Pesidential Declared Disasters

[ammotrucker]

Hmm, by that logic if the President never specifically mentions it himself, then the FEMA disasters wouldn't count either.  That would disqualify most of them.

Declaring something can be in writing on orally.  By, verture of the President signing the Stafford Act it justifies the Presidents approval.  Just as any other instrument that the Federal government has. 

[RiverAux]

Declaring something can be in writing on orally.

Citation please that this statement is true as regards CAP regulations and/or Presidentially declared disasters. 

As you are the one looking to prove that a loophole exists the burden of proof is on you here. 

[ol'fido]

Can I take this question in the other direction? What is the point of putting a "V" device on a DR ribbon? If participating in Presidentially declared disasters rates a "V" which in the military means that the otherwise non-combat award was awarded for for "Valor" making it a combat award, why do we cut it off at 1990? CAP has been responding to natural disasters since its founding. If we award the DR-V ribbon for participating in a "Presidential" disaster does that make a plain old DR for local or state declared emergencies second class?

I know that CAP's only reward to its members is often the bling, but putting a device on our ribbons that is normally awarded for combat actions seems somewhat cheesy.

[Thom]

Can I take this question in the other direction? What is the point of putting a "V" device on a DR ribbon? If participating in Presidentially declared disasters rates a "V" which in the military means that the otherwise non-combat award was awarded for for "Valor" making it a combat award, why do we cut it off at 1990? CAP has been responding to natural disasters since its founding. If we award the DR-V ribbon for participating in a "Presidential" disaster does that make a plain old DR for local or state declared emergencies second class?

I know that CAP's only reward to its members is often the bling, but putting a device on our ribbons that is normally awarded for combat actions seems somewhat cheesy.

That question has been asked and answered before. As I recall, the intent when the "V" version of the award was adopted was not that the V stood for Valor, but that it was a readily available attachment that would not conflict with the regular bronze and silver clasps already used to denote multiple awards. Much like the oddball Gold Star on the Command Service Ribon, used for almost nothing else in CAP, it is there because it was convenient.

To the OP's question: The term "Presidential Declared Disaster (Area)" has a special meaning, it is used in legal circles, and it was well understood to be a specific kind of disaster, meeting very specific requirements, starting with the Stafford Act. I'm sorry the person who wrote the CAP Regulation didn't capitalize it, but in fact it is often used in both the Capitalized and Non-Capitalized forms, all meaning the same thing: A Disaster which the President declared to be deserving of special assistance terms under the Stafford Act and some followup acts.

Here in Hurricane country we have been familiar with the term, and it's usage EXCLUSIVELY applying to Stafford Act-applied disasters for many years.

I'm not sure it quite fits the requirements for a 'term of art' but it is very much in that category. Much like the word Engineer has a very clear meaning in most States, despite the proliferation of Sanitation Engineers.

I'm sorry the Deepwater Horizon/Macondo disaster didn't get the Stafford Act declaration so the CAP members who gave thousands and thousands of hours would get the DR w/V ribbon, but I have to assume that at some point the Region or the National CC will put forward some sort of recognition for all those who helped.

Thank you for your efforts.


Thom

[JeffDG]

My question is, if the regulation is intended to only apply to Stafford Act declarations, why doesn't it say so?

Just because the Stafford Act is the most common legislative authority under which disasters are declared does not make it the only one.

[Thom]

My question is, if the regulation is intended to only apply to Stafford Act declarations, why doesn't it say so?

Just because the Stafford Act is the most common legislative authority under which disasters are declared does not make it the only one.

Actually, unless you can find some evidence otherwise, the term "Presidential Declared Disaster (Area)" really does specifically mean, declared under the conditions of the Stafford Act or its follow-on Acts. And, yes, it is used both Capitalized and uncapitalized, it doesn't appear to have any legal bearing, just a matter of style.

When you see stuff from the IRS about "Special Deductions if you lived in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area last year", they mean one that was declared using the Stafford Act (et al, it's actually a family of related Acts, but everyone commonly just calls it Stafford Act, so I'm going to stop adding this verbiage...)

Same for when Fannie Mae or HUD says there are special rules allowing you to skip or reduce payments if you lived in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area, they mean a Stafford Act disaster.

I'm sorry they picked such an otherwise common term, they probably should have called them "Presidential Proclaimed Disasters of National Significance under the Auspices of the Stafford Act" or something similarly bloviated. Unfortunately, they picked a simple collection of words, which I will readily admit, had an entirely different meaning BEFORE the Stafford Act. After the Stafford Act, the phrase took on a very special meaning.

Much like the term Auxiliary has a different meaning to the Military than to most other lines of work, sometimes mere ordinary words get charged with a particular meaning for particular folks.

Now, if you want the CAP DR w/V ribbon to apply to all disasters where the President says something about how bad it is, send a proposal up the chain of command and the National Board can change it at the next meeting.


Thom

[ammotrucker]

Actually, unless you can find some evidence otherwise, the term "Presidential Declared Disaster (Area)" really does specifically mean, declared under the conditions of the Stafford Act or its follow-on Acts. And, yes, it is used both Capitalized and uncapitalized, it doesn't appear to have any legal bearing, just a matter of style.

When you see stuff from the IRS about "Special Deductions if you lived in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area last year", they mean one that was declared using the Stafford Act (et al, it's actually a family of related Acts, but everyone commonly just calls it Stafford Act, so I'm going to stop adding this verbiage...)

Same for when Fannie Mae or HUD says there are special rules allowing you to skip or reduce payments if you lived in a Presidential Declared Disaster Area, they mean a Stafford Act disaster.

I'm sorry they picked such an otherwise common term, they probably should have called them "Presidential Proclaimed Disasters of National Significance under the Auspices of the Stafford Act" or something similarly bloviated. Unfortunately, they picked a simple collection of words, which I will readily admit, had an entirely different meaning BEFORE the Stafford Act. After the Stafford Act, the phrase took on a very special meaning.

Much like the term Auxiliary has a different meaning to the Military than to most other lines of work, sometimes mere ordinary words get charged with a particular meaning for particular folks.

Now, if you want the CAP DR w/V ribbon to apply to all disasters where the President says something about how bad it is, send a proposal up the chain of command and the National Board can change it at the next meeting.


Thom

Yet even the Stafford Act understands that there are other Laws that may apply -
"Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, PL 100-707, signed into law November 23, 1988; amended the Disaster Relief Act of 1974, PL 93-288. This Act constitutes the statutory authority for most Federal disaster response activities especially as they pertain to FEMA and FEMA programs." 
I think that it is wrong that to place only a device or ribbons soley on a FEMA based acheivement.

It has been place into the pipeline to National for consideration.

[ammotrucker]

I'm sorry they picked such an otherwise common term, they probably should have called them "Presidential Proclaimed Disasters of National Significance under the Auspices of the Stafford Act" or something similarly bloviated. Unfortunately, they picked a simple collection of words, which I will readily admit, had an entirely different meaning BEFORE the Stafford Act. After the Stafford Act, the phrase took on a very special meaning.



Thom

If you stated it that way there would still be confusion due to the fact that even though FEMA was involved it was a Spill or Disaster of National Significance

[RRLE]

The definitions are in 42 USC 5122. Title 42 is the Disaster Relief title of the US Code (USC). Section 5122 is the definitions section. There are 2 key definitions from 42 USC 5122.                       

(1) Emergency. - "Emergency" means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States.

(2) Major disaster. - "Major disaster" means any natural catastrophe (including any hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, winddriven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm, or drought), or, regardless of cause, any fire, flood, or explosion, in any part of the United States, which in the determination of the President causes damage of sufficient severity and magnitude to warrant major disaster assistance under this chapter to supplement the efforts and available resources of States, local governments, and disaster relief organizations in alleviating the damage, loss, hardship, or suffering caused thereby.

The oil spill was not natural, nor was it a fire, explosion or flood so it was not a major disaster according to the USC. It does appear to fit the definition of an emergency but that does not meet the CAP criteria for the ribbon.

Code of Federal Regula tons (CFR) 13 CFR 300.3

Presidentially-Declared Disaster means a major disaster or emergency declared under the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, as amended (42 U.S.C. 5121 et seq.).

So a Presidentially-Declared Disaster has to be a major disaster, which the spill was not, and it must involve a declaration under the Stafford act, which the spill did not have.

So, returning to the original 3 questions:

1. I want to know what you all think a Presidentially declared disaster is?

A major disaster with an invocation of the Stafford Act.

2. What makes a Presidentially declared disaster?

A major disaster with an invocation of the Stafford Act.

3. Do you think that Deepwater Oil Spill qualifies if Yes qualify if NO why not?

No, it does not met the legal defintion.

[arajca]

Game. Set. Match.

[a2capt]

The reg is what the reg is. Don't like it? Change it.

Swaying the public opinion of a bunch of forum posters on the internet isn't going to change the reg, or change the meaning of it, or any other iteration thereof.

Just like the duo who volunteered in Louisiana (as private citizens) to work during the Columbia accident, and then came to CAWG and joined units, and pinned on the Unit Citation award for the Columbia Mission. .. "well, we worked.. " yeah, but you didn't work during your membership of a Wing that was awarded it, under the direction of that command that was awarded it. So, you should not have it on.

[RiverAux]

The oil spill was the result of an explosion so could have been considered a major disaster using the definition from the US code that was supplied. 

[Eclipse]

Actually, I would say it was a major disaster, it just wasn't a major natural disaster, thus, plenty of federal help, but a PDDA would have been inappropriate.

[JeffDG]

Actually, I would say it was a major disaster, it just wasn't a major natural disaster, thus, plenty of federal help, but a PDDA would have been inappropriate.

A natural disaster is one reason for a declaration:
(2) Major disaster. - "Major disaster" means any natural catastrophe (including any hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, winddriven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm, or drought), or, regardless of cause, any fire, flood, or explosion,

[nesagsar]

It took a while for DNA and blood evidence to be admissible in court, if you want the definition of a presidentially declared disaster to change just lobby for it. I would say that Deepwater Horizon would be good ammunition in that battle.

[Al Sayre]

FWIW, this was discussed at the SER Ops Conference at Tyndall.  HQ (including CAP-USAF) is looking at a change to allow the DR w/ V for DWH.  Be patient, these things take time, especially since every other group that had an "undeclared" disaster will want in on the deal, and they have to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

[Eclipse]

^ I'd be in favor of that - no one is saying the effort isn't worth recognizing, but like many things, the regs is the regs.

Why not dump the "V", and go with a "P" for PDDA's, and an "M" for anything else NHQ deems as "Major" - this still requires
national attention to the award of the ribbon (whether POTUS or HEADCAP).

[starshippe]

. . well, i heard that there just may be a special ribbon being designed for dwh.
. . i believe that the original bronze v for the pdda was changed to a silver v because the bronze v has always signified valor on military ribbons. in any event, for us old timers with other pddas in the last 20 years, if u have more than one, the v stays on the left as viewed from in front, and not the center.
. . my take on the answer to the original question is "no", dwh does not qualify for a pdda.

bill wallace, maj., cap
ic, dwh 

[RiverAux]

^ I'd be in favor of that - no one is saying the effort isn't worth recognizing, but like many things, the regs is the regs.

Why not dump the "V", and go with a "P" for PDDA's, and an "M" for anything else NHQ deems as "Major" - this still requires
national attention to the award of the ribbon (whether POTUS or HEADCAP).

Given that it doesn't take much of a disaster to get a presidential declaration I see no reason to have separate awards to recognize participation in federal-level disasters.  Heck, if a tree falls across a highway it seems to get a presidential declaration recently. 

[lordmonar]

I would suggest that we ditch the DR ribbon as it is now (just for getting the training and working on exercises) and just award the DR ribbon for actual work on actual disasters whether they are Presdentally declared or not. 

Just let NHQ make the call on how big the "disaster" has to be to warrent the ribbon.