NER Imposes Term Limits?

[titanII]

Being a good leader is as much nature as it is nurture.

That's not what the leadership books say...

"The Air Force's offi-
cial view on leadership states that leadership can be
built through experience, education, and training."
-Learn to Lead, chapter 3

[Eclipse]

I'd have to go with Lord on the nature / nuture point.  I think you can build an effective "manager", but leaders are born.

With that said, who's doing that training?  If someone was around to effectively build a new CC, you'd likely not have to go outside to start with.

There's no way somebody off the street, with no military or CAP experience, is going to be much use as even a member for 6-months to a year, let alone as a commander.  Remember, while he's trying to find the bridge, the ship is still moving, and if it is a case where some newb non-member had to be brought in, then odds are no one else is in the wheelhouse, either.

[Ned]

  I think you can build an effective "manager", but leaders are born.

Yup, absolutely. 

That's why we are changing the name of that portion of the cadet program to the "Management Laboratory."   

[bosshawk]

Couldn't resist adding my .01.5 cents worth on this issue, which happens to be one of my pet peeves.  I found, in my 18 years in CAP, far too many folks who got "leadership" mixed up with "management" and were prone to substituting one for the other.  They are two distinct and different characteristics in a person.  Lots of people can be managers: few can be leaders and that seems to be a common problem throughout a lot of the volunteer organzations to which I have belonged: lots of managers, few leaders.

[lordmonar]

Being a good leader is as much nature as it is nurture.

That's not what the leadership books say...

"The Air Force's offi-
cial view on leadership states that leadership can be
built through experience, education, and training."
-Learn to Lead, chapter 3

Yes....and I don't disagree with that.  To use analogy....any 12 year old can be taught to play base ball.....but only a select few will ever make it to the Majors.
Getting there is a combination of natural talent, personal commitment, training and a bit of luck.

Leaders like base ball players can be built theough experince, education and training.....but there is a natural ability factor in there as well.

[lordmonar]

On the leadership/managment dicotomy.


I disagree that they are two things......and a lot of this is just terminolgy.

A leader is one who "gets the mission done".

Leadership is both managment and what I call motivation.

You can't be a good leader if you don't have a good balance of both of these abilities.  You may be able to talk eskimos into buying swim suits....but if you can do the managment functions  then you will fail to get the mission done and fail as a leader.

Likewise you may be the bean counter from hell and organised to the T.....but if you can't understand what makes your people tick you will fail to get the mission done and fail as a leader.

All of these skills can be taught.  But it is very very hard to teach the ART of if it.   And sometimes to be a great leader you have to be born to it.
Just like there are only a hand full of Michelangelos, Picasso, rembrand, etc.....there are only a hand full of Pattons, Shermans, Rommels, etc.

But to say that leaders are born not made is not true as well.

Okay.....end of rant.

[Майор Хаткевич]

My biggest issue in my "Business Leadership" class was the fact that they basically covered how to manage people as being leadership.

While leadership involves management, most Managers would lead their subordinates off a cliff within minutes.

[JeffDG]

My biggest issue in my "Business Leadership" class was the fact that they basically covered how to manage people as being leadership.

While leadership involves management, most Managers would lead their subordinates off a cliff within minutes.

The way I've always defined the difference between management and leadership is:

A good manager will take a defined goal and get the organization there.
A good leader will define what that goal should be.

I've met incredible leaders who couldn't manage to get out of a wet paper bag.  They saw the goal over the horizon and could explain that goal in a way that made you want to get there, but actually ask them to figure out the details and they were lost...they just couldn't get the small steps figured out right, but still had an excellent vision for the future.

By the same token, I've seen first-class managers who were not leaders.  Give them a goal, and by God they'll get you there, but ask them where the organization should go, and they don't have a clue.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think you're lumping visionaries with leaders. Overall though I agree.

[Al Sayre]

You manage systems and programs, you lead people...

[Spaceman3750]

Managers are put there by higher power. Leaders have followers who follow because they think it's right. You can be a leader among your peers without being appointed a manager.

[davedove]

I learned this difference at RSC last month:

A manager will make sure the path through the jungle is completed by assuring the machetes are sharp, the workers are fed, etc.

A leader will climb a tree and tell you you're going in the wrong direction.

[NIN]

My biggest issue in my "Business Leadership" class was the fact that they basically covered how to manage people as being leadership.

While leadership involves management, most Managers would lead their subordinates off a cliff within minutes.

I impressed the hell out of a CFO by saying "I prefer to manage thru leadership rather than try to lead by management" in an interview once.

Must have been the right thing to say: it got me the job.

[Майор Хаткевич]

My biggest issue in my "Business Leadership" class was the fact that they basically covered how to manage people as being leadership.

While leadership involves management, most Managers would lead their subordinates off a cliff within minutes.

I impressed the hell out of a CFO by saying "I prefer to manage thru leadership rather than try to lead by management" in an interview once.

Must have been the right thing to say: it got me the job.

Zing!

Stolen.

[RADIOMAN015]

Gonna be a lot of new CCs in 6 months.

Well I'm bringing this back up again, especially with the last paragraph.......

6. Should any wing commander find that a subordinate unit, squadron or flight, cannot replace its
commander as to no effort has been made to recruit and train a replacement, that squadron or
flight should be merged into another nearby unit that is meeting the wing's tenure instructions......

How much responsibility do wing commanders have in ensuring this is being done.  Surely one would expect a phase in period in this policy, perhaps 1 year .   How long does it take to successfully train a new squadron commander

I don't think many wing commanders are interested in reducing the number of units in their areas.  With some units closing  possibly due to this policy, basically the member is the one that is impacted negatively by having to travel further to meetings -- will most stay in or opted for other closer volunteer opportunities   Also some units may have  usage of government facilities and closing that unit will mean a loss of that facility to CAP.

Again are we causing problems that don't exist by forcing out effective adult leadership   IF a unit is passing it's inspection, doing well with retention, and both senior & cadet members are progressing, do we really need to do this    

Mike I'm sure as you know we have at least 4 Squadron Commander's in the wing right now that based upon this policy wouldn't be able to get a waiver.   Also as many of us know one unit 20+ years with one commander for most of these years, closed last spring due to a lack of senior members to support the unit    
RM

[ZigZag911]

My experience (over 40 years in CAP) has been that "Commander for Life" is good neither for the individual nor the unit.

Are there exceptions? Sure, rarely...on the other hand, a member that is so deeply devoted to a squadron is going to remain so in any capacity of service.

None of us is indispensable, and we all have an obligation to nurture new leaders.

Not everyone is a natural leader, but many who are efficient, effective managers and organizers can be motivated/guided in developing their leadership potential.

[KyCAP]

My guess is that following recent change in National Commander that this policy will be standard practice across all regions.  As Eclipse noted, it started in GLR and it roto-rooted some dead weight, but at the same time took some toll on effective leaders runnng their programs.   Hard to say what the outcome was other than a "vanilla" way to make change that could have been take head-on in my opinion.    But, wasn't my issue to solve and "something" happened rather than "nothing".  I am standing by to see what the changes are on the horizon with our new leadership as the transition occurs.   I can say for one thing, my only "need" from Col. Carr was during the Ice Storm back in '09 and he lit the fires and kicked the tires at NHQ.  So, I am standing by.

[PHall]

My guess is that following recent change in National Commander that this policy will be standard practice across all regions.  As Eclipse noted, it started in GLR and it roto-rooted some dead weight, but at the same time took some toll on effective leaders runnng their programs.   Hard to say what the outcome was other than a "vanilla" way to make change that could have been take head-on in my opinion.    But, wasn't my issue to solve and "something" happened rather than "nothing".  I am standing by to see what the changes are on the horizon with our new leadership as the transition occurs.   I can say for one thing, my only "need" from Col. Carr was during the Ice Storm back in '09 and he lit the fires and kicked the tires at NHQ.  So, I am standing by.

It didn't start in GLR. PCR has had this policy for over 10 years now.

[MSG Mac]

Commanders who stay too long will stagnate or worse  develop a culture that revolves aroundhim and not the various CAP missions. I firmlyu believe that three years is more than enough time to stay in command of any organization, train a replacement, and step aside. Hopefully leaving the unit better than he found it.

[Eclipse]

This is another of those policies that just needs to be written down and enforced, nationwide.  It has to be fair for all, otherwise it only penalizes
the people who pay attention to it or care about CAP and their jobs.

If the clock is ticking, it's ticking, but nothing is more demoralizing to an effective commander to know that because he's aware of the policy, he's in his lame duck year and looking for a successor, while around him are people who don't even know there is a limit, and won't be changed out unless they actually
say something.