CAPP 52-24

[PHall]

Not only that, you can get in serious trouble by possessing other people's medication.

Except in states that prohibit minors from having their own prescription meds...

What state(s) is that?  Please provide a cite(s). Thank you.

[NCRblues]

Having just dealt with this issue at the last NBB, ill be happy to provide Department of heath scripture. (BTW, for those that are going to say it does not apply to CAP, the state of WI disagrees with you). Straight from WI DHS 175.19

"(b) Except as allowed in par. (c), all medication brought to
camp by a camper or staff member under 18 years of age shall be
kept in a locked unit and shall be administered by health services
staff qualified under sub. (5) (b), except that bee sting medication,
inhalers, an insulin syringe or other medication or device used in
the event of life−threatening situations may be carried by a camper
or staff member. Each camper or staff member 18 years of age or
older may take responsibility for the security of his or her personal
medication.
(c) When a camp's facilities are used for a program of 3 nights
or less, an adult leader of the group shall keep all medications
brought to camp by a camper or staff member under 18 years of
age in a locked unit. The adult leader shall be responsible for the
administration of the medications."

[tsrup]

Having just dealt with this issue at the last NBB, ill be happy to provide Department of heath scripture. (BTW, for those that are going to say it does not apply to CAP, the state of WI disagrees with you). Straight from WI DHS 175.19

"(b) Except as allowed in par. (c), all medication brought to
camp by a camper or staff member under 18 years of age shall be
kept in a locked unit and shall be administered by health services
staff qualified under sub. (5) (b), except that bee sting medication,
inhalers, an insulin syringe or other medication or device used in
the event of life−threatening situations may be carried by a camper
or staff member. Each camper or staff member 18 years of age or
older may take responsibility for the security of his or her personal
medication.
(c) When a camp's facilities are used for a program of 3 nights
or less, an adult leader of the group shall keep all medications
brought to camp by a camper or staff member under 18 years of
age in a locked unit. The adult leader shall be responsible for the
administration of the medications."

Then in this instance there would have to be a wing supplement to the regulation that would be vetted approved by higher headquarters as opposed to "The law is different here, so we'll just ignore this one".

I do agree that no CAP member should placed between violating local laws to be compliant with CAP regulations, however there is a process that with proactive thought and a willingness to work through problems before they arrise seems like it would solve this situation.


I'm not saying that WIWING is doing any of these things, I'm just pointing out that there is a lesson to be taken from this and that this can serve as an example to others facing similar types of circumstances.

[Eclipse]

Having just dealt with this issue at the last NBB, ill be happy to provide Department of heath scripture. (BTW, for those that are going to say it does not apply to CAP, the state of WI disagrees with you). Straight from WI DHS 175.19

The definition of "camp" here would seem to fit NBB, primarily because it takes place on non-federal land.  Many, if not most, encampments,
occur on military bases and other federal(ized) land and facilities where something like this (probably) wouldn't reach.

In this case, NBB would also appear to require permits and state inspections as well.

This is a situation where the state and NHQ GC's need to get together and issue guidance.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Extreme Prejudice and PHall-

You two almost killed me with your post of the derailed train, and the response.

Really, I have a cold, and reading both I became short of breath I literally was gasping for breath.

I am going to ask the moderator to require you to post something like "WARNING - The post that comes may be dangerous to your health."

Take care,

Flyer

[abdsp51]

I have yet to review the draft, but just wanted to chime in real quick.  This past weekend we held a Basic Cadet School from Fri evening to Sun evening.  This was the second one that I had staffed but the first that I had any real involvement in with planning.  On Fri night the staff were told especially the flt staff that this was not basic training and was not encampment, and they were to keep the yelling and screaming to a minimum.  For some reason here in CA they like all that, and I think that was one of the reasons why the BCS that was held in Mar didn't go so well.  This one went much more smoother and our basic cadets or students had more fun with it.  Hopefully the final draft of this for encampment will enable the cadets both students and staff alike to have more fun and retain material taught.   

[ol'fido]

My turn! A lot of these items have been covered already but I feel they bear re-repeating:

1.) Sick call. I agree 100% with the "exceptional circumstances" provision often exercised with Encampment. All the encampments and CTWs I've been to, we've always had cadet medics, supervised by a HSO, take custody of cadet medications during shakedown as part of the controlled substances provision....for aren't prescription meds just that? Isn't part of DDR education to teach that prescription meds can be abused just as much as "street" drugs? So yea, the meds are taken into Encampment custody and dispensed out to the respective cadets as needed. As mentioned on the blog, this prevents the cadets from accidentally overdosing, thinking that if they take more meds they'll get through Encampment easier, or their fellow flight members may ask them if they can try a bit out of simple curiosity -- or the cadet may simply lose the meds.

2.) Just call 'em cadets. It ain' hard. Call the rest the mentioned terms, cadre, etc.

3.) 9 hours of sleep? Good luck with that. You say lights out at 2100, but odds are the cadets aren't going to pipe down and go to sleep right away, especially the more chatterbox types. Unless you want to cut into tomorrow's time schedule, I'd shoot for 8. Plus how are we going to police this 9 hours? Especially if we're getting rid of CQ. Oh sure the senior member or two doing the CQ may be able to monitor for night owls, but he can't catch everything.

4.) I do agree with the idea of an actual grading system to help eliminate the "come and show up" cadets. WIWAC (JROTC mind you) and I went to Leadership Academy if you didn't pass the PT test to Navy standards on the second full day, you were sent home at your unit's expense. Same if you were going to fail out academically. I feel this is needed to reduce the number of cadets who are pressured by their Squadron, fellow Squadron members, or even parents to go to something that they aren't ready for, only to plod through it halfway, which brings down the encampment as a whole. Youth programs with a military base aren't for everyone. Am I dismissing them outright? Not at all, I'm the product of them, but still, they're not for everyone, and there needs to be the ability to remove those not cut out for it, or at least the intense parts.

5.) 20 minute meal times. Couple this with the fact that a lot of meal facilities are shared with our real military family, then once you factor in the time it takes to get the encampment set up in the meal system with the cashiers, making sure there's room in the facility, letting the real military members still make use of the facility, AND allow everyone this 20 minute minimum, you're now a good 2 hours behind schedule. This should be a simple provision of non-interference by cadre of cadets at meal. Even The Citadel has this, stating that upperclassmen shall not interfere with Knob meals after second rest is called.

6.) Parents at in-processing? NO! That is not the time for the parents to be there. Perhaps have an event just before in-processing, a relaxed social atmosphere with the parents and cadets, conducted probably by the Encampment Commander (the Senior Member, not the Cadet) to allow any "anxiety questions" and such to be addressed without fear of making the staff mad or getting yelled at. After this, then as the guide said the parents would be dismissed and in-processing would begin. All the training academies I went to with JROTC, and even in-processing with NROTC, there was no parent presence at the actual in-processing. It all ended before. Not to mention you have to take into account facility size. Our encampment (except for the Parris Island outing) has always had in-processing in the admin office of our assigned regular facility. This thing is small, about the size of a mobile classroom facility. It's crowded enough in there with the staff and cadets getting process in, now factor in one or two extra un-needed bodies and multiply times 100+ at times, and it becomes something really nasty. Parents, you can't hold little Johnny's hand the whole time, otherwise he's never going to grow up and will stay at home with you for the rest of his life as closet child.

Ok, soapbox is free for the next one!

I don't think anyone is guaranteed getting an actual nine(9) hours of sleep. The requirement is for the OPPORTUNITY  of nine hours of sleep in a bed. We usually check to make  sure the cadets are in THEIR bed, the lights are out, and everyone is quiet. No one is going to go around and make sure that 100 + cadets are actually snoozing or just laying there with their eyes closed.

In IL we include parents in the inprocessing arrangements by having a video/power point presentation for them showing what is going to go on that week while their cadets are actually going through in-processing. There is a designated time to say goodbyes and all that built into the process. Has worked for years.

[Eclipse]

I don't think anyone is guaranteed getting an actual nine(9) hours of sleep. The requirement is for the OPPORTUNITY  of nine hours of sleep in a bed. We usually check to make  sure the cadets are in THEIR bed, the lights are out, and everyone is quiet. No one is going to go around and make sure that 100 + cadets are actually snoozing or just laying there with their eyes closed.

I agree - you can't submit a schedule with 7 hours of lights out and expect it to be approved or pass muster.

That muster, presumably, now being someone from Wing, since it appears the State Directors LRADO's are no longer the approving
authority for the form 20's.

[Garibaldi]

I want to address the sleeping issue. As long as I've been involved in CAP, cadets don't sleep at night. Period. Especially at a Wing activity. Regardless of how much you wear them out, they don't sleep at night. Even forbidding energy drinks and any form of caffeine doesn't work. They are too jacked up on youthful hormones and seeing old and new friends and the excitement of the activity in question. Mandating 8 or 9 hours for sleep will not solve the issue, because any down time just means more time for them to talk and screw around.

By the second or third day, the cadets are pretty much worn out past their personal wall, and will nap wherever and whenever they can, but that doesn't translate into sleeping their 8 or 9 hours at night. Cadets will nod off during classes, van trips, and any time they're stationary for more than two minutes, even at attention, but they won't sleep at night.

I've been to my fair share of encampments, both as a cadet and senior. Cadets. Don't. Sleep. No matter how many times I've patrolled the barracks or cottages as part of my TAC duties, I've had to shut the cadets up each and every trip through. Eventually, exhaustion wins but generally, with the excitement of the activity, three or four hours is all you're going to get out of them.

Directives, regulations, charts, PowerPoint slides, parental notification...nothing works. Cadets will just continue to squander their free time not sleeping when they're supposed to. It's a fact of teen life, and like Ferris Bueller said: Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

[NIN]

While I won't disagree that you have a hard time getting cadets to sleep, I should note that my experience is that after the first day or two, the pace of the activity dictates their sleeping patterns. 

My personal experience (as a cadet) was that I slept like a _log_ at encampment.  Sure, the first couple nights, the lights go out, you're laying in your bunk and its like Mom & Dad enforcing you to sleep: just cuz the lights are out doesn't mean you're sawing logs.  You lay there, looking at the ceiling and thinking "Ok, any time now would be nice.."

And then your buddy 3 bunks down makes a fart sound and 13 people crack up.  After that, its "Game on" and you probably don't actually get to sleep until after 11pm.

But by the 2nd or 3rd night, you walk into a barracks at 9:30, and everybody is asleep: flight staff, TAC officer, and all the cadets.

Modern teenagers and sleep schedules go together like oil and water, but if the day is busy/challenging enough, and the flight staff is on top of their cadets in classes, then they either go face-first into their soup at dinner, or they're out after a hot shower.

It always cracks me up the first couple days. Cadets show up with their modern gamer sleep schedule: Play video games until 4-5 am, sleep till noon, bum around for hours, then start playing video games again.  They're all goofed up that first day, and likely to not fall asleep easily that first night.  Then 0530 comes along, first call!  You have to use a cattle prod to get them to PT.  That 2nd day is a somnambulist's wet dream: zombie cadets, nodding heads in classes, etc.   That 2nd night they're eyeing their bunk by 7:30pm.

But I think you'll find that 8 hrs is about the max you can push it.

[Eclipse]

I want to address the sleeping issue. As long as I've been involved in CAP, cadets don't sleep at night. Period.

That does not jive with my experience.  There's always a few who has issues winding down, and if you let
them goof off unsupervised they will try to stay up all night, but the majority are dead to the world 5 minutes after lights out.

[PA Guy]

I want to address the sleeping issue. As long as I've been involved in CAP, cadets don't sleep at night. Period.

Non concur. As NIN said I don't care if they stare at the ceiling all night but they will be in their bed and and not talking or disturbing others.

I think this also goes to the "culture" of encampments. If part of the cadet lore in your Wing is playing grab #$@ after lights out you have to end that particular bit lore.  You clearly explain your expectations to both "students" and cadet staff then follow up with swift and real consequences if your expectations are not met. It is amazing what sending a cadet home with no encampment credit for chronic violations will accomplish.  Cadets will continue to engage in this behavior as long as they know there are no real consequences.

Failure to meet this requirement is a failure in leadership. This is like saying we can't meet the standard so we will lower the standard. Students and cadet staff don't dictate policy at encampment.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I slept each and every night as a cadet at encampment. Then again I fall asleep whenever I can get a few zs

[NCRblues]

I agree - you can't submit a schedule with 7 hours of lights out and expect it to be approved or pass muster.

That muster, presumably, now being someone from Wing, since it appears the State Directors LRADO's are no longer the approving
authority for the form 20's.

Wouldn't that person be the Wing DCP, Or Region DCP for a Region Encampment?

[Eclipse]

As far as I in know that is still TBD.