How to get a promotion?

[Storm Chaser]

I'd much rather see a CFI type receive an advanced promotion than a chaplain or lawyer.  At least a CFI has mission skills that are useful at the squadron level.

I'm of two minds on "mission skills" promotions - I understand the concept, but until you can provide a "mission skill" you shouldn't
be requesting a promotion.

It takes the average member, especially pilots, 6 months to a year to be of any real value to CAP.

I agree. It seems to me that we're using advanced grades as a recruiting incentive. Personally, I don't think anyone should be promoted to an advanced grade unless they "can provide a mission skill" AND demonstrate that they're ready and willing to assume additional responsibilities commensurable with the grade they're requesting.

[JeffDG]

I'd much rather see a CFI type receive an advanced promotion than a chaplain or lawyer.  At least a CFI has mission skills that are useful at the squadron level.

I'm of two minds on "mission skills" promotions - I understand the concept, but until you can provide a "mission skill" you shouldn't
be requesting a promotion.

It takes the average member, especially pilots, 6 months to a year to be of any real value to CAP.

I agree. It seems to me that we're using advanced grades as a recruiting incentive. Personally, I don't think anyone should be promoted to an advanced grade unless they "can provide a mission skill" AND demonstrate that they're ready and willing to assume additional responsibilities commensurable with the grade they're requesting.

One of the reasons that I think we need to discard "time-in-grade" and go to a "level of responsibility" for grade.  Keep the rest of the PD program as a requirement, so if you are a field-grade officer, you have an idea of what CAP is, but make the rank ALSO represent a current, or past, level of responsibility.

So:
L1 lets you rise to 1st Lt
L2 lets you rise to Capt
L3 lets you rise to Maj
L4 lets you rise to Lt Col

Squadron Asst DP gives you 2d Lt
Squadron Prim DP/Group Asst DP gives you 1st Lt
Squadron CC/Group Primary/Wing Asst gives you Capt
Group CC/Wing Primary gives you Maj
Wing "Director" gives you Lt Col

Take those two lists, pick the lower of the two and that's the grade to which you are promoted.  Maintain that for 1 year and it becomes permanent.  Gets rid of the whole commander making up requirements because the person is not "performing at a level meriting promotion" subjective standard, and defines the level the person is expected to perform at.

As an example:
New person is made an instant Wing Staffer.  L1 + Wing Staff = 1st Lt
L5 Person serves for 10 years as the Asst Admin Officer at a squadron:  2d Lt due to level of responsibility
L3 officer has 3 years in, and is appointed Wing DC = Maj

[SunDog]

I'll add that a CFI wouldn't have to be a CAP IP or CP to contribute based on his special skills. A lot of CFIs teach ground school, have much to say about aviation safety, tips and techniques to benefit other pilots, things like that. Hit the ground running, so to speak. Maybe throw him at safety officer track, and tell him you'll promote him if spares you  your 123rd briefing on hyperthermia?

We had a CFI/CFII, ATP, etc. Took a long time to get him CAP IP, I think because someone had recently pranged a 182 while under instruction with a CAP IP. That poor soul was, of course, immedialey thrown under the bus, and it made Wing skittish about handing out IP and CP. They got so skittish, we didn't have a CP available for Form 91s for a couple of months.

Unfortunatly, we lost our CFI/CFII ATP for reasons that will annoy folks if I repeat them here.

I'll bet it wouldn't have made an ounce of difference if the member was a 1st Lt or a Capt.  I would think that 99% of CFI's don't care what rank they are.

A CFI in CAP that is not an IP/CP would not teach ground school.  They can talk about Aviation Safety and give tips and tricks as a 1st Lt, they don't need to be Capt's.

Correct, he didn't bolt IRT rank - he didn't care much about that. It was the very lengthy goat rope to be appointed an IP, and the limitations/road-blocks inherent to instructing in CAP.  He was really into instructing, and his experience in CAP compared poorly with military flying club instructing. He was O.K. with the more stringent military club vs FBO rules; but CAP was a whole 'nother level of hassle.

He got to MP very quickly, and then waited and waited on the wheels to turn for IP.  Given that experience, he wasn't feeling good about hanging around to eventually become a CP, which also appealed to him. Very concientious guy, by the book, willing to do things they way mangaement wanted then done, even when  it was not too smart a process.

So he did the right thing for him, and walked away. Man, we were hurting for CPs for a while -  I needed a ride, and proposed going to the next Wing over for one. That went over real well. Thought about moving to the other Wing, then got frustrated and just stood down from CAP for 18 months or so. Not just the check-ride thing, that was just one more annoyance. Figured I check back after a year or two, see if CAP had its act together any better.

Jury is still out on that one - some things are  a bit better, some are as gacked as before, some have slid back a bit. I have a narrower focus now - SAR/DR flying. The rest is noise, of some passing, but not intense, interest.

That may be the way to approach CAP now - drink from the glass that interests you, leave the rest alone. Jump through the hoops necessary to pariticpate in your arena; for the hoops that aren't generally observed, or are more honored in the breach than the observance, press on without them, if everyone else is.

If promotion decisions vary all over the place, whims and personal agendas overriding, what the heck, the airplane flys just as well if you're wearing rail-road tracks or a butter bar.   

[Eclipse]

Correct, he didn't bolt IRT rank - he didn't care much about that. It was the very lengthy goat rope to be appointed an IP, and the limitations/road-blocks inherent to instructing in CAP.  He was really into instructing, and his experience in CAP compared poorly with military flying club instructing. He was O.K. with the more stringent military club vs FBO rules; but CAP was a whole 'nother level of hassle.

He got to MP very quickly, and then waited and waited on the wheels to turn for IP.  Given that experience, he wasn't feeling good about hanging around to eventually become a CP, which also appealed to him. Very concientious guy, by the book, willing to do things they way mangaement wanted then done, even when  it was not too smart a process.

So he did the right thing for him, and walked away. Man, we were hurting for CPs for a while -  I needed a ride, and proposed going to the next Wing over for one. That went over real well. Thought about moving to the other Wing, then got frustrated and just stood down from CAP for 18 months or so. Not just the check-ride thing, that was just one more annoyance. Figured I check back after a year or two, see if CAP had its act together any better.

What was wrong with "just" being a mission pilot for a while?  Honestly, we get people who walk in the door and expect their non-CAP experience will automatically
translate and they can run the whole show in 6 months, and when they don't get their way, they leave.

We need good, experience mission pilots a >lot< more then we need check pilots.

[SunDog]

I think the MP arena wasn't a big area of interest for him - there just aren't that many "real" missions, and for someone with a full time job and family (and he was/is a pretty senior Fed employee), you're often not available when one comes up.

And most that do come up only surface after the "inner circle" has had first dibs. He and I were flying together on a SAREX, the one I mentioned in which the Air Branch had no clue on the lat/long of the practice beacon? They couldn't tell us on the debrief, if we hit it right, or not? He didn't gripe, but he wasn't impressed, either.  A few similar events, and the other stuff, and we lost him.

Most MP flying is practice, practice, practice. I like it, but his focus was instruction, at which he is very good - he got me through my instrument rating some years back, so his patience and teaching ability must be superior.  We actually tried to do the ratiing in a CAP airplane, but the roadblocks were too high, and we diverted to the military flying club where we are members.

So, nothing wrong with being a MP for a while, but only if it's what you want to do. We have other IPs in our Wing who don't do MP. Used to, don;t anymore. I think our CP situation may be O.K. now, or I was just lucky on timing over the last year or so.

[Eclipse]

I think the MP arena wasn't a big area of interest for him - there just aren't that many "real" missions, and for someone with a full time job and family (and he was/is a pretty senior Fed employee), you're often not available when one comes up.

Then what is he "instructing"?   We don't provide flight instruction to seniors, the IPs and CPs are supposed to be focused on
CAP procedure related to the flights, not the flying itself, which is something the FAA handles for us.

And most that do come up only surface after the "inner circle" has had first dibs. He and I were flying together on a SAREX, the one I mentioned in which the Air Branch had no clue on the lat/long of the practice beacon? They couldn't tell us on the debrief, if we hit it right, or not? He didn't gripe, but he wasn't impressed, either.  A few similar events, and the other stuff, and we lost him.

The AOBD isn't supposed to know where it is - he's training, too.

Most MP flying is practice, practice, practice.

Yep.  I have yet to meet >anyone< in CAP who doesn't need more.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

We really need to set expectations for pilots wanting to become CAP Pilots, MP's and IP/CP's.

Being a CAP pilot is not like flying in a Flying Club.  There are much more stringent rules, regulations, paperwork and uniform requirements to fly our planes.

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

To the majority of Private pilots these are all skills that need to be learned and they take time to master.  Once an understanding of the CAP system, the flight regime, and CRM should be CFI be encouraged to become an IP or Check Pilot.  They don't necessarily need to be MP but they do need a through understanding of the above.

And most that do come up only surface after the "inner circle" has had first dibs. He and I were flying together on a SAREX, the one I mentioned in which the Air Branch had no clue on the lat/long of the practice beacon? They couldn't tell us on the debrief, if we hit it right, or not? He didn't gripe, but he wasn't impressed, either.  A few similar events, and the other stuff, and we lost him.

I hear a lot about the inner circle and the OBC but in my experience (YMMV) those are just members that have volunteered their time and been available to fly when the missions come up.  I've flown 84 hours for CAP this year, mostly funded because I've been available and willing to fly.  It's also because I've been in CAP for almost five years and have honed my skills as an MP and and yes spent a lot of time on base staff.  Much of my funded flying was available because of time devoted as Base Staff supporting other pilots.  I don't do base staff and FRO for the flying but because it supports our missions and our pilots.

YMMV, but in any organization the more you give the more rewarding and fulfilling it is.  This is very true of CAP. 

[Eclipse]

I hear a lot about the inner circle and the OBC but in my experience (YMMV) those are just members that have volunteered their time and been available to fly when the missions come up.  I've flown 84 hours for CAP this year, mostly funded because I've been available and willing to fly.  It's also because I've been in CAP for almost five years and have honed my skills as an MP and and yes spent a lot of time on base staff.  Much of my funded flying was available because of time devoted as Base Staff supporting other pilots.  I don't do base staff and FRO for the flying but because it supports our missions and our pilots.

I'd have to pretty much agree.

Answer the phone and make yourself available without a lot of drama and the opportunities are there (make sure you actually understand the system, too).

But seriously, everyone should be allowed to participate, but who are you going to call when the SHTF?  Members who never show up for anything but
the bare minimum, or members who are always around and have a proven track record?

[SunDog]

I think the MP arena wasn't a big area of interest for him - there just aren't that many "real" missions, and for someone with a full time job and family (and he was/is a pretty senior Fed employee), you're often not available when one comes up.

Then what is he "instructing"?   We don't provide flight instruction to seniors, the IPs and CPs are supposed to be focused on
CAP procedure related to the flights, not the flying itself, which is something the FAA handles for us.

And most that do come up only surface after the "inner circle" has had first dibs. He and I were flying together on a SAREX, the one I mentioned in which the Air Branch had no clue on the lat/long of the practice beacon? They couldn't tell us on the debrief, if we hit it right, or not? He didn't gripe, but he wasn't impressed, either.  A few similar events, and the other stuff, and we lost him.

The AOBD isn't supposed to know where it is - he's training, too.

Most MP flying is practice, practice, practice.

Yep.  I have yet to meet >anyone< in CAP who doesn't need more.

CFII instrument instructor - done in CAP for seniors, and also I beleive pimary flight instruction for cadets at solo school, right?

Aircraft, missions, and GOBS clustered around one location. . . not exclusive, but first dibs. Call ol' Jake, reward him for that last batch of widget reports. Or for waxing the cat, whatever. Not sure parsing out the missions based on Staff work is a good way to distribute training. Or, maybe it is - get a smaller group, a cadre of known quantities to call on, might make sense. Eventually, we can just move all the airplanes to one location. Joking aside, it isn't that bad, just a reality, human nature, to have some of that.

I fly MP and MO - we work out the details and planning with each other, whichever seat we're in. When in the left seat, I adhere to the "The Pilot in Comand is solely responsible for, and the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft".

Only been an issue once or twice. MO wanted to fly it as planned, I decided we had to make a change. We agreed to disagree, and since I was the PIC and the pilot on the flight release, we did it my way. I imagine it's very, very seldom a problem, conflict as to the command of the flight.  Most times the mission is well defined, and both parties are aligned with the goal. If something unexpected comes up, we can put our heads together. I brief that one vote wins - anybody says "knock it off",  we knock it off - sick, tired, scared, whatever. Otherwise, when I'm PIC, the  "how"  we do the mission is my call. I'm the one to be held responsible; with that comes the authority.

A good MO makes my day - On an ELT I can aviate, navigate, and communicate. He can work the Becker or the LTronics, give me steering commands, and deal with the CAP FM noise. If the MO is up to speed, he can have the panel mount GPS, too.  But I know one airplane that has the Becker on the pilot's side - the CC of the unit doesn't want the MO working it. If I was in his right seat, I'd say take me home, Dude - your head is in here, when it's supposed to be outside. This is a high traffic area - you aviate, I'll look at the DF.

We don't train non-pilot MO's well. I think that's why we end up with two MPs in the plane so often.

[SunDog]

Gotta disagree on the beacon - we burned a lot of gas and member's time - and not just to train Air Branch; someone at the ICP  should have known the beacon location, to give the debrief some value to the aircrew.

Good to know you gotthe DF right. Or not, and that your DF skill or technique needs work. zotherwise it could have been a table top. . .

[Eclipse]

Did you find it?  Because if not, it's entirely possible that the mission was at the stage of evolution where no
one but the white cell knows the location.

Post mission you should be able to get that kind of info from the AAR, but during, the location of the targets
is generally held very close to the vest for obvious reasons.

That assumes it's an "all-hands-learn" situation.  If the day is centered around just aircrew training, then
sometimes the Air Branch will have the actual locations, since the learning isn't centered on them, it's centered
on the crews.

[SunDog]

Did you find it?  Because if not, it's entirely possible that the mission was at the stage of evolution where no
one but the white cell knows the location.

Post mission you should be able to get that kind of info from the AAR, but during, the location of the targets
is generally held very close to the vest for obvious reasons.

That assumes it's an "all-hands-learn" situation.  If the day is centered around just aircrew training, then
sometimes the Air Branch will have the actual locations, since the learning isn't centered on them, it's centered
on the crews.

Beats me. I think I did; I marked a position. No way to know before, during, or after.  If someone recorded the lat/long, it never made it into a brief or document the crews had access to. This was not an isolated event.

[Private Investigator]

Being a CAP pilot is not like flying in a Flying Club.  There are much more stringent rules, regulations, paperwork and uniform requirements to fly our planes.

But with 535 Corporate planes, some Squadrons are GOBN flying clubs.  YMMV   

[SunDog]

We have a CAP squadron that is actually a flying club. You have to join CAP to join tbe club. They have several nice non-CAP airplanes, plus a CAP C182.

After a year in CAP,  you can drop out of CAP and stay in the club. Clearly, once that happens, you can't fly the CAP 182 anymore, of course.

They do a lot of cadet flying, and have mission crews, and it seems to work. Some years back they had one of their own go missing, and coudn't participate in the search - no mission crews qualified - but they turned that around. They don't fly the most CAP  hours, but they get it done. I think their meetings are mixed CAP and flying club affairs, though that may have changed in recent years.

[a2capt]

Great, there's a corporate aircraft that needs to be relocated.

[Private Investigator]

Most 'flying club' squadrons do lots of Cadet 'O' rides on the weekends. They have mission crews that they usually have to recycle every three years since their specialities expire from a lack of use. Then they restart the ES training frenzy and do three SAREXs during the summer and the following year get "Squadron of the Year". Then they will continue the cycle.   

[SunDog]

I admit I thought it was an odd set-up back in the day; defintely seemed out-of-place to me that a club would list a CAP airplane as a club aircraft. Way back when, I sort of wrote them off as none too serious. But they did turn it around, with some new blood, I think.

In this case, I'm pretty sure these guys have been full-players & participants, with decent numbers of mission crews, non-stop, for quite a few years now. Again, not top of the heap in hours or number of mission aircrew, but not slackers, either. They pull their weight.

There is a large cadet squadron nearby them, so they carry that load - more power to them, because that's not a universally loved mission. Some of us do our fair share, to pull our weight, take up some of the  slack. But I'm glad they are willing to do the heavy lift.

[Storm Chaser]

I have nothing against flying clubs, but they have NO place in CAP. We have a mission to accomplish and treating a CAP unit as a flying club can have a negative impact on that mission.

If members want to form a flying club outside of CAP, that's just fine. But members should join CAP to serve their community, state and nation through one or more of our congressionally mandated missions. Anything else is just an unnecessary distraction.

[SunDog]

Not sure I disagree. . . I would have thought it an unusual case, but it sounds like you've heard of it before?It's not unusual?  I could see how an argument could be made for it as a positive, getting pilots in the door, and maybe sticking with CAP after the year.  An out of the box plus for recruiting.

Seems likley NHQ knows it goes on, and the Wing certainly does - no one is hiding it, so it must pass the smell test with management. If it doesn't bother senior management. . .if they put the 200 hours on, maybe that's good enough? I think my Wing would lose a couple solid MPs and other aircrew - the next closest CAP plane is a long haul away.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Only been an issue once or twice. MO wanted to fly it as planned, I decided we had to make a change. We agreed to disagree, and since I was the PIC and the pilot on the flight release, we did it my way. I imagine it's very, very seldom a problem, conflict as to the command of the flight.  Most times the mission is well defined, and both parties are aligned with the goal. If something unexpected comes up, we can put our heads together. I brief that one vote wins - anybody says "knock it off",  we knock it off - sick, tired, scared, whatever. Otherwise, when I'm PIC, the  "how"  we do the mission is my call. I'm the one to be held responsible; with that comes the authority.

SunDog, you are the PIC and solely responsible for the safety of the aircraft.  In CAP you are NOT responsible for how the mission is prosecuted unless and perhaps the MO is in training.  You are not held responsible for "how" the mission is prosecuted just how the mission was conducted safely.  The MO is responsible for the prosecution of the mission.  You as are all of the rest of us MP's just the buss driver.

Are you really an MP in CAP?