No More NCC

[Eclipse]

Then it's a shame that CAPtalk appears to lack a block button.

It actually does, it just doesn't really do anything meaningful.

Your post above makes my point - DT has to be ramped up, and if it pauses people lose interest.

Why?

Because nothing involved is part of normal cadet life, except to some extent the knowledge portion.

These competitions should be focused on things that are a relative normal part of a cadet's life
and on skills useful in helping the unit and the program grow, not helping the comp program grow.

Self-perpetuation is not one of our missions.

I also agree with Ned's post and it shows another evolutionary and serious weakness in CAP as an organization -
namely allowing members to treat CAP like a menu to the exclusion of anything else.

There are "NCC people", "encampment people", "ES people", etc., etc., and in a lot of cases
those folks could care less about anything but their "thing" and only when their thing is impacted
by someone else's thing.  You never see these people at anything but their "thing", and
the state of CAP as a whole generally escapes them. 

[Eclipse]

I don't think we should let the non-trivial scoring and judging issues that have come up over the last few years
fall by the wayside, either.

That's a technical problem that should be an easy fix, but for some reason happened on more then one occasion.

Anything that calls into question the integrity of outcome is a major nail in the coffin when commanders decide
what to support.

[Ron1319]

Is your Group/Wing/Region still conducting a Group/Wing/Region competition cycle for 2014?

If your wing and region are "simply too big," then how big, exactly, is the National Competition?

National HQ suspending NCC for a year to re-evaluate, re-assess and make changes to the program for 2015 in no way prohibits your region, wing or group from continuing to hold competitions as they have in the past.  All that changes is that you don't have to travel to Maxwell/Dayton/McMinville/wherever in 2014.

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.  We have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.  Wing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car. 

Our competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

National Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team. 

As far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

Sam -- You think the same people that wrote the NCC Manual and those goals are still sitting at National HQ deciding that it's not worth the effort to go find sponsors to fund NCC 2014?

[Eclipse]

You've just outlined the reasons this is failing, there isn't enough interest to sustain it.

[Ron1319]

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

[Ron1319]

Seriously, I'm sure we spend more than $130k on the cadet program.  Just axe it entirely so that Eclipse can focus on the real mission of CAP.  After all, there are less than 10 cadets in 80% of squadrons, and most of them don't get to become cadet officers.  We don't really need them anyway.  I'm sure the cadet program could just "take a year off."

[Eclipse]

Seriously, I'm sure we spend more than $130k on the cadet program.  Just axe it entirely so that Eclipse can focus on the real mission of CAP.  After all, there are less than 10 cadets in 80% of squadrons, and most of them don't get to become cadet officers.  We don't really need them anyway.  I'm sure the cadet program could just "take a year off."

The "real mission of CAP" is the "missions of CAP", which is exactly where we should be focused, and not allow extracurricular activities
get in the way.

How is this in any way connected to whether or not cadets become officers?

[Eclipse]

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

"Seniors like me" are not the ones who had the reins and couldn't communicate that "importance".

Point the fingers all you like, place blame anywhere it helps you feel better, but the fact is that
your wing and region isn't interested in the idea enough to sustain the proper scope of local competition,
so you were leaning on the national level to sustain your wing's participation.

That ain't how it works.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Because of seniors like you who have no understanding of how important a part of the cadet program it is.

You are simply proving his point. This is your thing, so the cadet program falls without it. The national CP team and many others believe encampment is the thing that is real important. Others believe it's all about the weekend activities, and others think the meat and potatoes are done at the weekly meetings.

In your area, for whatever reason cadets didn't promote into Phase III without drill team. In my area cadets were so wrapped up in drill team they couldn't be bothered with the Mitchell or even Phase II.

Somehow most of my friends and I made it to be Cadet Officers, and hell, even some Spaatz cadets without ever joining the DT Cult in our wing. Oh, but we all did staff a lot of encampments. I would venture to say Honor Guard is a really cool, and really important thing for the Cadet Program. After all, I went to HGA, and I have the hat to prove it. But that's just my opinion, and in no way would I say that the cadets who do Honor Guard or even just regular color guard during the rest of the year that isn't NCC, are any worse or better than any other cadets.

You are making correlations that don't exist, simply because you are wrapped up on your thing. The rest of CAP, much like the rest of CAP and CapTalk are simply not connected.

[Storm Chaser]

When I was a cadet, drill team was a big deal in my squadron. Most cadets worked hard to join the drill team and took pride on what they did. We learned about excellence, leadership and competition. We developed a strong esprit de corps. We made friends, we challenged each other and it was fun.

I have many good memories from those days as a cadet (encampments, cadet staff, NCSA, ES), but of all those, our drill team holds a special place.

I don't think that NCC or drill teams in general should be the focus of the Cadet Programs, but it's definitely one of many tools it has to encourage cadets to learn, participate, grow and become leaders. I hope NHQ can come up with a solution that works for everyone.

[PHall]

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is. 

There is NO such thing as "Pacific Coast Region".  It's Pacific Region.

If this is an example of the attention to detail that the NCC produces, then good riddence!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Burn? Lol.

[Patterson]

Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

[Eclipse]

Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

The only issue I have with this is that just because the program is canceled or changed doesn't negate the experiences already had. 
Any reasonable expense or equipment should be usable in normal operations (anything >not< usable in normal ops is part of the problem),
and whatever "value" this brings to the program as a whole should still be there.  Or is the volleyball court the only place to teach leadership?

If excellence in drill is the goal, what's stopping you from continuing that?

Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

+1 on this.

[NIN]

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

We have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

I might be some bumkin living in a little tiny state like New Hampshire (9,350 sq miles. 3 of it will fit into San Bernadino County. Totally get it. The West is big, tracking..), but you're telling me that your ENTIRE group can't have a drill team comp? 11 squadrons can't put enough cadets down on the drill pad so you can have a couple 14-16 cadet drill teams and a couple 5-cadet color guards? 

I am SURE I am missing something here.  Your squadron must be incredibly small to not be able to field a drill team.

I did a little math:

Group 5, CA Wing, has 11 squadrons, one of which is a school squadron so we'll throw it out entirely just to work with a round number.

10 squadrons, minimum size is 12 cadets to remain chartered, right?

120 cadets in the group, at a bare minimum.

120 cadets and you can't field 2 drill teams and a couple 3-4 color guard teams?

Sounds to me like a group drill comp is JUST THE THING to promote the ideals and principles of the cadet program and cadet competition and help STRENGTHEN the local units at the SAME TIME!  WOW

And even better, its LOCAL!  The furthest unit in your group is 2.5 hrs from Group HQ. In Pacific Region terms, that's walking distance, right?   Surely, even if you excluded the two units furthest from Group HQ as "too lazy to drive to Group," the other 6 or 7 squadrons could have a drill team or two, right?

Wing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car.

I'm confused. You can't field a squadron team for a group comp, so you have to field a team to go to wing comp, but you said wing comp sucks, so then region comp is pretty far flung....

Are you saying you just want a pass to go right to the National Competition on the basis of your squadron can't put a team together for a local comp, doesn't want to put forth the effort for the wing comp, and the region is too big for effective competition?  I am sure I didn't read that right.

Our competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

What?

Horse hockey!

Your competition is not NCC. At the squadron level, your competition is the other squadrons in your group.  Your goal might be to go all the way to the National competition, and thats great.  But thats a GOAL, not competition. 

And at least for 2014, without a National Competition, you're out of luck there. 

So why can't your goal be PCR competition?  Why can't your goal be wing competition?  How about a goal being "have a large and viable enough unit to send a drill team to the group, wing and region competition that consists only of cadets from this squadron?"

That sounds like a pretty darn good goal.

National Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team.

Huh? I'm confused.  Why would NHQ restructure NCC so that every group in Pacific Region fields a team? I don't get what you mean here.

As far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

I'm sure we'll see guidance eventually. I do know the CP shop has its hands full with the CPP draft & possible roll out, the encampment guidelines draft and eventual roll out, and some other stuff in the hopper.  But just because nobody has graced your inbox with a "We'll be back in 2015!" email doesn't mean that isn't the plan.

Bummer that NCC 2014 is on hold.  The bottom line, however, is that it doesn't mean that you cannot participate in a local, wing or region competition. And win.

[NIN]

Life is full of disappointments, this current NCC situation is just one more example.  I feel for all those Cadets (and Seniors) that invested their time, money and effort into the NCC!

Unfortunately, the complaining and discussions about this activity cancelation all have a common tone and underlying message that is far more serious...

1. To those units that spend lots of money, time and attention toward preparing for the competitions, are your non drill team/ honor guard/ color guard cadet accomplishments equally identifiable?

2. Can the units cadet statistics clearly show successful program implementation?

3. Are weekly meetings simply an opportunity for the drill team to recruit new team members, while providing additional practice time?

4. What percent of yearly unit funds go toward "the team" and associated expenses?

5. Is the units Facebook/ web page almost entirely devoted to the team?

6. Are you fearful that you will lose cadets if NCC goes away?

I don't know where you're from, but I'll just put it like this:


"I wanna party with you, cowboy. You and me together? Forget it!"

Magic.

[Mitchell 1969]

California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.

I'm not sure I even know what that means. Wings "...make Phase IV cadets...?" Wings make cadets "...who attend national activities...?"

Let's see now, what does CA WG do for cadets that might provide leadership and growth opportunities...?

Annual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

Sounds like a lot to me, with ample opportunities to assist those who "make Phase IV cadets" at the Squadron and Group levels. Have you been to any? Do you send your cadets to them?

[Майор Хаткевич]

California isn't exactly a wing that is known for always doing their best to make Phase IV cadets or cadets who attend national activities, especially in Northern California.

I'm not sure I even know what that means. Wings "...make Phase IV cadets...?" Wings make cadets "...who attend national activities...?"

Let's see now, what does CA WG do for cadets that might provide leadership and growth opportunities...?

Annual Cadet Program Conference, since 1972; A 250-300 person encampment most years since 1973, usually incorporating a Group structure with 3 squadrons, 10-12 flights; Integrated Leadership Program, including dedicated schools for Basic cadets, cadet NCOs, cadet senior NCOs, plus a Cadet Officers Basic Course that has been designated as a RCLS and an Advanced Cadet Staff Seminar; an in-development Drill and Ceremonies school that has already had at least two prototype events; Cadet Advisory Council.

Sounds like a lot to me, with ample opportunities to assist those who "make Phase IV cadets" at the Squadron and Group levels. Have you been to any? Do you send your cadets to them?

If it's anything like my Wing DT was, then these activities interfered with their practice time...

[Storm Chaser]

You appear to not understand how big Pacific Coast Region is.

You're right. I had no idea.   All the time I spent in CAP since 1981 (minus the 4 years I was "retired"), I never bothered to look at anything west of the Mississippi.

I understand Pacific Region is large. No kidding.  Not a news flash.  Thanks a lot Hawaii & Alaska for blowing the curve on "distance" for the rest of us (wait.. wait.. lets wait for the TX Wing guys to weigh in on their ONE STATE...)

We have no group competition because we pull a team from the group and it's not viable for the squadrons in the group to participate in the drill team competition because each squadron that would participate has a color guard that draws too many cadets to leave enough for drill teams.

Wait, what?

Major, you told us that the whole NCC process is all about building up viable squadrons and cadets.

Then, above, you tell me that your GROUP is unable to conduct a competition on its own because it is not viable for the squadrons to participate due to their COLOR GUARDS?

I'm sorry. That dog just don't hunt.

I might be some bumkin living in a little tiny state like New Hampshire (9,350 sq miles. 3 of it will fit into San Bernadino County. Totally get it. The West is big, tracking..), but you're telling me that your ENTIRE group can't have a drill team comp? 11 squadrons can't put enough cadets down on the drill pad so you can have a couple 14-16 cadet drill teams and a couple 5-cadet color guards? 

I am SURE I am missing something here.  Your squadron must be incredibly small to not be able to field a drill team.

I did a little math:

Group 5, CA Wing, has 11 squadrons, one of which is a school squadron so we'll throw it out entirely just to work with a round number.

10 squadrons, minimum size is 12 cadets to remain chartered, right?

120 cadets in the group, at a bare minimum.

120 cadets and you can't field 2 drill teams and a couple 3-4 color guard teams?

Sounds to me like a group drill comp is JUST THE THING to promote the ideals and principles of the cadet program and cadet competition and help STRENGTHEN the local units at the SAME TIME!  WOW

And even better, its LOCAL!  The furthest unit in your group is 2.5 hrs from Group HQ. In Pacific Region terms, that's walking distance, right?   Surely, even if you excluded the two units furthest from Group HQ as "too lazy to drive to Group," the other 6 or 7 squadrons could have a drill team or two, right?

Wing competition is about 8 hours away and we often have either no team to compete against or a single team who is not very well prepared.  We haven't had a "real" competition at wing in the last 4 years.  Last year's region competition was based on video submissions of drill events last year and a written test even though the team from Nevada was also willing to travel to participate in person.  Our region includes Hawaii and Alaska.  Washington is about 12 hours away by car.

I'm confused. You can't field a squadron team for a group comp, so you have to field a team to go to wing comp, but you said wing comp sucks, so then region comp is pretty far flung....

Are you saying you just want a pass to go right to the National Competition on the basis of your squadron can't put a team together for a local comp, doesn't want to put forth the effort for the wing comp, and the region is too big for effective competition?  I am sure I didn't read that right.

Our competition is NCC.  Without it we have no motivation to field a team.

What?

Horse hockey!

Your competition is not NCC. At the squadron level, your competition is the other squadrons in your group.  Your goal might be to go all the way to the National competition, and thats great.  But thats a GOAL, not competition.

And at least for 2014, without a National Competition, you're out of luck there. 

So why can't your goal be PCR competition?  Why can't your goal be wing competition?  How about a goal being "have a large and viable enough unit to send a drill team to the group, wing and region competition that consists only of cadets from this squadron?"

That sounds like a pretty darn good goal.

National Headquarters is not going to be able to restructure NCC to make it so that every group in Pacific Coast region fields a team.

Huh? I'm confused.  Why would NHQ restructure NCC so that every group in Pacific Region fields a team? I don't get what you mean here.

As far as "taking a year off to come back in 2015," I don't see any official statement anywhere committing to having a competition in 2015.  I don't see a list of people who are responsible for delivering the plan.  I don't see a list of sources where funding is going to come from.  All I have is an understanding that NCC is "on hold."

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

I'm sure we'll see guidance eventually. I do know the CP shop has its hands full with the CPP draft & possible roll out, the encampment guidelines draft and eventual roll out, and some other stuff in the hopper.  But just because nobody has graced your inbox with a "We'll be back in 2015!" email doesn't mean that isn't the plan.

Bummer that NCC 2014 is on hold.  The bottom line, however, is that it doesn't mean that you cannot participate in a local, wing or region competition. And win.

While I would like for NCC to continue in the future, you made a very strong argument and I agree 100%. If a squadron doesn't have enough interested members to field a drill team for a group competition, the group doesn't have enough participation from the squadrons for a group competition, the wing competition is not challenging enough because of the level and quality of participation from the groups, and the region competition is just lip service (a video demo and a test) and not a true competition, then the objectives of NCC are not really being met.

NCC is supposed to be a true national competition, not a free pass for one or two teams. As I said, I would like NCC to continue if, and only if, it's meeting the objectives of the program. In the case of Ron1319's drill team, I believe it's not, based on the information he's provided on his posts.

[Bluelakes 13]

So far, there has not been that level of statement that I have seen.  I believe the word has been put out to the Region DCPs (John K, can you confirm?) about wings and regions continuing to run their competitions if they so desire.

CORRECT!  The paragraph quoted at the beginning from Gen Carr also has "I strongly encourage Wing and Region Level competition to continue during this pause in 2014."