PT standards lowering

[ProdigalJim]

What is a PWIISXer?

All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X.  Move S after the second I, run them together.

Wow. Thanks.

For the first time in my adult life, I now feel demographically irrelevant...

[Майор Хаткевич]

What is a PWIISXer?

All game consoles rolled into one. PS, WII, X.  Move S after the second I, run them together.

Wow. Thanks.

For the first time in my adult life, I now feel demographically irrelevant...

Get with the times, old man!


:angel:

[coudano]

No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help.  CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".

Apart from the fact that most of the bottom 25% of American youth *could* perform better at PT if they so chose, and had a reason and motivation to do so...

Again as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....

They might not get the bug to cut their hair and shine their shoes either, but we require that too...  (?)
Or to pass their tests.  25% of American youth don't have the academics prowess to score well enough to pass our tests either, how dare we require 80% to pass, we're telling all those stupid kids not to even join.  Come on, man.

we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.

Yah, I try to gate keep at every single achievement, but especially at the phase breaks.
Not just on PT, but on every category of cadet membership.

[Ron1319]

Why would we not have time to help a cadet?  I've been working with one cadet regularly, checking in with them on their progress, and encouraging them.  They've lost a lot of weight, are getting faster every month, and are continuing to make great progress.  It's a small amount of time in exchange for the benefit to the cadet's life.  Isn't that why we do this?

[coudano]

Why would we not have time to help a cadet?  I've been working with one cadet regularly, checking in with them on their progress, and encouraging them.  They've lost a lot of weight, are getting faster every month, and are continuing to make great progress.  It's a small amount of time in exchange for the benefit to the cadet's life.  Isn't that why we do this?

Even better, we can encourage our cadet NCO's and Officers, to not only set example but aslo check on their fellow junior cadets in this way, we are double and triple winning (!)   Those senior cadets probably see the junior cadets more often than we do anyway, like, every day at school.

[lordmonar]

No....that means that 25% of the american population CANNOT pass their curry with out a lot of help.  CAP does not have the time to give them that help....so by default we are telling 25% of our target audiance "Don't bother to join".

Apart from the fact that most of the bottom 25% of American youth *could* perform better at PT if they so chose, and had a reason and motivation to do so...

Again as the cadet progresses in the program he may or may not get the PT bug and work VERY hard to improve and make it to Spaatz and 75th Percentile....

They might not get the bug to cut their hair and shine their shoes either, but we require that too...  (?)
Or to pass their tests.  25% of American youth don't have the academics prowess to score well enough to pass our tests either, how dare we require 80% to pass, we're telling all those stupid kids not to even join.  Come on, man.

we gate keep at Mitchell not at Curry.

Yah, I try to gate keep at every single achievement, but especially at the phase breaks.
Not just on PT, but on every category of cadet membership.

Yep and that is my point......Joining CAP and then getting motivated to do something to get fit....but you can't do anything "fun" in CAP until you get your Curry....so some 12 year old over weight, under exercise cadet is going to be motivated in what way?  Let's say it take him six months to get from can't do a single push up to passing his 25th percentile.

My point is as a CP guy....my ideal world would be that we are an organisation that takes just about everyone and MAKE THEM into what we want them to be.  IMHO the PT program is a major road block to getting the cadet hooked, keeping him engaged and moving him forward.

I am not saying we need to change our "end state" standards (at least for Mitchell)....only how we gate keep up to that point.

So....in my world...Cadet Newguy would have to do the PT test to get Curry....those results would establish his base line.  For each promotion beyond that he would have to show IMPROVEMENT upto the Mitchell requirements. 

So he does only 1 push up for his curry....he must do alteast 2 to get his Arnold. This would continue until he goes for his Mitchell where he would have to do 18-37 base on his age.

So we don't gate keep at Curry or any acheivement through 6 and we do hold him to a standard at Mitchell.

That would give us 18 months to work with the cadet before he hits a road block due to PT.

As for the requirements beyond Mitchell.....again I would simply keep the 50th percentile as the standard and look for other ways to encourage our cadets to move up into the higher percentages.....I have seen too many cadets drop out after they make Mitchell because they get road blocked due to PT....and how many people have we heard about who missed getting Spaatz because of PT?  When the standard is HIGHER then the USAF requires for its own PJs?

As for comparing the PT bug with hair cutting and shoe shining.....Yes we require that as well...but we don't change those standards as the move up.  We say if it meets 39-1 standards you are done...we don't make them get a high and tight for Mitchel or require them to have super Honor guard shines for Eaker.

I guess it is that my focus is that CAP is a leadership/citezenship training program first and fore most.  While being physically fit is important and should be part of our program....the STANDARDS that we have chosen (more or less arbitrarly) are a hinderance to getting the that mission done.
When 25% of the population can't meet our entry criteria and will have to stay in the entry mode until they do.....means that we will loose a major percentage of them because they don't get to do anything fun. 

Remember that we as adults see thing differently than our cadets......if we want to stop the "give me" attitudes of our youth...then we have to hook them and keep them long enough for us to make those cognitive and emotional changes.   And I think that our numbers bear me out when I say that I don't think we are doing that.   When only 25% of those who join ever make it to Write Brothers....and only less the 1% ever complete the whole program......We need to look for any and all artificial road blocks were are putting into our program.

[Ron1319]

I don't know of anybody who missed their Spaatz because of the PT requirement. 

CAPM 52-16, page 4: "CAP expects each cadet to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program."

CAPP 52-18 "Category II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation. Cadets temporarily restricted from a
portion of the CPFT are still required to complete and pass the events they are not restricted from. Cadets in
this category will not attempt the CPFT required for the Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart, or Eaker Awards,
or be administered the Spaatz examination until they return to Category I or are determined by a physician
to meet the Category III or IV conditions listed below."

You can waive them up to the Wright Brothers achievement on a Category II for obesity and work with them however you'd like.

[lordmonar]

I don't know of anybody who missed their Spaatz because of the PT requirement. 

CAPM 52-16, page 4: "CAP expects each cadet to exercise regularly and participate in the unit's physical fitness program."

CAPP 52-18 "Category II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation. Cadets temporarily restricted from a
portion of the CPFT are still required to complete and pass the events they are not restricted from. Cadets in
this category will not attempt the CPFT required for the Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart, or Eaker Awards,
or be administered the Spaatz examination until they return to Category I or are determined by a physician
to meet the Category III or IV conditions listed below."

You can waive them up to the Wright Brothers achievement on a Category II for obesity and work with them however you'd like.

So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN!  That is not a PT program. 

If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..

[coudano]

Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.

I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)

I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA?  And the lack of direction?  And life distractions?  Sure.  But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.

[Ron1319]

So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN!  That is not a PT program. 

If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..

No, obesity is listed as a temporary condition, not a Cat III or Cat IV option.

[Eclipse]

I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA?  And the lack of direction?  And life distractions?  Sure.  But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.

I have to go with coudano on this.  Yes, far too many cadets blow Spaatz because of PT, but not because the standard is too high, but
because the failed to take it seriously and prepare.  I've seen or been privy to, far too many who show up and it becomes obvious
they haven't done any preparation of practice.  Everyone has a watch, why would you waste the SD's time (or whomever its going to be
now) when you're hitting the mile at twice the time?  It's one thing to be sick or have a bad day and miss is by a slim margin, but
what ere they expecting?  Michael Landon to swoop in at the last minute and carry them across?

The one component a cadet would never blow is PT, since that's the one piece where they can literally practice the test.

As to reducing or removing the early requirements, some of that comes down to whether we are to be a rec center or a paramilitary
cadet program.  Our job is not to "fix" kids, our job is to offer opportunity to those kids who show the initiative to take the mantle and
grow what they are already doing as a matter of course.

[lordmonar]

Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.

I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)

I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA?  And the lack of direction?  And life distractions?  Sure.  But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.

I can name 15 who have left my squadron in the last year....partly due to stagnation due to PT failures.
I know seveal people who failed to get Spaatz due to PT.
I know one cadet who is right now only one sit up away from Spaatz.
I know seveal cadets who have stalled in the officer ranks due to PT.

[lordmonar]

So the big fat cadet who has been on Cat II for six months gets his doctor to sign a paper to say "yes he's fat" and now he is CAT IV and NEVER HAS TO DO PT AGAIN!  That is not a PT program. 

If we do a base line and improvement system....we don't have to do any mental gymnastics and we have more time to work with the cadets before we have to re-evaluate or do some remedial training to get them past Mitchell..

No, obesity is listed as a temporary condition, not a Cat III or Cat IV option.

Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."

Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic.   Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.

[Ron1319]

I have 75 cadets under my command.  56 have passing PFT scores recorded.  Only 1 has completed all of the requirements for promotion except for the PFT. 

[lordmonar]

I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA?  And the lack of direction?  And life distractions?  Sure.  But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.

I have to go with coudano on this.  Yes, far too many cadets blow Spaatz because of PT, but not because the standard is too high, but
because the failed to take it seriously and prepare.  I've seen or been privy to, far too many who show up and it becomes obvious
they haven't done any preparation of practice.  Everyone has a watch, why would you waste the SD's time (or whomever its going to be
now) when you're hitting the mile at twice the time?  It's one thing to be sick or have a bad day and miss is by a slim margin, but
what ere they expecting?  Michael Landon to swoop in at the last minute and carry them across?

The one component a cadet would never blow is PT, since that's the one piece where they can literally practice the test.

As to reducing or removing the early requirements, some of that comes down to whether we are to be a rec center or a paramilitary
cadet program.  Our job is not to "fix" kids, our job is to offer opportunity to those kids who show the initiative to take the mantle and
grow what they are already doing as a matter of course.

You can't offere opportunities to kids who are not there.  And if you think we should only offer opportunties to kids who, at the age of 12, show initiative to take on the mantle and grow......No wonder the BSA beats our butts with numbers, alumi, and funding.

I guess YMMV.

[Ron1319]

Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."

Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic.   Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.

It clearly says, "A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness."

Which puts obesity into a temporary category.  It could be read either way, but I don't think they have a solid case for Cat III or Cat IV for obesity.

[lordmonar]

I have 75 cadets under my command.  56 have passing PFT scores recorded.  Only 1 has completed all of the requirements for promotion except for the PFT.

Cool.....very good.  Now you got any who have not promoted for six months because of PT and then drops out?  How much time do you have to spend on PT?  How many potential cadets took one look at your PT program and said....nope not for me....I'll go join the boy scouts?

If you are making it work.....good for you.....let's get your program published on line so I can do it too.

[lordmonar]

Look at the 52-16 again.....you get a doctor to sign off as a "indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician."

Obesity is a "condition" and the doctor can say it is chronic.   Again.......this is barracks lawerying on how to get your cadets to beat the intent of the system.

It clearly says, "A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness."

Which puts obesity into a temporary category.  It could be read either way, but I don't think they have a solid case for Cat III or Cat IV for obesity.

Ah....but here is the rub.......the SQUADRON COMMANDER cannot counter a CAT III or CAT IV letter from a Doctor!

b. Category I – Unrestricted. Cadets assigned to Category I are in good health and may participate in the physical fitness program without restriction.
c. Category II – Temporarily Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category II are temporarily restricted from all or part of the Cadet Physical Fitness Training (CPFT) due to a temporary condition or injury. Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Normally, cadets will not exceed 6 months in this category without their condition being re-evaluated. To qualify for promotions while assigned to Category II, cadets must pass the CPFT events from which they are not restricted, with waived events being scored as a "pass" (see paragraph 5-8). However, cadets may not earn milestone awards while assigned to this category; they must wait until they return to Category I, or meet the Category III or IV criteria described below.
d. Category III – Partially Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category III are indefinitely or permanently restricted from a portion of the cadet physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury that is chronic or permanent in nature, as certified by a physician. Cadets are still required to complete and pass the CPFT events from which they are not restricted.
e. Category IV – Indefinitely Restricted. Cadets assigned to Category IV are indefinitely or permanently restricted from participation in the entire physical fitness program due to a medical condition or injury, as certified by a physician. Cadets in this category are exempt from all CPFT requirements indefinitely.

If obesity is/can be a temporary condition.....for CAT II it can be chronic or permanent.....ergo.....you can get put into CAT III or IV and that's that.
Which is completely against the sprit of the regulation and the aims of the program but we are stuck with it.

[Ron1319]

My sister who is a doctor and our medical officer can counter a letter from another doctor.  Still, a doctor doesn't have authority to put a cadet into category III or category IV.  They can say what the problem is and we can determine if it meets the requirements.  I read that obesity is temporary and Cat III and IV are not.

I don't know of any who have dropped out because of PT.  We get most of the ones who show up to join.  We have a lot of them, we don't need every one.  We have a Flight Training Officer (senior) assigned to each flight, an extensive Great Start program, and we now have two C/LtC's taking their Spaatz exams this weekend, so we have some Phase IV leadership. 

I say recruit.  Do good great start.  Let peer pressure motivate them.

[kd8gua]

Except for the cadet who does 1 pushup for the curry, and improves 1 per achievement up to the armstrong
and then goes and gets the cat 4 waiver because he can't get from 8 to 18 in 1 achievement and NOW never does PT again.

I can't name one cadet who has quit my unit because they couldn't PT.
I can name at least a half dozen (lately) who came in and failed their first try, and came back the next month and passed.
I can name cadets who never got out and exercised at home until they joined CAP, and then once they got in, they started (to the shock and awe of their parents)

I have never known a cadet who quit after the mitchell because of PT.
Not one.
Because of the SDA?  And the lack of direction?  And life distractions?  Sure.  But not PT...
Actually *my* Mitchell cadets were just Chiefs a minute ago, and not only were they rocking their own personal PT tests (at the same standards required for achievements 7, 8, and the Mitchell), they were LEADING the squadron in PT, as the first sergeant.

I am a former cadet who quit because of PT stagnation.

I have plenty of cadets who have problems with PT at my unit. I even have cadet officers who spent several months waiting on a promotion because of PT.

I love the idea of making the Mitchell the make-or-break for PT. CAP is a wonderful activity for young people, and this idea that just because someone can't do PT they are excluded is elitist and shocking! The Cadet Program I know tries to help those who need it the most! If I had a cadet helping me with PT, maybe I'd have gotten my Mitchell. But I was really just left to my own devices, and so without any prior PT experience (I don't play sports) I had no idea where to begin. I have cadets inmy unit who go running together after school to help improve their scores. But sadly too many cadets don't pass PT each month, and it kills their interest in the program.

To me, while we strive to make every cadet into a Spaatzen and be an illustrious leader, some cadets just don't want that. Maybe they like the ES program. While we should be motivating cadets to promote and have healthy lifestyles, it shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. That cadet we 2B'd for lack of progression may have been an awesome Ground Team Member or a Mission Radio Operator. But we seem to forget the other aspects of our own program and focus solely on only certain things - things that make or break that cadet's experience in CAP and shape their opinion for life.