No More NCC

[a2capt]

If it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

What Ron1319 is trying to say .. perhaps is not coming across well in words here.

It's kind of the reverse of this more likely .. when you've got the establishment pounding to the tune of .. "It's all about Encampment.." and stretching back into the years when discretionary grade was "the thing". "I'm a c/capt in the CTG, so you have to listen to me, or encampment is going to be heck for you.." and the rest of these other activities are "frowned upon" because that 'establishment' can't have it's own way at them.

Perhaps the pendulum is swinging the other direction now.. and can be kept in check for a bit.

[Ron1319]

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

Yes.  One of our non-drill team cadets went to IACE last summer and tested for his Spaatz before leaving for college.  He didn't pass all of the parts, but he will.  He was the Wing CAC chair last year, if I'm not mistaken.

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

We have received the quality unit award two years in a row, send more cadets to encampment than any other squadron in the wing, and I believe had more cadets on staff, but I'm not positive about that part.

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

Our squadron had 7 cadets on drill team and averages about 50 cadets at meetings.  We have never had drill team practice time during squadron meetings. 

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5%?  Maybe 10%.  We contributed $80/cadet towards their expenses for each cadet on the team, so about $550.  The squadron has significant fund raising.  I'm not sure what the exact income figure is, but probably about $6,000/year. 

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

The unit's FB/web page contains almost nothing about drill team.

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

Over time, 100% sure.  Due to second order effects.

[Ron1319]

If it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

What Ron1319 is trying to say .. perhaps is not coming across well in words here.

It's kind of the reverse of this more likely .. when you've got the establishment pounding to the tune of .. "It's all about Encampment.." and stretching back into the years when discretionary grade was "the thing". "I'm a c/capt in the CTG, so you have to listen to me, or encampment is going to be heck for you.." and the rest of these other activities are "frowned upon" because that 'establishment' can't have it's own way at them.

Perhaps the pendulum is swinging the other direction now.. and can be kept in check for a bit.

I haven't been around CAWG for any of that.  Discretionary grade was OK in Ohio Wing for the last time during my basic encampment in 1993.  My years on encampment staff as a cadet were wearing the grade I earned.  I found it disturbing that CAWG old timers were still arguing for discretionary grade at the Cadet Program Conference a couple of years ago. 

[Ron1319]

We have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

So a 10 person squadron commits 5 cadets to a color guard team.  That leaves them with another 5 cadets.  They're supposed to practice with two other squadrons to form a combined squadron drill team?  After their best 5 NCOs were just put on a color guard.

And then I'm supposed to take 5 of my best NCOs and send them to the color guard competition while trying to find 14 other cadets in my unit who want to form a drill team, since we are one of the largest units in the region and pretty high on the national rankings.  What you're suggesting is that I should try to convince more than half of my active cadets that they are going to focus on competition. 

Our color guard practices all of the time and does a few extra practices before competitions.  Drill team is, as I say it is, a team pulled of the best cadets in the group with the goal in mind of going to NCC to be competitive.  We have done so with once or twice a month practices starting in about January and with a couple of weekend long practices before NCC. 

We were unable to have practice during CAWG encampment because the majority of our cadets were off staffing encampment, something which we have been encouraging for years.

Annual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

My drill team commander has been highly involved in helping develop that D&C school along with Capt Sanford.  I trained him, so ironically you just took credit for work that came from our drill team.

CPC is a social event with some classes.  The act of lining up the cadets and parading the girls up the middle with their "dates" was one of the most bizarre and uncomfortable experiences of my senior career.  I was driving van loads of cadets to the banquet and the degree to which the girls were uncomfortable with being paraded was astonishing.  Fix that "tradition" and we can talk about ways that CPC could be improved.

Encampment is about 8 hours away.  Several of our cadets had to previously go to WA/OR winter encampment in order to find staffing opportunities.  Now it seems that encampment is accepting staff from Nor Cal.  Prior to last year, it seemed like it was entirely staffed by cadets from SoCal.  Our cadets have to get to a staff selection exercise that is 8 hours away for a weekend.  The process of being involved in encampment is extremely difficult, but several of them did it last year.

As for the ILP, my brother-in-law started running weekend programs for the group a couple of years ago.  I wasn't personally involved with them but many of our cadets attended/staffed/ran them. I don't understand what it supposedly means to "receive credit" for one of them, since they count towards nothing.  I think a well run squadron replaces the need for them, and good cadet leadership and a strong squadron makes them redundant.  I did drive a couple cadets to one of the higher level ones a year or so ago.  We have had several cadets attend COS from the drill team in the last couple of years.

[Eclipse]

And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

[Ron1319]

And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

It's not a wacky conspiracy theory if they're actually out to get you.

As for having enough people, we had to cut 3 cadets from drill team last year because we had 17 good cadets and could only take 14 to NCC.  They were invited to continue to practice, to fill in for anyone missing from practice during innovative, to continue to play volleyball with the team, and to be a part of the team "next year." 

As for PCR not really having any interest, PCR has recently always been a top contender in the CG comp at NCC. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the fact that NCC has been the highest level of competition.  We're dealing with experienced cadet officers who understand the bigger picture.  We can't fool them into thinking that a region competition has the same weight, value or motivation as NCC.  If we were in a region with many competitive teams, then region competition would be more meaningful, but we are not.

[Ron1319]

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."

I would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ron, how many of the 9 QUA criteria did you guys hit? 8? 7?

[Eclipse]

And this has exactly "what" to do with the fact that PCR has little to no interest in NCC?

You either have enough people to participate properly, or you don't. 

Tacking the totality of the typical ills of CAP on the wall as some conspiracy to kill NCC doesn't work.

It's not a wacky conspiracy theory if they're actually out to get you.

Correlation does not imply causation, which is pretty much where you are with this.

As for having enough people, we had to cut 3 cadets from drill team last year because we had 17 good cadets and could only take 14 to NCC.  They were invited to continue to practice, to fill in for anyone missing from practice during innovative, to continue to play volleyball with the team, and to be a part of the team "next year." 

As for PCR not really having any interest, PCR has recently always been a top contender in the CG comp at NCC. 

There seems to be a lack of understanding of the fact that NCC has been the highest level of competition.  We're dealing with experienced cadet officers who understand the bigger picture.  We can't fool them into thinking that a region competition has the same weight, value or motivation as NCC.  If we were in a region with many competitive teams, then region competition would be more meaningful, but we are not.

How's NCC the highest competition when no one is "competing" in most states?  That's one of the Great Fallacies^® here.

Many wings have trouble getting enough teams interested to hand out all three medals, let alone any insinuation that it is the "highest competition".

This is like saying the "of the year awards" mean something, when in most cases it's "the one guy who was nominated".

It's an annual "band camp of those who care", nothing more nothing less.  It hasn't been anything close to "highest competition" for at least a decade.
You yourself have indicated here that one of the biggest wings / regions in CAP can barely field one team.  You're not bringing the best of anything because
most of the people in the region aren't even interested.

[PA Guy]

Deleted

[a2capt]

I would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

How many other thread titles are ambiguous or otherwise don't tell the whole story?

Don't judge a book by it's cover.
At least read the foreword.

[NIN]

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."

I would like to point out that the title of the thread is "No more NCC."

Right. Which means in 2014, there will not be a National Cadet Competition. Nothing prohibiting Cadet Competitions from occurring at Region, Wing & Group levels, and in fact continuing competition at these levels is encouraged.

Just because you can (potentially) wind up at the National Cadet Competition does not mean that the Group-level competition is called "The Group V CA Wing National Cadet Competition"

[jeders]

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

As a former Mitchell cadet, I can tell you that I agree with Eclipse, and Nin, and everyone else that you say doesn't "get it." Cadet Competition is great, but NCC being paused for a year or two or more shouldn't stop you from competing in any way. If it does, then you are missing the whole point of the competition. Think of it this way, just because there aren't Olympic Summer Games this year, doesn't mean that there aren't still Olympians competing and preparing for the 2016 games.

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

[Eclipse]

Just because you can (potentially) wind up at the National Cadet Competition does not mean that the Group-level competition is called "The Group V CA Wing National Cadet Competition"

It needs to be made clear to anyone participating that there's no NCC and no path there until further notice.

I know for a fact that a fair number of cadets competing have the "odds are in my favor" attitude about NCC - which is clearly the
case in PCR.  In other words, when there aren't even enough teams to even put a local comp on, "my odds on a free trip somewhere are pretty good,
even if we aren't really a national caliber team."

If you think NCC is a motivator, watch it become a quit-factor fast when cadets spend time and money thinking there is still an NCC and
they find out there isn't one. 

[NIN]

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

TL;DR: "Don't mess with Texas"

[JeffDG]

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana?

If you are in Johnson City, Tennesee, you're closer to Canada than you are to Memphis.

[ol'fido]

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

As a former Mitchell cadet, I can tell you that I agree with Eclipse, and Nin, and everyone else that you say doesn't "get it." Cadet Competition is great, but NCC being paused for a year or two or more shouldn't stop you from competing in any way. If it does, then you are missing the whole point of the competition. Think of it this way, just because there aren't Olympic Summer Games this year, doesn't mean that there aren't still Olympians competing and preparing for the 2016 games.

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

You mean like how it's a shorter distance for people in El Paso to get to the Pacific Ocean than it is to get to Louisiana? Or maybe how almost all of the cadets in Group 1 (West Texas) are encouraged to go to encampments in New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas because they're closer than the one in Texas? Yeah, Pacific Region definitely has a monopoly on size.

We have a great time with the cadets and seniors from TX-802, Sheldon Composite Squadron, from Houston every year at the Illinois Wing Summer Encampment. I'm happy to have them as long as they want to travel.

[Nathan]

I sort of feel like my Spaatz doesn't matter now because I never put more than two thoughts toward NCC. Ever.

That's sad to learn.

[NIN]

I sort of feel like my Spaatz doesn't matter now because I never put more than two thoughts toward NCC. Ever.

That's sad to learn.

Its OK, you can redeem yourself with a short trip to Pennsylvania or Wisconsin..

[Storm Chaser]

I can see some people being disappointed because the national competition was put on hold, but the fact that the group, wing and region competitions can still proceed is still pretty good. I mean, if I was a cadet and part of a drill team, I would be very proud to make it to the wing competition and even more so if my team won and made it to region.

The problem I see, as has been described in previous posts, is that some of the competitions leading to NCC are either nonexistent or have poor participation or are not challenging enough, leading some cadets and senior members to believe that if they put a team together they're almost guarantee to make it to the region and national competitions. That's not what NCC is all about.

Furthermore, while NCC is a great cadet activity, it's not the only or even the most important cadet activity. Only a small fraction of the cadet corps get to participate, and only those who were challenged through the group, wing and region competitions can truly say that they are part of the top cadets in CAP. If it's really so easy to make it to national because of poor competition throughout the different levels, then where's the accomplishment of making it to NCC or even winning it?

If you really want to compete, a group, wing and region competition should provide enough challenge to make it worthwhile. And even provide preparation for a possible NCC in the future.