the sage green fleece with the velro already on it, and they sell the rank already sewn onto a piece of velcro.  I'm sure everyone just buys each of them and puts the rank on the jacket, regardless of the sizes found in the air force manual.  This wouldn't be such a big deal if the velcro on the CAP black fleece were black.


Reference CAPM 39-1
6.1.12.3. ...It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and centered above the last name tape on the wearer's right chest.

For additional referenceFrom AFI 36-2903
6.1.10.10 ...It will also have a 2 inch squared Velcro subdued cloth rank with a solid sage green background (no ABU pattern on background) flushed and centered above the last name tape on the wearer's right chest (Exception: Lieutenant General and General rank will be a 3 ¼ inch by 2 inch Velcro subdued cloth rank).

[Eclipse]

This is what happens when Etsy is considered a viable uniform source.

[pierson777]

Also, since "velcro" is a commercial brand name for hook and loop fasteners, as long as we're fixing things,
it's either "VELCRO®" or "Velcro^®" not "velcro".

Oh, NO!  I used Duragrip Brand hook and loop fastener tape on my uniform instead of Velcro which is what the manual said to use.  Do I need to swap that out for Velcro brand?

[HGjunkie]

Wow - I took my time putting the h&l's on and thought mine looks torn up because it doesn't lay
perfect on the hanger, that above looks like it was done with craft glue by "Mrs. Henderson's 4th grade Sewing Bees".

Even the stuff made by Propper is jacked up and not in alignment - I spent $70 on a new fleece just to find that out.

[Eclipse]

Also, since "velcro" is a commercial brand name for hook and loop fasteners, as long as we're fixing things,
it's either "VELCRO®" or "Velcro^®" not "velcro".

Oh, NO!  I used Duragrip Brand hook and loop fastener tape on my uniform instead of Velcro which is what the manual said to use.  Do I need to swap that out for Velcro brand?

The H&Ls you use must have the mil-spec label or you will be asked to leave the activity.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't really think the L2B meets the description of "similar to" the MA-1 or CWU 45/P or CWU 36/P "in design", because it has the epaulets.  I would never tell anyone not to wear it, but I would advice against buying the L2B with epaulets if you could just as easily buy the one without epaulets.  If you want a lighter-weight flight jacket, that's what the CWU-36/P is.  It's sometimes referred to as the summer weight jacket, but that's probably not an official name.

Point taken, but I have seen L2B's worn in CAP.  It really looks just like the MA-1 except for the epaulettes.

As far as a "woolly pully" for the G/W kit, do you mean a pullover sweater for the Aviator Shirt Uniform?  You can wear any "appropriate civilian outer garment."  I guess that means you can wear as sweater, as long as it's appropriate.

You're correct.  It's a classic style sweater, worn in armed forces, ES, LE and civilian communities.  Some have V-necks, some don't; some have epaulettes, some don't.

We cannot wear grade insignia on it though, even though we could when it was part of the CSU.  I have one which is black, Royal Canadian Navy surplus but fitted the bill for the CSU just fine, but would not fit the bill as regards wearing grade insignia on it with the G/W.

Grade insignia can also no longer be worn on the USAF cardigan if worn with the G/W.

[ProdigalJim]

>> Also, since "velcro" is a commercial brand name for hook and loop fasteners, as long as we're fixing things,
it's either "VELCRO®" or "Velcro®" not "velcro". <<

Not to be a pedant, but marks like this are governed by the Lanham Act, which calls on owners of protected marks to affix the (R) to notify the world of its ownership interest in the mark. Unless you personally are selling items made from the stuff or otherwise using it in a commercial fashion, you are under no similar obligation. (R)s and (C)s tell the world "I own this, mitts off," not "I know someone else owns this."

[SARDOC]

>> Also, since "velcro" is a commercial brand name for hook and loop fasteners, as long as we're fixing things,
it's either "VELCRO®" or "Velcro®" not "velcro". <<

Not to be a pedant, but marks like this are governed by the Lanham Act, which calls on owners of protected marks to affix the (R) to notify the world of its ownership interest in the mark. Unless you personally are selling items made from the stuff or otherwise using it in a commercial fashion, you are under no similar obligation. (R)s and (C)s tell the world "I own this, mitts off," not "I know someone else owns this."

Ten points for the use of the word "Pedant"  Thanks for playing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Or "scotch tape" ("sellotape" in the Commonwealth) for any kind of cellophane tape..."kleenex" for any kind of paper tissue you blow your nose into...and, in a lot of the South, "Coke" for any kind of fizzy drink called "pop" or "soda" elsewhere in the country.

[Eclipse]

So 4 (or 5) is apparently the charm.

One looked "off", one was too small, one was the right size but I didn't roll the edge so it would unravel at
some point, and one rolled-over, sewn, then sewn to the H&Ls.

[Panache]

Where did you get the grade insignia with the "CAP" underneath it?

I know that V sells the "jacket tabs" with the velcro backing, but they say "CAP" on the bottom.  Did you cut that part off, or just buy a standard issue cloth insignia and sew hook tape to the back?

[Eclipse]

Standard insignia, cut to size, sewn to the hook tape.

So what you're looking at above is two standard cloth nametapes, cut to size to match my
blue field uniform's width, and a standard grade insignia.

[Papabird]

Standard insignia, cut to size, sewn to the hook tape.

So what you're looking at above is two standard cloth nametapes, cut to size to match my
blue field uniform's width, and a standard grade insignia.

That is what I did as well.  Pictures to come this afternoon.  I actually took the coat that had the H&L loop side already sewn on, cut the hook side to match and sewed the tapes & grade right to it.  Looks pretty good, and looks similar to Eclipse's.

[Garp]

Talked to Vanguard on this the other day and they apparently hope to have pre-made tapes and grade out shortly

[Garibaldi]

Is it only the Rothco that is authorized? I got my hands on a USMC fleece by Polartec and want to wear it. It's black but not fully fleeced, as there are places devoid of fleece on the front and sleeves. Does not preclude the sewing on of H&L for insignia.

[Eclipse]

Any black fleece is authorized.

[Garibaldi]

Well, it's a moot point now.

[brent.teal]

why is it moot?

[PHall]

why is it moot?

It's a moot point for Garibaldi since he decided to quit CAP and sell all his CAP stuff.

For the rest of us....