PT standards lowering

[arajca]

To me, while we strive to make every cadet into a Spaatzen and be an illustrious leader, some cadets just don't want that. Maybe they like the ES program. While we should be motivating cadets to promote and have healthy lifestyles, it shouldn't be the be-all-end-all. That cadet we 2B'd for lack of progression may have been an awesome Ground Team Member or a Mission Radio Operator. But we seem to forget the other aspects of our own program and focus solely on only certain things - things that make or break that cadet's experience in CAP and shape their opinion for life.

This attitude shows a disdain for the cadet program. Cadets by definition are in the cadet program first. Everything else - ES, Drill Team, Honor Guard, etc - is extra-curricular. Compare it to school. A student needs to meet the academic requirements before they can be on the football team or baseball team or chess team. If they are held back, they don't make the teams. (As a rule.) In CAP, if a cadet does not progress in the cadet program, they can't do ES, etc.

Yes, I have told cadets this. Yes, I have told cadet staff they set the example and need to promote regularly or they will be former staff. I also tell seniors they need to promote regularly to set an example for the cadets.

[SamFranklin]

You can say the standards are "low" or "high" -- it's relative. Back in the day, cadets were required simply to amass X points by participating in aerobic / fitness activities of their choosing. If you were out there working hard, doing some form of PT, that's what CAP wanted to see and so CAP gave you credit for that effort. A high level of fitness would follow from your good PT habits.

Then along comes the 1-mile run standard. Maybe a 1.5-mile run standard in there too, my memory is fuzzy; suffice to say the standard was limited to a run.

Where we are now, in 2012, is much, much, much more demanding of cadets in regards to fitness. What do they do now? Push ups, sit ups, some kind of stretching thing, and a run. Yeah, they can bomb one of the events, but still the bar is a lot higher today than it was in the 70s, 80s, or early 90s. It's also higher academically, but that's another story.

So reverting to a more attainable standard, as Patrick Harris suggests, makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm not worried that he would be (gasp!) "lowering" the standard because we've raised it so much already. We ought to want the right standards for cadets today.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.

[lordmonar]

I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.

And we view this as a good thing?  Not that 2bing them is a good thing either.....but rank stagnation is and indicator that something is wrong.

[coudano]

I have YET to see or hear of a cadet being 2Bd for lack of "2 Achievements per year". Sure it gets mentioned to motivate them to get into gear, but I've seen plenty of cadets who would sit at a grade for 1+ years without ANY progress.

I actually enforce this rule, and I haven't had to do it yet.
I've written cadets up for it, and gone so far as a demotion over it.
But I haven't terminated anyone for it yet.

The only cadets i've lost who haven't promoted at an acceptable rate, have also quit the program (or turned senior member).  None of those people, by the way, were failing to promote because of PT.


Look, I have to pass a PT test periodically.
I would like to get 100 or very very close to it.
I don't.
I just pass.
And when I look at the score that I just got, I think back to all of those times that I should have and could have worked out, and didn't.  And that's reality.
If I had put in the time and effort, i'd have that 100.  Its really not THAT hard to do...   I know a lot of people who do it, and they are not olympic athletes.  They simply put in the work up front.

We aren't asking our cadets to max out every category.
We are asking them to make minimums.
Minimums, for crying out loud.

We are trying to teach life long habits of fitness (yes, go running as a group after school)
But there is a second life lesson embedded here...   If you don't put in the work up front, then you don't get the reward.

It is not too much to ask, in a military style program.

[ZombieButter]

Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.

[Ron1319]

Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.

How frequently do you do PT testing?  Training?  It sounds to me like you need to switch to PT every meeting or every other meeting in a fun, motivated, productive way.

[lordmonar]

Two months ago when we did our squadron PT testing, out of around 20+ cadets, I was the ONLY one that passed. We made some changes to motivate cadets to exercise more that should help raise our scores.

How frequently do you do PT testing?  Training?  It sounds to me like you need to switch to PT every meeting or every other meeting in a fun, motivated, productive way.

If you do that...where do you have time for AE, ES, CD, and leadership?

My point has been we just don't have enough contact hours to get everthing done and still do a meaningful PT program.

[Ron1319]

In the other hour of the meeting not taken up by opening and closing stuff.

[Eclipse]

In the other hour of the meeting not taken up by opening and closing stuff.

That and a tight schedule where people are on time and move with a purpose. I've been to a lot of meetings where the first 30 minutes
is "wander in time", followed by 15-20 minutes where people are bumping into each other trying to get into formation, another 30 minutes
of a rambling safety briefing, and before you know it it's time for closing formation.

I also agree we have far too little contact time, and this, like ES or other things some people view as optional could / should be done on
an alternate night or the weekend.

[Ron1319]

Then disband the unit.  Our cadets arrive 10-15 minutes early.  Staff 1/2 hour early.  Our formation starts exactly on time every week and we try to end on time.  Sometimes if we have a lot of promotions we go over by 5 minutes but the parents are understanding about that.  If they burn half the meeting, no wonder the cadets don't do well on PT.  Nobody cares, apparently.

[lordmonar]

At our meeting we meet for 2:30 hours.

Week 1...we got formation, character development, leadership
Week 2...formation, safety, aerospace, testing.
Week 3....PT
Week 4....Formation, Leadership, ES, Promotions/Awards.

In the back ground we have the cadet staff planning the meetings, promotion boards, membership boards, uniform issue, admin paper work.

Also we have/are trying to get a stong senior porgram going with PD, ES and Specialty Track Development.

We simply can't do PT every week....or even twice a month.
We can't devote a lot of "other nights/days" to the optional items as we have a pretty strong program with lots of stuff going on.
Color Guard, ES, SAREX, PD courses, air show support, firearms training, AEX, model Rocketry, etc. 

Like I said....I do beleive that PT and good physical fitness is important.....just not as important as all the other stuff we have and should be doing.
Everyone should be doing personal PT 3 times a week for 30-40 minutes at a time.....but let's be realistic.....we ask our cadets to do a lot of stuff for CAP.....get hair cuts, prep their uniforms, study and take their tests, do their SDA's, work out, prepare to teach their classes, keep good grades in school......and they often have lives outside of CAP and School that eats up their time as well...church, sports, music, et al......

I have been doing CP for near 10 years now....and the one thing I see holding back most cadets is PT.  I am not saying we should throw it out the door....but just modify the standards and expectations.

[Ron1319]

Simple to make the time. 

1) Do promotions and awards during closing at the end of each meeting.
2) Don't dedicate the entire week 3 meeting to PT.  Our PFT takes about an hour for about 50 cadets in attendance.  You should have another hour to move a block into that block. 
3) Don't dedicate two blocks to "leadership"

Keeping everything in your schedule and assuming opening and closing each meeting at 15 minutes/each, and adding a few important things.  Note I am suggesting that you offer testing twice a month concurrently with some focused leadership or aerospace class/tutoring or activity.

Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 30 min), break (5 min) aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), extra hour for activity or additional important thing.
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)

That could be shuffled to this:

Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 40 min), break (5 min), PT (45 min)
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)

I hope you actually use this.

[lordmonar]

Well...that's the rub....CAP CP is a leadership program first and foremost.......so I have a problem with giving up LEADERSHIP time for PT.

[NC Hokie]

Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 30 min), break (5 min) aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), extra hour for activity or additional important thing.
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)

That could be shuffled to this:

Week 1 - CD (45 min), flight time (30 min), PT (45 min)
Week 2 - safety (30 min), flight time (inspection/drill 40 min), break (5 min), PT (45 min)
Week 3 - PT (1 hour), aerospace/testing (55 min).
Week 4 - Leadership/testing (55 min), break (5 min), ES (1 hr)

FYI, neither of those schedules meets the minimum requirement for Aerospace (1.5) or Character (1) contact hours called for in CAPR 52-16.

[a2capt]

We manage to have all of it and then some in the 2.5 hours a week we meet. With 118 on the roster, and about 90-100 present each night on average, between cadets and seniors. Then Color Guard, Cyber Patriot, ES, AE, and the others break out groups meet on alternate days/nights as well. There's PT, AE, Leadership, CD, and more. Like clockwork, every 4 weeks.

[Ron1319]

I find it sad that your personal bias against PT is causing the problems that you report in your unit.  Obviously it could be done if you cared enough to do it, saw it as a priority, and had the leadership ability to implement a solution.  It's no the program that should bend to your bias, it's you who should look deep inside yourself and find a solution.  I'm not suggesting a schedule change be permanent, and the 52-16 is clear that you can make exceptions.  With that I am bowing out of this conversation as it has become quite circular.

I feel that if you do not understand that all of CAP is a leadership experience for the cadets, that their fitness and ability to meet the PT requirements to complete the program is paramount.  They could certainly learn more from accomplishing those goals than they could sitting in a leadership class or with flight commanders figuring out how to target flight time to their needs, then we really have nothing more to discuss.

[lordmonar]

Welll....like I said....I would rather spend more time doing leadership execises then just doing PT.....YMMV.

I disagree that PT is "paramount"......I think you need to look at 52-16 and see what is supposed to be paramount in the cadet program....and with that I am out...becuase I'm getting angry.

[coudano]

Welll....like I said....I would rather spend more time doing leadership execises then just doing PT.....YMMV.

I disagree that PT is "paramount"......I think you need to look at 52-16 and see what is supposed to be paramount in the cadet program....and with that I am out...becuase I'm getting angry.

And just to continue the cirularity,
PT *IS* leadership exercise.
or you're doing it wrong.

[RogueLeader]

I might have been known to avoid doing PT in my Army unit, But I always did PT with my cadets.  To motivate them, and show that I never asked them to do something I wouldn't.