On the state of cadet promotions

[Eclipse]

This is old road, but I doubt it is news to anyone here that the CAC is pretty dysfunctional and lacking any real mission or direction.

I accept your admission that your CAC is "pretty dysfunctional and lacks any real mission or direction."

Sorry, Ned, this is about the CAC, not my wing's.  It has been floundering for most of recent memory.
Whether you want to point to individual personalities involved, or the history and application as a whole, things have been less then optimal for a long time.

This is not a local problem, or one that can be fixed through the brute force efforts of a few people trying to do things
right.  Been there, done that.

[Ned]

This is not a local problem, or one that can be fixed through the brute force efforts of a few people trying to do things
right.  Been there, done that.

Negative, Ghostrider.

Your group CAC is either doing a good job or not.

By definition that is indeed a local problem.  And one that you are personally accountable for, sir.  And part of what you promised to do when you accepted command.

You can have a highly successful group CAC even if the Wing CAC has not met for 60 years.

And it bears repeating that this is not an optional part of the program.  You or I may disagree with the regs, but we give our best efforts to comply.  And are accountable if we willfully fail to obey them.

Bob, are you really telling us it is OK to blow off regulations you personally don't believe in?

No wonder your CAC is not thriving.

The good news is you are not the Lone Ranger here - you have a Group Cadet Programs Officer to help.  And you should be insisting that your squadron commanders support the CAC, and hold them accountable if they do not.

Members and staffers normally have a pretty good idea of what is important to the boss.  If you don't care about following the regulations and insisting on a viable, healthy CAC, why should they care?

[Eclipse]

Bob, are you really telling us it is OK to blow off regulations you personally don't believe in?

Who said I was blowing anything off?

However.

I would like you to please cite where a CAC is required below wing, as you have now made the assertion 3 times or more that this is somehow a compliance issue.  Further, you and I both know that there are any number of wings that have a CAC that begins and ends with a PA.

I'll leave the comments about holding Squadron Commanders responsible on the table.  We all know how far that goes.

Also, and more to the point, on at least one occasion I have asked here and on CS for viable missions and direction for a strong CAC.  The majority of the answers are just quotes from the pamphlets, interspersed with a few people who had examples that were somewhat of a stretch.

If the CAC is as objectively important and vital as you are asserting, I'd be happy to entertain two or three real-world things that a CAC should be legitimately involved in.  Recruiting and retention are not #1 & 2, despite the fact that
this is generally #1 &#2 on every annual CAC agenda I have ever seen.

[davidsinn]

Around these parts for encampment it's July, August or thanks to Eclipse's hard work, April. Until you can ship them off to encampment you haven't really hooked them yet so you have to time your drives to put them at encampment when they are still new but actually ready to go.

Are you implementing Great Start?
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_009_7603F5B468886.pdf

I have tried. It failed. It's a very good program and I would love to have it working but we are having a very hard time getting kids in the door. My problem that caused the failure is I got a group of cadets in at one time and no sierra, but every last one of them had a mental issue. That caused massive issues with some pre-existing cadets driving one off and now I'm down to just two cadets. I will restart my efforts after the new year when the holidays stop jacking with my schedule.

[coudano]

Ned, i've been watching various people try to force feed CAC at the wing and group level for 20 years now.
And I haven't seen it work yet (including when I was *IN* it).

CAC, from the senior member perspective (and that's where the requirement lies which is a large part of the problem), is a lot of effort and strife for pretty low payoff, due to a few fatal flaws that have yet to be addressed.  From the cadet perspective it is something that they do because senior members twist their arms into doing it.  This is one of the fatal flaws of CAC... it is a requirement of the Cadet Program...  but it's not a requirement of the CADETS.  A few cadets who are model government nerds (like I was, when I was in it) will do it, whether it produces or not, because that's their "thing".  The CAC requirement forces your wing CP staff to spend time, energy, and limited availability enthusiasm and trust of the cadets, to put something on, because "it's required", that "sucks".  Asking cadets to push a boulder up a mountain, and like sysiphus, when it falls down to the bottom (and it always does) to push it up again, is a recipe for bad attitudes, and boycotting of the program.

The result is that I comply with the requirement.  I appoint a rep and an alternate.  And I keep them informed of upcoming meetings.  And that's about it.  The cadet isn't *REQUIRED* to do anything at all.  So I meet my requirement so I don't ding on a SUI, and move on with my life.  Doesn't stop 'forces of nature' from doing what they do best.  Neither of our appointed CAC personnel are *active* in CAC, -when- it is active, which is...  not very often, anyway...

In terms of retaining a cadet in phase 3 or 4 in the program...  or after they turn 18...   CAC is NOT an attractor that is going to attract someone who might otherwise leave, to stay in the program.  It just doesn't have that kind of draw.  There are a thousand other environments where a 'model government nerd' can find a FAR better environment to do that sort of thing.  Organizations that *specialize* in that sort of thing, and do only it, and have adult staff that are experts in it.

As always, until the echelon commander -really- understands what CAC is (most don't)(heck, most CP officers dont REALLY understand it), and supports it, and EMPLOYS it by seeking its advice, even its stated purposes (which provide fairly low training value) are moot.  CAC meeting without something to advise the commander on, and/or without access to advise the commander, is a waste of time, before attendance is even taken.

There are simply far better things to spend my time and attention on, in terms of return on investment, training and retaining my best and brightest cadets.

[DakRadz]

I nearly entered into this once again- but if this is to shift into the CAC's problems, there is a thread here:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11224.msg204971#msg204971

Or this thread could be locked for being extremely OT. Either way..
Still, there is the potential for an educational debate here.

[Eclipse]

And to quote myself in that thread...

Yes, it is the commanders who set the tone and herd the cats, I agree - but in a volunteer organization, people do things for a reason, or with specific goals in mind, especially cadets.  In this situation, in most cases, especially at the unit level, it is for the cord and the ribbon, with no reason or motivation beyond that.  And frankly, if participation itself is the goal, I'm fine with that, but setting up cadets to believe they have a voice where none exists is worse than them not having a voice at all.

Pointing out the acknowledged "challenges" of other parts of the organization doesn't address the specific issue, nor will it fix it.  It is also clearly part of the whole.

I have been trying for two years to get some momentum behind it locally, with a strong cadet chair (2 diamonds with a third on order.  If he's not the best cadet in the wing, he's certainly on the list) and an experienced senior advisor - we take the time and effort to cull the the 2a's, setup the meetings, and then the crickets start chirping.  The cadets are no call / no show, despite having made personal commitments to participate and being excited about the cord they are wearing, and then the circle of life begins again.

I don't personally have any issues that cadets can impact that I need a council's advice on - that's not to say we are perfect, or I know all - it means I /we have the same issues that 90+% of the units have - too few people, too few resources, and no top-down mandates beyond the marketing collateral.   As a whole my units meet the mandates, we have an encampment in my AOR, two successful wing-level activities, fly the wings off the planes for O-Rides and ES, and are doing fairly well in comparison to the rest of the wing.

I can't reach to the wing for my piece of the puzzle, because there is no plan, wing can't reach to region for the same reason, and region isn't getting anything from NHQ, so everyone is doing it on autopilot, which means mostly flying in circles to check the CI boxes.  Is it possible there is a roadmap of epic proportions that NHQ is executing but I am unaware of because it's not being passed down the chain? Yes, but that should be communicated in the magazine, the website, and word of mouth. 

You tell me to "take that hill", and I can work with that.  Tell me to "take that hill by surrounding it with bulldozers and digging it out from the bottom..." I can work with that too.  Even a generalization like "we have too many hills..." has some action around it, but simply mandating the existence of an advisory body with no guidance or input on what is appropriate for them to advise "on" gets us where we are today.

Is the rest of the country hitting high and hard on the CAC and my wing is unique?  Not based on discussions here and elsewhere or from what we see in national collateral.

Give me some SMART objectives, show me a set of real goals that have concrete issues that really need discussion and advice, then provide some assurance that every once in a while the effort will be appreciated and acted upon beyond arguing over whether I have enough signatures on the check request for the pizza party.

And by the inverse, in the words of a local commander, when I ask for the time, don't build me a clock.

As a mid-point leader (at best) in this organization, insinuating this is somehow my failing in a sea of otherwise successful commanders isn't fair either.  If you were able to point to a string of accomplishments and activity that left cadets with a good feeling about how they were spending their time (like you see with NESA, NBB, encampments, NCSA's, etc.), then I would be willing to accept that this is a local issue and a personal failing, but all we have seen at the national level in the last say 5 years is cadets who are either trying to settle personal scores, fix petty pet peeves, insert themselves into the senior programs, and banquet photos.  The lack of senior guidance at all levels is also clear.  The CAC can't stay in its lane because the lane isn't even marked.

Whenever I have the opportunity (as I did here), I ask cadets what they expect to accomplish in the CAC.  I ask senior leaders who are involved now, and used to be.  I have asked here and on CS.  Other than a few random, dated, examples of specific situations, I have yet to have anyone articulate anything that I can build on to inspire effort, and no one is pushing on me beyond making sure I provide a name.

Like Frazier Crane, I'm listening.

[coudano]

I tried to keep it related to retaining, and meaningfully training phase 4 and older cadets.

That said, I have long advocated getting phase 4 cadets involved at the wing level.  They should almost join the wing CP team, at the time they enter phase 4.  A phase 4 cadet truly has little to no role at most squadrons, certainly not as it pertains to his own training and development.  Certainly there are opportunities to lead by example, and mentor junior cadets.  Of course that requires a shift in gear on the part of the wing CP staff, and well probably at least one person on the wing cp staff JUST to coordinate the cadets working in the office.

I want my phase 4 cadets managing "multi-squadron" activities.  Group level classes, seminars, activities.  Encampments.  I want them building and coordinating teams of MULTIPLE phase 3 cadets, each of those with an appropriate chain of command under them.

That's the "day work" of a phase 4 cadet, in my opinion.
Their personal responsibilities are the promotion requirements in the program.
And their personal fun stuff is the high calibur NCSA's like IACE.
I think that more, cooler NCSA's for phase 4 cadets only, might help keep them in.  If they have something SUPER cool that they want to do, but have to stay active to do so, it may be a motivator.

In other words, the opportunities have to be "cool enough" to outweigh the opportunity costs, for cadets who are freshmen and sophomores in college.  And right now, we don't cut that mustard.



Also i'd like to point out, that my group commander doesn't have a group /CP officer.
Infact he doesn't have any staff at all.  He's just an administrative stop.

[Eclipse]

I want my phase 4 cadets managing "multi-squadron" activities.  Group level classes, seminars, activities.  Encampments.  I want them building and coordinating teams of MULTIPLE phase 3 cadets, each of those with an appropriate chain of command under them.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, encampments, obviously, but what is an example of a "group-level class" that a
cadet would be managing?

[coudano]

I want my phase 4 cadets managing "multi-squadron" activities.  Group level classes, seminars, activities.  Encampments.  I want them building and coordinating teams of MULTIPLE phase 3 cadets, each of those with an appropriate chain of command under them.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, encampments, obviously, but what is an example of a "group-level class" that a
cadet would be managing?

Honestly, the forming and coordinating of teams of phase 3 cadets each with a full command structure under them, is hard to do.  And you don't see it happen very often.  Because we (CAP) aren't very good at that sort of thing.


When I say group level, i'm talking about "big" groups.  By that I mean a group that has 7 or maybe more squadrons with active cadet programs in it.  The group i'm in only has 3 squadrons with cadet programs in it...  Yeah, not a lot going on around here...

Missouri's group 5 has an outstanding cadet leadership academy that is staffed and instructed by cadets.
Several places have CAP working airshows (or other events), and carrying on ops sort of "NBB style"
I've seen SAR Academies and even competitive outdoor events at the multi squadron level.

But by in large, the lack of these sorts of things is one of the things that we fail to do to attract and keep our top, and older cadets.   Doing this and doing it well would be a major paradigm shift for CAP.


I put a requirement on phase 4 cadets to do 'multi squadron' activities.  And then let them use their creativity and motivation to solve the problem.  Whenever I run a wing level project I make sure I have a phase 4 cadet either flying wingman with me on it, or doing the project with my guidance and input.

[Eclipse]

Whenever I run a wing level project I make sure I have a phase 4 cadet either flying wingman with me on it, or doing the project with my guidance and input.

That is actually not a bad idea...

[davidsinn]

Whenever I run a wing level project I make sure I have a phase 4 cadet either flying wingman with me on it, or doing the project with my guidance and input.

That is actually not a bad idea...

No it's not a bad idea at all. I'm going to steal it and use it at the group level for my personal AOR.

[A.Member]

If Wing and Region Commanders allow a significant part of their program to wither and die because they don't attend to it as they should, then shame on them.

This is indeed the reality of the world we live in. 

[coudano]

That is actually not a bad idea...

roight!!!!

[Ron1319]

The last thing I did at the meeting tonight was to hand off the training at the group training academy for a course I am  responsible for to a cadet.  I'll supervise and be sure the schedule makes sense and that they're doing a good job, but he'll do better than I would.  He is in the group of cadets who are promoting on schedule, now.  He is a c/1Lt and I believe he won't slow down until he finishes the program.

[Ron1319]

That said, I have long advocated getting phase 4 cadets involved at the wing level.  They should almost join the wing CP team, at the time they enter phase 4.  A phase 4 cadet truly has little to no role at most squadrons, certainly not as it pertains to his own training and development.  Certainly there are opportunities to lead by example, and mentor junior cadets.  Of course that requires a shift in gear on the part of the wing CP staff, and well probably at least one person on the wing cp staff JUST to coordinate the cadets working in the office.

I want my phase 4 cadets managing "multi-squadron" activities.  Group level classes, seminars, activities.  Encampments.  I want them building and coordinating teams of MULTIPLE phase 3 cadets, each of those with an appropriate chain of command under them.

That's the "day work" of a phase 4 cadet, in my opinion.
Their personal responsibilities are the promotion requirements in the program.
And their personal fun stuff is the high calibur NCSA's like IACE.
I think that more, cooler NCSA's for phase 4 cadets only, might help keep them in.  If they have something SUPER cool that they want to do, but have to stay active to do so, it may be a motivator.

In other words, the opportunities have to be "cool enough" to outweigh the opportunity costs, for cadets who are freshmen and sophomores in college.  And right now, we don't cut that mustard.

But if there were 4-5 Phase IV cadets at the squadron, wouldn't they be able to build a unit that wasn't "most squadrons" and create the environment where they did have the opportunity for personal growth at their unit?  We have three flights right now and developing a training plan is really complicated.  We have some areas where I rate us as "failing" such as getting new cadets to attend activities and if I had a couple of c/Col's to task with fixing that, I think it'd get fixed a lot faster than me trying to make it happen.

Because this comes up every time I say something like this, I'm not talking about just pinning grade on untrained, inexperienced cadets.  I mean ones who are active and pursuing their own growth.  The other thought that I keep trying to wrap my head around is that every cadet isn't going to be perfect at everything.  I feel like some of the seniors I know expect a cadet at a certain grade to have certain skills and they look at something that they're not great at rather than what they are great at.  In the world where we had 6 Spaatz cadets (and 2-3 future Spaatz cadets) on our NCC team, we all had our strengths and weaknesses.  I wonder how many times a cadet has been either been held back or discouraged because of a senior's bias towards that cadet without a very clear picture of the cadet's strengths and how he would benefit the unit with more grade and more responsibility in the areas where he can excel.

That is to say that I personally SUCK at bookkeeping.  I'm terrible at it.  Somehow I managed to take my business's slush fund (where we keep our change, basically) and lose $30 last week.  I don't know where it went.  I don't remember where it went.  It probably went into a cash box or register that needed more change.  I didn't write it down, I didn't send our bookkeeper a text message saying where it went.  At least I'm the owner and I can say, "Well, that's what I get for taking the slush fund that week when I should have been sure it got to the person who's responsible for it."  That doesn't mean that I'm not good at a lot of other things and that I haven't managed to staff a very large group of part time people who are excited about helping grow my business, including putting three managers in charge of what I'll call "functional areas."

It's well worth giving more thought to.  I've been thinking about it a lot the last few days and I figured I'd share.

[J.American]

1) What do you consider to be an appropriate rate of promotion for cadets?
At least 4 in a year.

2) Does that rate change depending on whether a cadet joins CAP at 12 years old or 14 years old?  16?
Nope.  Cadets can be mentored to promote that fast if they need help.

3) Do you have examples of high ranking phase IV cadets at your unit?  In your group?  In other words, do you or the cadets in your unit have Phase IV leaders to look up to?
Not really.  We have one C/Lt Col, but she doesn't come anymore due to college.  And no groups in AL.

4) Are there fewer high ranking cadets now than there were in your past?
Actually, when I joined, our entire squadron was run by NCOs.  And actually, the squadron was run better back then.  Now we have... 4 C/2d Lt's I believe.   About to be 6.

5) Are cadets sticking with CAP less often after 18 years old now than they were in the past?
You would have to ask the past people.  But from my experience, we have no one older than 18.  They go to college and leave us.

6) Do you believe after answering these questions whether we need to make fundamental changes either in our approach to CAP or the program to improve these situations?
I have always thought that CAP needs to enforce progression through the cadet program more aggressively.  Whether it be through the grades, Leadership camps, etc.

[titanII]

I am only going to answer the second question:
I really don't think the rate should change, because, as has already been raised,  an older cadet will, theoretically, be more able to advance quicker to reach a certain point (Mitchell, Spaatz, etc.) because of their higher level of maturity, experience in studying/tests/working hard. Also, the question of motivation is a good one. If a cadet (like myself) who joins at 16 really wants to get to some achievment, then they will presumably work harder to reach that point. And as for younger cadets, I think that the achievment rate of 2/year is slow enough for even a twelve year old- at first, the tests, etc. aren't that difficult, so they may start at a somewhat slow rate. But I think that as they mature, and the tests/requirements become more difficult, then their personal rate of promotion may increase. And if not, then they can always ask their commander or a senior member for some help or mentoring. Just some ideas...

[Ron1319]

Paraphrased quotes from the CAWG Conference yesterday:

Senior member who had been an IACE escort:  "There's not really much training or opportunity left once a cadet gets their Earhart award.  There aren't really any activities for them to do and they shouldn't be a cadet commander because they would be taking opportunities away from other cadets."

Wing CAC representative, C/2Lt:  "I don't see why anyone would want to promote base C/Capt.  Once you get C/Capt, you can go on IACE, but why would you want to promote past that?"

I'm proud to report that we now have three Phase IV cadets in our unit, and they are now both very active in Group, Wing and Region CAC.  I'm still astonished by this attitude. 

[coudano]

If IACE is the /only/ reason you're staying in up to the earhart, you're doing it wrong.

(that said I agree that there should be additional things for cadets to do as they progress further)