First Aid Card

[SARDOC]

My Original Question is...Is there a real requirement for a GTM to Possess a certification card?  Thanks

The answer is: It depends. I can't speak for your wing but my wing does require a card to be issued to meet the requirement. I think that's a good requirement because it ensures everyone is trained to approximately the same standard.

In an Ideal situation, I agree...I would love for everyone to get the Book/Card but we have a few cadets who participate in the program who don't come from a financially stable situation.  We have one who delivers newspapers before school and all his money goes to support his CAP activities as well as other school activities.  I admire the hardwork and dedication these kids put in to our program and if I can save them a few bucks while meeting the requirements...I'm just doing my due diligence.  I received authorization from the Wing ES officer to host the Class and I can either submit cards or a class roster for entry into OPSQUALS.

Also Full disclosure...I hate taking money, issuing receipts and accounting for all that money...It's a hassle I can live without.  I'm looking at hosting 30 people in three separate classes to maintain student/instructor ratios...and it becomes problematic.  I was just trying to reconcile my understanding of the Regs vs. my understanding of the Task Guide .


I thank everyone for their input it is appreciated

[Eclipse]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

[SARDOC]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

If you provide a reference to why it wouldn't meet my wing's standards I'd appreciate it.

Granted they will not be certified by the certifying agency I use...But I don't see any documentation In CAP regulations or in my wing's Operating Instructions that require certification at all.   That might be true in your wing but in communications with my wing ES officer it does not appear to be an established requirement in my wing.  The Only Reference I find is in the Field Team Task Guide saying that in addition to their CAP id card, 101 card they must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Which brings me back to my original question...which has precedent the CAP Regulations (which doesn't require certification or a card) or the Task guide (which does require a card)?

[RADIOMAN015]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

The American Heart Association First Aid Course is all done by multi media presentation  and a few paper handouts (which we copied on the unit's copy machine) and can be done for much less cost than the American Red Cross Course. :clap:

Locally I called the ARC last year to the course coordinator and left a message about the possibility of getting a CAP specific class and the possibility of getting a non profit discount.  Never heard back from him .  ARC can take a big leap into the pond as far as I'm concerned with this first aid training program    As far as CAP doing any joint operations with them, personally I'd be very careful and locally it's likely I wouldn't participate.

I think we have an obligation to the membership (especially cadets) to try to get requirements completed at the least amount of cost to the individual or unit.

RM       

[jimmydeanno]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then? 

[SARDOC]

must have a First Aid Card (no requirement for it to be current) 

Really...what exactly would be the point, then?

I'm not sure...which goes to the whole point that the regulation doesn't require us to be certified to begin with.

[Spaceman3750]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

The American Heart Association First Aid Course is all done by multi media presentation  and a few paper handouts (which we copied on the unit's copy machine) and can be done for much less cost than the American Red Cross Course. :clap:

Locally I called the ARC last year to the course coordinator and left a message about the possibility of getting a CAP specific class and the possibility of getting a non profit discount.  Never heard back from him .  ARC can take a big leap into the pond as far as I'm concerned with this first aid training program    As far as CAP doing any joint operations with them, personally I'd be very careful and locally it's likely I wouldn't participate.

I think we have an obligation to the membership (especially cadets) to try to get requirements completed at the least amount of cost to the individual or unit.

RM     

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

[Eclipse]

They will attend the same class, perform the same practicals just won't get the card

Then they won't be certified, by your certification body's standards or your wings.

If they seriously can't come up with $13 for a First Aid book, then CAP may not be a good choice for them, or at least not ES.

If you provide a reference to why it wouldn't meet my wing's standards I'd appreciate it.

Granted they will not be certified by the certifying agency I use...

You answered your own question - absent the standing of the certifying body, you might as well have the Fry Guy at McDonald's teach the class.

You're reaching for the 6th grade "you can't make me argument".

[HGjunkie]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

[Eclipse]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

I agree - most classes I've had are 4 hours for "Community Level" First Aid, and another 4 (at least) for the CPR/AED, and even that feels rushed.  I can't imagine teaching novices how to do and teach the skills, not to mention the administrative tasks related to being an instructor, in an 8 hour class and having anything but poor results.

In these parts we have an AIH instructor who generally teaches our member for cost, which is $10 for the book.  You generally can't get a decent class at a hospital or similar for less that $35 to $50.

SARDOC, if you're providing compliant instruction for $13.50, they should thank you and you should stop worrying about it.

[Spaceman3750]

Around here AHA courses and instructors are much lower quality than ARC. I attribute that in part to the fact that the AHA instructor course is 8 hours and ARCs is 24 hours.

The ARC branch near where I live teaches combination 1st Aid/CPR/AED classes that last longer than 8 hours. Instructors should have more training than 8 hours.

You're right, they do. ARC Basic FA/CPR/AED instructor training is 24 hours (there's several components). To teach wilderness FA (a 16 hour course) we have to complete bridge training (right now it's an online thing but it is going to be changing in the next couple of months to a 4-6 hour classroom course).

[HGjunkie]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

[Spaceman3750]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

Even $20 is cheap. Most ARC chapters I've seen charge $40 for either First Aid or CPR/AED, mine will cut you a deal and you can get both for $50.

[SARDOC]

Also, $13.50 is relatively cheap. I had to do my training for 1st aid and CPR/AED classes for $20 apiece (2 separate classes), and that is a huge discount down here. And I agree with Eclipse, I feel the classes were rushed to the point where the instructor had to trim out material we would have otherwise covered.

I agree $13.50 is relatively cheap especially when it includes the brand new book.  I still intend on covering all of the material using the established syllabus.  But the regulations don't require the Certification so Free is even Cheaper than $13.50. 

[Eclipse]

I still intend on covering all of the material using the established syllabus.  But the regulations don't require the Certification so Free is even Cheaper than $13.50.

You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better, but that won't make it true.

At a minimum you must comply with whatever your Wing CC accepts as certification, because ultimately it'll be his designate
that has to approve the rating(s).

Don't waste your member's time and good feeling just to try and make a point that won't stand up anyway.

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.  Yo keep trying to make the point about
victims not wanting to see the card before they are helped, which is irrelevant, documentation of qualifications is supposed to be displayed
at mission check in and verified.  The fact that the cards may be entered into eServices to ease that process doesn't change the requirement
to have them, and an expired card, like an expired driver's license, is useless.

One of the reasons the cards are required is to insure that skills are regularly refreshed.

[Spaceman3750]

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.

You would really spend time checking first aid cards? If they're GTM3 we assume they've completed the training...

That said - I need to put my cards into my ID packet, I just keep forgetting.

[Eclipse]

Were I the GBD and they showed up to a mission without a current FA card, they would be sent home.

You would really spend time checking first aid cards? If they're GTM3 we assume they've completed the training...

Yes, I check when I am a GTL, and expect them to be checked when I am GBD.
Being a GTM3 today, doesn't mean your certifications didn't expire, it only means they were valid at the time of the sign-off.
Whether it is First Aid, Radio card, CAP DL, or even basic membership, there are certain reasonable bare-minimum expectations
we have to meet if we want to play.  It is a big part of what differentiates us from ES vigilantes, and in turn a big part of our value
to our customers - we proved professionalized personnel, trained to a standard, and vetted for their ability to perform.

What's being missed here as well, or ignored, is the protection against liability.  In order to be protected you have to be
fully-compliant, miss a thing here or there and you're opening yourself up unnecessarily to being disavowed by the corporation.

[SARDOC]

CAPR 60-3 states

When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at  http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-02,
Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational Settings.

I think when someone wrote this regulation they were completely phoning it in.  The Referenced standards contain many loopholes and exemptions.  These documents are specifically designed to be so flexible so that they are adopted by certifying agencies who are attempting to meet OSHA standards who states that First Aid training should be tailored to meet the most common hazard found in an employers worksite.  OSHA does not require certification but does mandate training.  OSHA and the referenced standards don't require certification because of the cost of maintaining those certifications.

The only real reference to certification in the NGFATOS is the below quote.

The purpose of occupationally regulated first aid training for laypersons should be to educate, not
to test or certify competence

It does say that a card "SHOULD" be issued but that the minimum is that the training should be documented.  The referenced documents themselves even say they are not regulatory but consensus documents.  What gives them the force of regulation that impacts Civil Air Patrol is their adoption by CAPR 60-3 which only requires knowledge and practical skills training. 

Eclipse, as far as your Liability concerns CAPR 60-3 States "CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any
care provided is at the members own risk."  That statement in itself shifts liability away from the Corporation and onto the individual member which is why the quote above specifically states that members are not considered employees when conducting operations...specifically because as a citizen not in the course of their employment is covered by the Good Samaritan Law in most states...So I still don't see where your liability argument holds water.

I understand that as a GTL you conduct a gear check and that if a member poses a risk because they are unprepared for the environment that they would be denied.  I don't think that not having a First Aid card should diminish your team's capability and as far as "sending them Home" I think that exceeds your authority as a GTL.  You should at a minimum consult the GBD asking the member be reassigned to another position in the mission or if there is no other choice consult the Incident Commander because that is the only level where a responder should be excused in the ICS system.

[SARDOC]

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, as far as your Liability concerns CAPR 60-3 States "CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage, and any care provided is at the members own risk."  That statement in itself shifts liability away from the Corporation and onto the individual member which is why the quote above specifically states that members are not considered employees when conducting operations...specifically because as a citizen not in the course of their employment is covered by the Good Samaritan Law in most states...So I still don't see where your liability argument holds water.

This is not about the medical ability or training, per se, it is about being qualified to be there at all, and the SQTR's say you have to be trained and current in basic first aid.  The way CAP substantiates that is through outside organizations who provide the training and accept the risk.

Liability?  You think an incorrectly treated person isn't going to sue CAP and the organization that provided the training?  Properly credentialed and
trained, CAP, Inc., can potentially remove itself from a lawsuit on the grounds that you state - we don't provide medical training, but instead send our
people to "x", so it's "X's" fault if the band-aids were put on upside down, etc.

If we provide in-house, non-certified training, it's all on CAP, Inc.

I understand that as a GTL you conduct a gear check and that if a member poses a risk because they are unprepared for the environment that they would be denied.  I don't think that not having a First Aid card should diminish your team's capability and as far as "sending them Home" I think that exceeds your authority as a GTL.  You should at a minimum consult the GBD asking the member be reassigned to another position in the mission or if there is no other choice consult the Incident Commander because that is the only level where a responder should be excused in the ICS system.

Obviously if they can be utilized elsewhere, so be it, they just aren't going to need their 24 pack that day.

We do not require them to take a specific organization's courses or get specific certificates - there really are a variety of options across the country. Our intention is for personnel to meet and document completion of some basic standards.

Found on CAP Knowledgebase from statement from JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr. Deputy Director, Operations

Nothing about requiring certification...Hmm

You're reading that with a filter to skew it to your argument.

CAP, Inc., does not endorse a specific organization, there are a number you can choose, but you have to choose one.  The ultimate decision is not
yours or even John's, it is up to your Wing CC (and by delegation, likely the Wing's ESO or Ops Dir) to decide if they will accept the training
provided.  Rare is the wing which will allow non-certified training, and non-existent is a wing that won't accept it.

Bottom line, it's their call, and you will likely be wasting your member's time to save a few bucks when the ratings are denied.

And seriously, to what end?  $13.00?  Just buy the books, give them cards and move on. Your member's time worth a lot more than $13.00, and whatever goodwill you think yo are going to engender by saving them the cost of a few cups of coffee is going to go right out the window when they
find out they have to retake the First Aid class to get those badges.