NBB request for Handheld Radios

[kd8gua]

So, while this deals with National Blue Beret, I have a question regarding radio usage there.

One of the seniors in my squadron has been selected as a TAC for NBB. They are requesting that every TAC brings an EF Johnson handheld with them to the event. My unit has a handheld, currently assigned to a different member. As Comm Officer I have no problems reassigning the radio for the two weeks that this senior will be at NBB. However, I am not clear on what the regs state. My interpretation of the regs is as follows:

You go to an event (non ES mission... think various Cadet Program activities, NCSAs, Encampment, etc.), they issue radios to staff, you do not necessarily need to have completed BCUT or ACUT to use the radio for the duration of the event.

You go to an event (same types as above) that requires you to bring a radio, you have to have ACUT first in order to be assigned a CAP radio from your home unit to use for the duration of the event. Or can you have BCUT and be temporarily assigned the CAP radio?

Can someone clarify for me?

[Eeyore]

BCUT is a pre-requisite to attend NBB.

In this circumstance, I do not believe you would be in violation of regulations if you temporarily issued the radio to the member. They are not operating the radio under a permanent call sign like they would be in their home wing. NBB uses temporary, activity call signs during the event.

[Eclipse]

The rules are clear, you have to have at least a BCUT to operate, and an ACut to be issued a corporate radio or purchase your own.  The type of activity is not a factor or a relief to the regs, the member meets the spec or doesn't.

[Eclipse]

Also no activity should be issuing radios to members who are not properly licensed.

[lordmonar]

If the activity does not have the equipment to issue....then they have to ask for it somewhere.

I think asking your tacs to bring their own radios is a good way of solving the problem.

As far as the rules go.....the assets do not belong to any individual.
If your local mission can support giving up a radio for two weeks....it takes about 20 seconds in ORMS to issue it to the new member.

[Noble Six]

So, while this deals with National Blue Beret, I have a question regarding radio usage there.

One of the seniors in my squadron has been selected as a TAC for NBB. They are requesting that every TAC brings an EF Johnson handheld with them to the event. My unit has a handheld, currently assigned to a different member. As Comm Officer I have no problems reassigning the radio for the two weeks that this senior will be at NBB. However, I am not clear on what the regs state. My interpretation of the regs is as follows:

You go to an event (non ES mission... think various Cadet Program activities, NCSAs, Encampment, etc.), they issue radios to staff, you do not necessarily need to have completed BCUT or ACUT to use the radio for the duration of the event.







NBB is the largest Air Force assigned mission in this organization.
You go to an event (same types as above) that requires you to bring a radio, you have to have ACUT first in order to be assigned a CAP radio from your home unit to use for the duration of the event. Or can you have BCUT and be temporarily assigned the CAP radio?

Can someone clarify for me?

[Larry Mangum]

Actually, NESA, is the largest AFAM mission run by CAP. Almost 700 people were run through Camp Atterbury last year,

[kd8gua]

If the activity does not have the equipment to issue....then they have to ask for it somewhere.

I think asking your tacs to bring their own radios is a good way of solving the problem.

As far as the rules go.....the assets do not belong to any individual.
If your local mission can support giving up a radio for two weeks....it takes about 20 seconds in ORMS to issue it to the new member.

But then I guess the question is much simpler... does that member need ACUT since they will need to be assigned a radio?

[NCRblues]

Actually, NESA, is the largest AFAM mission run by CAP. Almost 700 people were run through Camp Atterbury last year,

What actual search and rescue missions occur at NESA? Is it just a training mission or an actual mission with a mission number from the AF?

[Larry Mangum]

Actually, NESA, is the largest AFAM mission run by CAP. Almost 700 people were run through Camp Atterbury last year,

What actual search and rescue missions occur at NESA? Is it just a training mission or an actual mission with a mission number from the AF?

Show me an actual Search and Rescue mission at NBB, checking a list of tail numbers of aircraft that have landed, and finding that the pilot simply failed to close his flight plan, does not to my mind equate to a SAR mission.  NESA  in the past has responded to actual SAR's and every memebr there is required to be ready to deploy.   

Before you get all defensive and into flame mode, NBB is a great activity, but just like Hawk or NESA, it is not the end all. All three tun out their share of outstanding members and their share of not so outstanding ones.

[Spaceman3750]

Actually, NESA, is the largest AFAM mission run by CAP. Almost 700 people were run through Camp Atterbury last year,

What actual search and rescue missions occur at NESA? Is it just a training mission or an actual mission with a mission number from the AF?

It has an AFAM number, same type as the ones you can get locally.

[Eclipse]

But then I guess the question is much simpler... does that member need ACUT since they will need to be assigned a radio?

Yes.

[NCRblues]

Actually, NESA, is the largest AFAM mission run by CAP. Almost 700 people were run through Camp Atterbury last year,

What actual search and rescue missions occur at NESA? Is it just a training mission or an actual mission with a mission number from the AF?

Show me an actual Search and Rescue mission at NBB, checking a list of tail numbers of aircraft that have landed, and finding that the pilot simply failed to close his flight plan, does not to my mind equate to a SAR mission.  NESA  in the past has responded to actual SAR's and every memebr there is required to be ready to deploy.   

Before you get all defensive and into flame mode, NBB is a great activity, but just like Hawk or NESA, it is not the end all. All three tun out their share of outstanding members and their share of not so outstanding ones.

I can give you 3 right off the bat without even looking into my copy of the offical records.

First one, NBB 2011. F-16 lost break power overrun runway. CAP flight was on warbirds security detail at the edge of runway 36. F16 pilot has his head slammed into (something, we were never informed what) and is knocked silly. The cadets react by pushing crowds back, the flight commander radios in details to the fire dept that is on the other side of the airfield and requests medical aid. The Cadets maintain a perimeter holding back THOUSANDS of bystanders that want to snap pictures of interfere. One cadet sees the engine ignite on fire, tells the rest of the flight to back the crowd back, and beings screaming for the pilot of the f-16 to follow the sounds of his voice (the pilot had climbed down and was basically stunned and lost). The Alabama governor and adjutant general praise CAP and our fast and well maintained response for saving lives on the flight line, keeping the pilot safe and directing medical and fire into the scene. Every flight and SM at NBB assisted with site security for hours after.

Second, NBB 2010. Jack Rouch of rouch racing crashes his Cessna jet into the side of the runway 36 about 50 feet from 2 female cadets operating ES tower south. Long story really short, NBB was praised with responding and assisting the overwhelmed fire rescue by the FAA, NTSB and local sheriffs office. And I shall quote the NTSB agent in charge... "Without the quick and well planned response by members of the Civil Air Patrol, our incident scene would have been overrun and help in the form of fire rescue would have been seriously hindered by the amount of bystanders attempting to reach the scene. Because of CAP help, the NTSB has a clean field to conduct a through investigation into the accident."

Third, NBB 2005. 4 Aircraft in route from the Chicago area go missing during a storm. An ELT is overheard by a passing B-25. With limited resources the AF ask NBB in conjunction with WI wing to conduct a full on search. Really long story short again, all of NBB roles out on GT, while WI wing puts A/C in the air. 3 of the 4 A/C are found at different airports. The 4th is located by a WI wing A/C in a field with ELT sounding. 2 fatalities. Also same year, NBB responds to drunk pilot who ground looped his A/C after the airport was closed (read, no flight line fire rescue, should not have been landing at 9pm at night). NBB directly credited with saving life and property.

A find is a find. Overdue, accidental set off of ELTs whatever. It's all part of our mission. NBB does HUNDREDS of them in 2 weeks. Give some respect. We work our &%E off...

[SarDragon]

The rules are clear, you have to have at least a BCUT to operate, and an ACut to be issued a corporate radio or purchase your own.  The type of activity is not a factor or a relief to the regs, the member meets the spec or doesn't.

The ACUT is associated with the issuance of a call sign. I see no problem whatsoever with BCUT holders operating temporarily issued corporate assets.

I've been in the Comm game for over 10 years, and have neither seen nor used a more stringent requirement.

[Eclipse]

CAPR 100-1

5-1. Requirements for Operating a CAP Radio Station. CAP radio stations are authorized by the Federal Government through the NTIA for emergency, training, and operational activities. Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. No CAP member may attend CAP radio operator training without first completing on-line CAP Operational Security (OPSEC) Training and having agreed to the on-line non-disclosure agreement.

5-3. Advanced Communications User Training. Pending introduction of the ICUT course, members requiring advanced training take the Advanced Communications User Training (ACUT) course. Specifically, those individuals who operate their own radio station on CAP frequencies, who want to pursue the Communications Officer Specialty Training, or who assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset require advance training. This training will be conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. No card or form is required as proof of this training. It is simply recorded in the individual's personnel records (CAPF 45 or CAPF 66). Before registering a radio station to a member, the director of communications or licensing officer will validate that the member has met this training requirement.

BCUT to use someone else's equipment, ACUT to be issued equipment in your name or buy your own.  If a member wants to lend another qualified member his radio for an activity, no issue, I do it all the time, however the equipment cannot e transferred to the other member unless they have an ACUT, and some members would rightly be reluctant to hand $1800 to another member without an official transfer of responsibility.

But regardless of the "issue" issue, you can use a CAP radio unless you've had BCUT training or are under the direct supervision of someone who has.

[Fubar]

I was a member of a group that maintained a cache of over 100 portables that were intended to be used during large scale disasters. They had interoperability frequencies in them and were intended to be issued to Police/Fire/EMS from outside the area who may not have those frequencies in their radios. Have 'em sign for them and off they went.

Money doesn't grow on trees obviously, but if we could afford it, I think it would be a good idea to maintain a cache of radio equipment that national could FEDEX anywhere in the country for a large scale disaster or pre-planned event (like NBB). They could be used to augment wing resources or eliminate the need for wings to loose resources when their members deploy for whatever reason (emergency or otherwise).

Heck, they could throw in a suitcase repeater and antenna and I bet the whole city of Oshkosh could be covered.

[cap235629]

CAPR 100-1

5-1. Requirements for Operating a CAP Radio Station. CAP radio stations are authorized by the Federal Government through the NTIA for emergency, training, and operational activities. Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. No CAP member may attend CAP radio operator training without first completing on-line CAP Operational Security (OPSEC) Training and having agreed to the on-line non-disclosure agreement.

5-3. Advanced Communications User Training. Pending introduction of the ICUT course, members requiring advanced training take the Advanced Communications User Training (ACUT) course. Specifically, those individuals who operate their own radio station on CAP frequencies, who want to pursue the Communications Officer Specialty Training, or who assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset require advance training. This training will be conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. No card or form is required as proof of this training. It is simply recorded in the individual's personnel records (CAPF 45 or CAPF 66). Before registering a radio station to a member, the director of communications or licensing officer will validate that the member has met this training requirement.

BCUT to use someone else's equipment, ACUT to be issued equipment in your name or buy your own.  If a member wants to lend another qualified member his radio for an activity, no issue, I do it all the time, however the equipment cannot e transferred to the other member unless they have an ACUT, and some members would rightly be reluctant to hand $1800 to another member without an official transfer of responsibility.

But regardless of the "issue" issue, you can use a CAP radio unless you've had BCUT training or are under the direct supervision of someone who has.

Bob by your interpretation a Ground Team Leader would have to have ACUT as according to the TOA they are assigned a radio.  ACUT is not a requirement to become a GTL.  If you are issued a Wing callsign you have to have ACUT.  If you have a radio issued to you as a temporary issue, I see no issue.  At NBB they will be under constant supervision so I contend that BCUT shouldn't even be required.

[isuhawkeye]

three things

1.  What happened to the radio Cache that was previously shipped to NBB from NHQ for this and other times when bulk hand helds were needed

2.  The ramp checking and recording of tail numbers goes to support a much larger SAR mission.  If the overdue aircraft is not at KOSH then where is is.  By eliminating one site we we can place resources where they are needed

3.  in 1999 I was awarded a commanders commendation for my flights response to the fiery wreck of a corsair and bearcat on the field.  We provided site security, and communications support for warbirds crash rescue and oshkosh fd.

[Al Sayre]

All (comm) equipment issued to the squadron is essentially assigned to the SQ/CC until he/she assigns it to another member.  There is no requirement for a SQ/CC to even have a BCUT.  The person it's being temporarily assigned to isn't going to "assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset".  There is also no requirement that he/she be "issued a corporate radio asset", but simply a request that if one is available that they bring it.  I don't believe that acting as a TAC at NBB is the staff position the regulation is referring to, rather a (semi)permanent Squadron/Group/Wing/ Region staff position such as Communications Officer, ES Officer, etc. 

[Robborsari]

Not sure what a TAC is but it strikes me that if they are required to bring their own radio you should send someone who is qualified to use it.  You could also properly train the guy you want to send.  Bcut + Acut is not especially difficult to pass.  Given the stories posted in this thread, having untrained people on the radio net during those emergencies could negatively impact the response.