Modernizing the physical fitness program

[catrulz]

Problem.   Kids today don't get enough exercise.
Problem.   Kids don't join CAP because of fear of the PT test.
Problem.   Kids quit CAP because they can't pass out PT test.
Problem.   We can't help kids get enough exercise if they don't come to CAP.
What's the problem?

Cite please.

IMHO, this is one more false premise used as the basis for major change that is unnecessary.
Like the idea that there are "too many FGOs and members promote too fast".

The >fix< is to work the actual program and recruit at a level where CAP gets "unbroke" so
that the opportunities and experiences flow like they should.

Seeing 3 1/2-motivated cadets in a slack-jawed line with two disconnected senior members in the
corner ignoring them while they do their "cadet stuff" is hardly the motivation for anyone to
step up and start doing something which is uncomfortable, even if it's necessary.

Currently have a SM that was a former cadet, who had problems with the CPFT.  He was one of the unusual few that stayed despite being frozen. 

Our unit was massive at one time (50 cadets).  I have 3 at the current time.  I get lots of visitors, that come for all three visits.  The meetings are interesting, and we keep them busy.  Visits are almost always inclusive of a CPFT, but even if not we inform them of the requirement.  After three they don't come back.  Many of these kids are playing football or hockey, yet can't do 15 good push-ups.  So, it would appear it's not CAP that's broken but society at large.

Look I don't begin to understand the entire youth psyche or dynamic.  But it was clear to me as a very junior CP officer in 1999 that requiring a CPFT pass to promote hurts cadet retention.  This program should not focus too heavily on any one aspect of youth development.  As a former soldier, and as a current civilian worker, I would rather hire youth that are respectful, can follow instructions, show up on time and are dependable.  Unless I'm hiring steel workers, I don't much care if they can pass a PT test.  The program is supposed to build citizens, not athletes.  We aren't even supposed to be developing Airmen.  Both the CAP and JROTC programs are youth citizenship programs with a military flair.

There has been discussion about JROTC fitness standards.  When I was a cadet there wasn't any.  I did 2 years of Army JROTC, 1 Semester of MCJROTC (this was the only program that did PT) and a year and a half of AFJROTC, and none had a CPFT (the Army JROTC program had a test if you were in the Ranger program).  Yes I did have a CPFT as a CAP cadet, a single event the mile run in 8min.  Very easy! 

Hitler Youth and Soviet Young Pioneers needed to be in excellent shape, for their entry into elite military party supporting apparatus.  That is not the purpose of the CAP cadet program!  We should be building well rounded young citizens, that respect authority, but can make a sound morale judgement when faced with an ethical dilemma.  Yes encourage physical fitness, even require it, at the point when the AF is going to provide advanced credit.  Other than that don't allow it to hinder the cadets participation or progress.

*CPFT is diagnostic until the Mitchell
*Cadet must pass the CPFT to get Mitchell (this is where the AF really start giving credit, for rank and scholarships) 
*To cut down on units fudging the CPFT for Mitchell, Earhart and Eaker have the test scored at Group or Wing Level.

[catrulz]

Seen it with my own eyes.   At my WAG I would say 20-30% of my perspective no-returns are because of their in ability to pass the curry test or their fear of doing the PT test.

Then they walked in the wrong door to begin with.

As stated earlier, we can't and shouldn't be all things to all people.  We want to develop leaders.  We should challenge our cadets; they'll answer.  I've seen it.

Define the wrong door.  Yes, all kids are not going to be interested in CAP.  However, if the kid comes for a visit, one must assume there was at least an inkling of interest.  I have always worked by the philosophy there are no bad cadets, only poor leaders and mentors.  Maybe the cadet program officer walked through the wrong door.

Partisan politics aside, the portion of society that feels ENTITLED, probably can't afford or doesn't want to adhere to the structure or regimentation of an organization like CAP.  You keep quoting JROTC, they don't through cadets out because they can't adhere to a PT standard.  And while I agree we don't through kids out for that reason either, we do discourage their participation.

I am not talking about lowering standards, what I'm talking about is deferring applying the standard as a condition of enrichment being able to fully participate, until the standard means something to outside agencies.  If your an Eagle Scout you can enlist as an E-2, if you were in CAP or JROTC but didn't complete the program you can enlist as an E-2.  CAP Mitchell, JROTC program completion are recognized by DOD for enhanced accelerated appointment.  Definitely at Mitchell or above, they must pass.

By the way, cadets and visitors are walking away because cadet program managers are running the program to include the CPFT with integrity.  Where the program lacks integrity is that CP managers don't have to pass the PT test they are giving.  Honestly, I can't pass it.

I have a difficult time telling a kid they can't fully participate in a program, and I can't meet the standard that excludes him.  The IG should give a SPFT, and come back and make sure they are setting an example.  Once again maybe we walked in the wrong door.  I agree with Lordmonar, build character and citizenship, work with them to improve physical fitness.  Hold them to the appropriate standard when the time is right.

[PA Guy]

Catrulz,

What would you do with the cadet who wants to go to a physically demanding NCSA like PJOC who can't pass the PT test?

[catrulz]

Catrulz,

What would you do with the cadet who wants to go to a physically demanding NCSA like PJOC who can't pass the PT test.

If there is a fitness requirement for an activity, then they must pass to the standard of the activity.  Our Wing already conducts NCSA boards.  Run the CPFT for the applicant on the day of the board.

[LSThiker]

Hitler Youth and Soviet Young Pioneers needed to be in excellent shape, for their entry into elite military party supporting apparatus.  That is not the purpose of the CAP cadet program!  We should be building well rounded young citizens, that respect authority, but can make a sound morale judgement when faced with an ethical dilemma.  Yes encourage physical fitness, even require it, at the point when the AF is going to provide advanced credit.  Other than that don't allow it to hinder the cadets participation or progress.

Really?  Stating that two most extreme examples?

So we should only require physical fitness because the USAF is going to give advanced credit?  We should ignore the fact that our country has an obesity epidemic?  That we literally pay out $190 billion a year on obesity related diseases?  The fact that the USAF gives credit at the Mitchell should have no bearing on requiring physical fitness for cadets.  Requiring physical fitness should be as early as possible but with enough "warm-up" period to get people into shape.  The Wright brothers gives a cadet 6 months to get their posterior in gear and get off the couch. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Hitler Youth and Soviet Young Pioneers needed to be in excellent shape, for their entry into elite military party supporting apparatus.  That is not the purpose of the CAP cadet program!  We should be building well rounded young citizens, that respect authority, but can make a sound morale judgement when faced with an ethical dilemma.  Yes encourage physical fitness, even require it, at the point when the AF is going to provide advanced credit.  Other than that don't allow it to hinder the cadets participation or progress.

Perhaps actually knowing what you're talking about would be helpful?


The Soviet "Pionieri" were akin to (if not a rip off of) the Boy Scouts, except boys and girls participated. Since my mother was one, I think I would know. They did service projects, summer camps, and even had rifle shooting teams, but they weren't a pool of recruits for the military. There was no need - if mother USSR wanted you to serve, you did.


The Hitler Youth? Sure, long term the idea was to build loyal, strong men, but it was basically the same thing as boy scouts, until the war went south for Germany, and they began to throw 15-16 year old boys into the last line of defense.


Neither of those two was MEANT to send people into the military. Both DID have a goal of creating model citizens (national values notwithstanding).

[Luis R. Ramos]

Catrul,

Eliminating CPFT for the average cadet yet requiring it for demanding NCSA will ensure that cadet fails, does not attend the NCSA. Retaining CPFT for the average CAP cadet ensures those that decide later they want the NCSA to be better prepared. Note I said better prepared, not ensuring (s)he will pass it...

[catrulz]

Hitler Youth and Soviet Young Pioneers needed to be in excellent shape, for their entry into elite military party supporting apparatus.  That is not the purpose of the CAP cadet program!  We should be building well rounded young citizens, that respect authority, but can make a sound morale judgement when faced with an ethical dilemma.  Yes encourage physical fitness, even require it, at the point when the AF is going to provide advanced credit.  Other than that don't allow it to hinder the cadets participation or progress.

Really?  Stating that two most extreme examples?

So we should only require physical fitness because the USAF is going to give advanced credit?  We should ignore the fact that our country has an obesity epidemic?  That we literally pay out $190 billion a year on obesity related diseases?  The fact that the USAF gives credit at the Mitchell should have no bearing on requiring physical fitness for cadets.  Requiring physical fitness should be as early as possible but with enough "warm-up" period to get people into shape.  The Wright brothers gives a cadet 6 months to get their posterior in gear and get off the couch.

I went with the two most extreme examples, because they had that exact philosophy that required mental and physical perfection (hey but at least their adult leadership set an example).  Those organizations were exclusionary in other ways as well, so I'm not saying that CAP mirrors them.  I do think by reading this thread that this no defect mind set is expected.  Every cadet cannot be expected to walk in to door as a prime physical specimen.  And honestly, I would rather have a less physically fit cadet that participates fully, than a cadet that maxes the PT and then does just the minimum to fill program requirements.

I and others have stated quite clearly that Cadet Physical Fitness should not be ignored!  No-one has said there should not be a standard.  No-one said there were not other good reasons to perform a Physical Fitness program other than to allow a cadet to progress.  What I did say was, we should not get exclusionary with the Physical Fitness program until the accomplishment of passing has meaning outside CAP (Mitchell level and above). 

Are we doing obese kids a service by taking the attitude that he may have "walked through the wrong door"?  By placing diagnostic testing in place prior to the Mitchell, but still requiring the standard be met at the Mitchell and above, you will still end up with about the same amount of Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker and Spaatz.  But you'll get more cadet retention at the cadet enlisted level, and therefore be able to positively influence thousands of youth that currently feel intimidated by a program that physically overwhelms them.  Build their bodies, but do it without running them out the door.  That's when it becomes the "Wrong Door", that door should invite people in and not bully them into leaving.  CAP is not going to change the eating habits of the average heavy kid, yes some will change, with good counseling and mentoring, but most will not.  But perhaps that same young person can be influenced into becoming more polite, be respectful to authority, to think of others before themselves, learn some good decision making skills and even perhaps some leadership.

CAP should build better citizens morally!  If other countries youth programs had striven for a program based more on our core values, historically they may have avoided a great deal of strife.

[catrulz]

Catrul,

Eliminating CPFT for the average cadet yet requiring it for demanding NCSA will ensure that cadet fails, does not attend the NCSA. Retaining CPFT for the average CAP cadet ensures those that decide later they want the NCSA to be better prepared. Note I said [better prepared,[/b] not that (s)he will pass it...

Once again the intent isn't to eliminate CPFT, but to make it diagnostic.  Many in this thread have said if a cadet wants to make this rank, they'll work harder to meet the standard.  Well wouldn't that also apply to NCSA attendance?  Remember, were still doing the testing, we're even applying pass/fail on the diagnostic.  What we would not be doing is telling a cadet, sorry your stagnant (and if they haven't made Curry completely unable to participate other than meetings). 

The kids that won't meet the standard, would never have met it anyway.  You will still be mentoring, and counseling to engineer success.  In some cases that will work, and in some cases that will not.  If counseling and mentoring are ineffective, along with diagnostic testing, the chances are that cadet would never have been eligible for that NCSA anyway.

[A.Member]

Are we doing obese kids a service by taking the attitude that he may have "walked through the wrong door"? ...

You've got quite the Straw Man going on here.   This has nothing to do with shunning obese kids or expecting only poster children to walk through the door.  The wrong door is the one where a potential cadet is not willing to accept all portions of our program and/or put forth the effort to improve.  I've seen my share of obese cadets come in and make significant changes.  It's one of the most rewarding aspects of CP.  Our program can be a catalyst in that respect.

Another key point being lost here is there is more value to PT than simply being physically fit and living a healthy lifestyle.  Among other things, it also a great deal to do with self discipline, self confidence, and goal setting; important characteristics of leadership.

[catrulz]

Hitler Youth and Soviet Young Pioneers needed to be in excellent shape, for their entry into elite military party supporting apparatus.  That is not the purpose of the CAP cadet program!  We should be building well rounded young citizens, that respect authority, but can make a sound morale judgement when faced with an ethical dilemma.  Yes encourage physical fitness, even require it, at the point when the AF is going to provide advanced credit.  Other than that don't allow it to hinder the cadets participation or progress.

Perhaps actually knowing what you're talking about would be helpful?


The Soviet "Pionieri" were akin to (if not a rip off of) the Boy Scouts, except boys and girls participated. Since my mother was one, I think I would know. They did service projects, summer camps, and even had rifle shooting teams, but they weren't a pool of recruits for the military. There was no need - if mother USSR wanted you to serve, you did.


The Hitler Youth? Sure, long term the idea was to build loyal, strong men, but it was basically the same thing as boy scouts, until the war went south for Germany, and they began to throw 15-16 year old boys into the last line of defense.


Neither of those two was MEANT to send people into the military. Both DID have a goal of creating model citizens (national values notwithstanding).

Well shoot, am I stupid, duh!  Yes the Young Pioneers were founded on the Scouts but were converted into a party youth apparatus.  But technically, the Komsomol would have fit my analogy better, since like the Hitler Youth you actually had to join the party for membership.  So, lets get really particular on this and ignore the total content of the message.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneer_Organization_of_the_Soviet_Union

The Soviet rank in file Military required no actual cadet program affiliation, since it worked on a 4 class draft with a new class being drafted every six months.  NCO's were schooled and appointed based on aptitude testing. 

Most Soviet Officers were Komsomol members before attending their respective academies.  I'm sure you'll find some slight flaw in this also, for instance Naval Draftees served longer than army or some such, can we please get back to the CPFT? 

[LSThiker]

I went with the two most extreme examples, because they had that exact philosophy that required mental and physical perfection (hey but at least their adult leadership set an example).  Those organizations were exclusionary in other ways as well, so I'm not saying that CAP mirrors them.  I do think by reading this thread that this no defect mind set is expected.  Every cadet cannot be expected to walk in to door as a prime physical specimen.  And honestly, I would rather have a less physically fit cadet that participates fully, than a cadet that maxes the PT and then does just the minimum to fill program requirements.

Really?  This thread gives you the idea that a no defect mind set is expected?  I do not think anything in this thread is requiring a no defect. 

I and others have stated quite clearly that Cadet Physical Fitness should not be ignored!  No-one has said there should not be a standard.  No-one said there were not other good reasons to perform a Physical Fitness program other than to allow a cadet to progress.  What I did say was, we should not get exclusionary with the Physical Fitness program until the accomplishment of passing has meaning outside CAP (Mitchell level and above).

Again, so we should only require a passing score until it means something outside of CAP?  Using that logic, then each cadet test prior to the Mitchell should be just a diagnostic.  After all, we do not want to be exclusionary prior to the Mitchell.  So, we are not exclusionary for fitness but for written tests, we are?  Again, the Mitchell is not the point to make fitness required, it would be the first milestone award.

Let us be honest, the Mitchell has no meaning outside of CAP.  The Army and Air Force give advanced promotion for it more out of history than anything.  Cadets were given advancement upon joining the AAF.  Also, the Army and USAF gives advanced promotion to E-3 for just about anything.  Get two recruits in, here is E-3.  tied your shoes today?  Here is E-3.  Advancement to E-3 is pretty much a joke now.  A commander has the authority to promote a person to E-3 simply because. 

[quoteBut you'll get more cadet retention at the cadet enlisted level, and therefore be able to positively influence thousands of youth that currently feel intimidated by a program that physically overwhelms them.  [/quote].

And we will have better retention if all we did is stopped wasting people's time.  In fact, that would probably overcome most other issues.

CAP should build better citizens morally!  If other countries youth programs had striven for a program based more on our core values, historically they may have avoided a great deal of strife.

CAP should build better citizens both morally and physically.

Being a leader includes not only making moral decisions, but also showing that you can take care of yourself physically. 

If all CAP should do is build better citizens morally, there are already plenty of those programs available nationwide.

[catrulz]

Are we doing obese kids a service by taking the attitude that he may have "walked through the wrong door"? ...

You've got quite the Straw Man going on here.   This has nothing to do with shunning obese kids or expecting only poster children to walk through the door.  The wrong door is the one where a potential cadet is not willing to accept all portions of our program and/or put forth the effort to improve.  I've seen my share of obese cadets come in and make significant changes.  It's one of the most rewarding aspects of CP.  Our program can be a catalyst in that respect.

Another key point being lost here is there is more value to PT than simply being physically fit and living a healthy lifestyle.  Among other things, it also a great deal to do with self discipline, self confidence, and goal setting; important characteristics of leadership.

I actually agree with you here, I just don't believe PT needs to be a dis-qualifier for participation in-order to be the catalyst.  What everyone is skipping in my posts is, I am not advocating skipping PT or removing from the program.  I don't even think unit testing should stop.  I simply believe you would have better recruiting and retention results if those tests were diagnostic, up to a certain level.  At that point and for some activities they would still have to be passed.  There would have to be a case study to determine if I'm right or full of p**p, and what overall affect it would have on encampment participation (which I think would increase, and NCSA attendance, promotions and so on.

For instance, for Hawk Mountain or PJOC, cadets definitely need to be physically prepared for these NCSAs.  I'm sure most of the applicants are, and the unit shouldn't be forwarding applicants that aren't.  Once again, with properly applied diagnostics, and leadership counseling, the cadet knows where they stand in relation to physically demanding activities and toward achieving higher level milestones.

[A.Member]

And we will have better retention if all we did is stopped wasting people's time.  In fact, that would probably overcome most other issues.

Amen, brother!  :clap:

[lordmonar]

Catrulz,

What would you do with the cadet who wants to go to a physically demanding NCSA like PJOC who can't pass the PT test?

PJOC has it's own standards.....can't pass it....can't go.

[LATORRECA]

  The cadets on this days like in the past are looking for challenges. Like I said before it's nothing wrong with the program. I just the leadership.

[Eclipse]

Catrulz,

What would you do with the cadet who wants to go to a physically demanding NCSA like PJOC who can't pass the PT test?

PJOC has it's own standards.....can't pass it....can't go.

No CAP activity should have PT standards which exceed the grade-appropriate level for a respective cadet.

[lordmonar]

Why not?

[Eclipse]

Why not?

It makes no logical sense - CPFT indicates "x" is an appropriate level of fitness for "y", then a
given NCSA, open to the respective grade level, says you have to be able to do "q" in order top
participate?  Where did that cadets "q" powers come from?

If the underlying thread of CPFT is that it is an age-appropriate standard, respectively, then any
CAP activity which mandates a level in excess of CPFT is asking for something which exceed
an age-appropriate level of fitness.

[lordmonar]

Why not?

It makes no logical sense - CPFT indicates "x" is an appropriate level of fitness for "y", then a
given NCSA, open to the respective grade level, says you have to be able to do "q" in order top
participate?  Where did that cadets "q" powers come from?

"y" being "ready to accept more leadership responsibilities"
"q" being the standard set by the NCSA developers as the level of fitness necessary to successfully compete the NCSA.

Where do the cadets with "q" Physical Fitness come from?   Well from the squadrons of course.