NCC 2011

[Ron1319]

I saw a write-up with some proposals to change NCC and responded to National HQ regarding those proposals, and there were some announcements about some uncertainties pertaining to next year's competition.  I'm wondering if anyone has a link to more information about these, if there is a public discussion of them somewhere, and if anyone has any details on NCC 2011 other than the date?  As we're starting once-a-month practices at this point, I'd like to be sure I'm in the loop if there are changes taking place. 

Ron

[Spaceman3750]

At this point, focus on kicking butt at wing and region competitions first. You have a long road ahead of you to NCC and some maybe kinda sorta political issue is something that you can deal with when you're riding home from region competition with a trophy (if this issue that you're talking about materializes at all).

You might want to think about practicing more frequently than once a month once the holidays have passed .

[Ron1319]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

[coudano]

I was hoping for an official announcement on what the source material for the academic events is going to be,
considering that we have multiple versions of cadet textbooks concurrently in use right now.

Ideally before the wing comps, which are starting real soon, yeh

[Bluelakes 13]

Ron,

There were some proposals and the CAC kicked around some ideas, but nothing has been officially changed.  What specific "announcements about some uncertainties " are you referring to?

I am sure any changes to 52-4 would not take effect till the following year's competition.

Are you asking for anything specifically?

Major James Kalemis
Public Affaris Officer
National Cadet Competition

[Ron1319]

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Innovations_Layout___Reduced_141CF7A7CFF32.pdf

Specifically:

"A recent survey showed that fewer than 5% of cadets participate in NCC at any echelon. While drill
team and color guard are outstanding cadet activities, our NCC program is serving only a tiny segment
of cadets.We need to reform NCC so that more units will want to participate in this fabulous program.
Why is participation so low? Our conversations with people from around the nation lead us to believe
there are three main reasons.
(1) NCC is incredibly expensive in terms of equipment and uniforms.
(2) The time required to practice is too much, if the unit wants to engage in other activities as well.
(3) The program does not fit well with "Tuesday night," and in many wings, the drill team is a winglevel
program, not a squadron one.
To counter these difficulties, we propose NCC rules would be adjusted as following.
Inspection. Today, inspection is a measure of fundraising and tailoring. Instead of standing for an inranks
inspection, cadets would be given a shirt on a hangar, some accoutrements, and a card outlining
that hypothetical cadet's achievements. Fifteen minutes later, the judges would inspect that uniform.
Volleyball. Put a 6'2", twenty year old young man up against a 5'1" eighty pound twelve year old girl
on a volleyball court and you'll have an incredible mismatch. That little girl will destroy that guy! Instead
of volleyball, cadets would participate in a team leadership problem (like what is used at COS).
Innovative. Training for the innovative drill is incredibly time consuming and difficult to do well unless
every cadet attends every practice.Moreover, USAFA drill team veterans tell us that even the Academy
foregoes innovative drill for those reasons.We would remove innovative drill from the competition,
but make the standard drill more challenging by placing obstacles on the drill field.
Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level
"super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.
The measure of success would be the total number of cadets participating in NCC at the wing level or
higher.Within two years, we'd expect to see at least 25% of cadets doing so, opposed to the 5% now,
for a five-fold increase."

I'll post my response here for comment:

"Inspection. Today, inspection is a measure of fundraising and tailoring. Instead of standing for an inranks inspection, cadets would be given a shirt on a hangar, some accoutrements, and a card outlining that hypothetical cadet's achievements. Fifteen minutes later, the judges would inspect that uniform.

As the team escort for the NCC team last year and having a leadership role in the squadron, I have observed a dramatic change in uniform wear by the cadets who took part in NCC 2010.  Their influence them helps the rest of the group and raises the bar for many more cadets than just those on the team.  There is a dramatic difference between knowing the regulations and seeing a nearly perfect uniform on yourself.  Our team budget to do reasonably well in inspection was around $50/cadet.  They are motivated to fund raise and have more new items for next year's inspection, but most of our feedback was related to preparation and not to tailoring and things that cost more money.  They learned from the experience.  Small stain, strings that they didn't find, gig lines not being right and tie lengths not all being matched perfectly are examples of items that they will improve upon for next year based on the judge's feedback.

Volleyball. Put a 6'2", twenty year old young man up against a 5'1" eighty pound twelve year old girl on a volleyball court and you'll have an incredible mismatch. That little girl will destroy that guy  Instead of volleyball, cadets would participate in a team leadership problem (like what is used at COS).

At NCC, the small girls were very useful to the team by fulfilling their place on the team.  They were setting, they were bumping incoming serves, hitting some very well placed serves over the net when it was their turn to serve, and they were actively playing and doing their part.  I believe very few of them felt like they did not have a vital part to play.  A team leadership problem is almost impossible to evaluate.  Any evaluation would be either dangerous due to the "race" nature of completing due to time or entirely subjective and impossible to prepare for.  The cadets from our team are very much looking forward to working on their volleyball skills and being a more competitive force in the event next year.

Innovative. Training for the innovative drill is incredibly time consuming and difficult to do well unless every cadet attends every practice.Moreover, USAFA drill team veterans tell us that even the Academy foregoes innovative drill for those reasons.We would remove innovative drill from the competition, but make the standard drill more challenging by placing obstacles on the drill field.

Standard drill is intended to be a display of excellent drill movement and technique.  The current card format allows the team to display knowledge and perfect execution of both the standard and less used moves in the drill manual.  The teams pride themselves on this knowledge.  Any good team commander could easily avoid some obstacles.  A good innovative drill routine does not require all of the cadets to be at every practice.  Many teams have cadets join late, only a couple of weeks before NCC, and learn the innovative routine for performance at competition in a few hours.  We have several alternates who learned spots in the routine and could fill in as needed for cadets who missed practices.  Perhaps decreasing the time limit for innovative would help make it easier.  2.5 minutes from report in to report out would simplify the event as the higher placed teams at NCC did have very long routines.

Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level "super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.

NCC 2010 was incredibly useful for us to help bring the group together.  We were able to have cadets from squadrons working together and building friendships who had never worked together before, and will carry those working relationships into group activities and into the other parts of the program in the future.  This rule would lead to is super squadrons where cadets would all transfer to the same unit to participate in NCC as a team, or squadrons that had meeting nights on different nights at different locations to satisfy the requirement.  This is the single biggest concern that I have about the proposals as it would defeat my primary purpose for wanting to put together a drill team.  Squadrons in Northern California seldom work together on any activities, and we've already seen very large improvements during group activities in the cadet staff being more cohesive and having more applicants due to the drill team friendships.
"

[Bluelakes 13]

I thought that publication died at the vine.   

It's basically a summary of what the CAC came up with.  For any of those proposals to be implemented, they would have to follow the normal regulation change process.  Would take months, if not years.  And scuttlebut is that they are not too popular.

Interestingly, I agree with all your comments.  Lack of funds is never a reason for anything.  Volleyball is skill and strategy - size and weight is not as irrelevant.  I am not a big fan of innovative (although we rocked in '06 and '07), but I know of no good substitute.  And that is not how to solve the SuperTeam issue (presuming that is an issue) -we were already short a drill team this year, this would not help.

[Spaceman3750]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

I apologize, I did not mean to imply that you were ignorant, though I suppose that is how it came across.

[Ron1319]

No problem.  I'm glad the hear that the consensus is that this is dead.  I hope the National CAC didn't waste very much time on it and that the survey they speak of was small.

[Ron1319]

Onto other matters.. why isn't finding ways to encourage NCC participation a primary goal of CAC's at all levels?  I particularly like the idea of recommending different rules for group competitions.  I realize the NCC manual only pertains to the national competition.  What about adding a chapter for lower level competitions.  I don't think that volleyball and innovative NEED to be a part of group level competitions.  What about making them specified as entirely optional at group and wing levels?  That's just one idea, anyone have other ideas? 

[a2capt]

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?

It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.


There is a certain amount of team work involved in a good volleyball game, and spontaneous intercommunication, perhaps in ways similar to taking queues from each other like drill and color guard movements do.

[Flying Pig]

It is interesting that you assume ignorance.  We fielded a team at NCC last year (2010), in other words we were already there.  I was Great Lakes Region team commander as a cadet in 1997 and we took third place.  Unfortunately, there were no fellow competitors at the wing or region level (CAWG and PCR), but we did respectably well at NCC for the cadet's first time at a real competition.  We will do much better next year.  I am well aware of how to schedule drill team practices and what is required to place in the competition.

So back to the politics, please.  We need to know what to prepare for.

Our innovative routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LILQO6yso4

Ron

btw -- sorry, I thought I had posted in the correct category.  I'm not sure how this doesn't qualify as a NCSA question.

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about? 

[Ron1319]

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about?

*tongue in cheek* Awesome!  I'm ecstatic to hear that another Californian is working on an innovative routine with a team and can do better.  I'll see you at wing comp.  I was hoping we'd have competition this year. 

If you were looking for a real answer, they decided that they were off center every time they did the routine and the rules say you have to be back centered when you report out.  The cadets decided to add the right steps.  It's their team and I wasn't going to stop them or tell them they had to do it somewhere else in the routine.  I believe that was the first time they had done the routine in front of more than 5 people.  I think they did fantastically well considering they didn't know what innovative drill was prior to last January.

After we see you at wing comp, if any of your top cadets would like to join us at region comp, we'd be happy to have them try out for a spot on the team.  Seriously.

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?   It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.

In our case, because of the perception of difficultly fielding a team at lower levels, we had almost no competition on the way to NCC.  At group, the other team was thrown together with no practice before the competition.  At wing competition the team that went to NCC the previous year decided not to field a team and we had no competitors.  Region competition did not happen for drill teams, only for color guards.  We didn't have to go. 

The first time we played volleyball against another team was at NCC.  I love volleyball.  I loved playing volleyball at NCC competitions as a cadet.  I don't need to be convinced that volleyball is great.  Earlier in the thread I spent a while defending to national HQ why I think volleyball should stay in the competition.  Innovative has always been my FAVORITE part of the competition.  If not having innovative or volleyball at wing competition meant that we had three teams to compete against at each level, I'd take the competition over an argument that the contest at the top level should be fed by the same contest at lower levels.  That's my only point.  Something has to change because one region was not represented at NCC last year and our region was under prepared not from lack of trying but simply from lack of perspective from not having had an NCC seasoned competitor prior to NCC. 

I assure you, they'll be better at every event next summer at Wright State.  They're still fired up from NCC 6 months ago.

[Flying Pig]

Your routine looked good, but right about the 2 minute mark things started to get pretty sloppy with the heels.  And the team at the very end of a silent routine had to do 3 right steps??  What was that about?

*tongue in cheek* Awesome!  I'm ecstatic to hear that another Californian is working on an innovative routine with a team and can do better.  I'll see you at wing comp.  I was hoping we'd have competition this year. 

If you were looking for a real answer, they decided that they were off center every time they did the routine and the rules say you have to be back centered when you report out.  The cadets decided to add the right steps.  It's their team and I wasn't going to stop them or tell them they had to do it somewhere else in the routine.  I believe that was the first time they had done the routine in front of more than 5 people.  I think they did fantastically well considering they didn't know what innovative drill was prior to last January.

After we see you at wing comp, if any of your top cadets would like to join us at region comp, we'd be happy to have them try out for a spot on the team.  Seriously.

Should not the contest at the top level be fed by the same contest at the lower levels?   It would be a craptacular failure if the team got all the way to National only to just completely suck at something because there was no need, thus no emphasis, at the levels on the way up.

In our case, because of the perception of difficultly fielding a team at lower levels, we had almost no competition on the way to NCC.  At group, the other team was thrown together with no practice before the competition.  At wing competition the team that went to NCC the previous year decided not to field a team and we had no competitors.  Region competition did not happen for drill teams, only for color guards.  We didn't have to go. 

The first time we played volleyball against another team was at NCC.  I love volleyball.  I loved playing volleyball at NCC competitions as a cadet.  I don't need to be convinced that volleyball is great.  Earlier in the thread I spent a while defending to national HQ why I think volleyball should stay in the competition.  Innovative has always been my FAVORITE part of the competition.  If not having innovative or volleyball at wing competition meant that we had three teams to compete against at each level, I'd take the competition over an argument that the contest at the top level should be fed by the same contest at lower levels.  That's my only point.  Something has to change because one region was not represented at NCC last year and our region was under prepared not from lack of trying but simply from lack of perspective from not having had an NCC seasoned competitor prior to NCC. 

I assure you, they'll be better at every event next summer at Wright State.  They're still fired up from NCC 6 months ago.

Relax brother.  I went to NCC three times as a cadet on the Pacific Region Drill Team.  Placed 2nd all three years, two years we placed first in innovative drill.  I made the comment as someone who has been where you are.  All four years we were the only team who had a completely silent drill routine.  As a cadet I taught a course at CAWG cadet conference on how to start a winning drill team.  Its interesting you assume ignorance.

I guess I should add....

NCC 89, 91, 92.  In 1990 we lost Wing to Sq44.

[Ron1319]

I am relaxed.  I didn't assume ignorance, but I didn't see your team at wing comp last year

[Flying Pig]

Nope you sure didnt.  But that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about either.

[tsrup]

http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Innovations_Layout___Reduced_141CF7A7CFF32.pdf

Specifically:


Super Teams. If we want more squadrons to get involved in NCC, we need to prohibit wing-level "super teams." The cadets of a drill team would have to come from no more than two squadrons.

^^^ This is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

While Im sure it is well intentioned, It basically rules out any possibility of and smaller wings or squadrons from participating. 

We have a wing wide team because that is the only way to get enough cadets together to form a drill team. 

[Ron1319]

Nope you sure didnt.  But that doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about either.

Alright, I'm sorry I was a bit of an a**.  The other thread has me a bit riled up.  I think we'd get along great in person and I'd love to meet you some time.

[Ned]

^^^ This is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.

While Im sure it is well intentioned, It basically rules out any possibility of and smaller wings or squadrons from participating. 

We have a wing wide team because that is the only way to get enough cadets together to form a drill team.

I guess you don't get out much.  I've seen much larger loads of crap that this.

But I wrote that particular boatload because of a few significant concerns:

1.  NCC is one of the largest single expenditures of CP money in all of CAP.  (Airfares for over a hundred folks, lodging, meals, facility rentals, etc. amount to over a hundred thousand dollars)

2.  The whole point of NCC is to support the cadet program by providing a venue for healthy competition in the same skills units perform at the local level, thus reinforcing the local units.

3.  If the expenditure of this huge sum of money does not in fact support the local units, then we should take a close look and make sure we are being good stewards of the taxpayer and corporate funds being expended.

4.  "Super teams" by definition do not support local units.  They appear, in fact, to actually hurt local units by absorbing a considerable amount of time of the best and brightest cadets from multiple units.  Time that those cadets could otherwise be devoting to their home units. 

The essence of the proposals was to alter the compeition to make it really and honestly accessible to average and above-average units.  When we set the bar so high that local units cannot effectively participate because of costs, logistics, and personnel resources then we have failed in our original purpose and we may even be spending a fair amount of the taxpayer's money on a program that touches less than 5% of our cadets during their careers.

If we cannot structure NCC in a way that allows local units a decent shot at participating, we may be better off discontinuing the activity and redistributing the funds to things like encampments, uniforms, and AEX materials that each unit would benefit from.

Is it still a boatload of crap?

Ned Lee

[tsrup]

The "super teams" part was the only item I was referring to. 

I fail to see how the proposed "2 squadrons" maximum would encourage participation from everyone.

Sure you'd be doing that for larger squadrons, but smaller ones would be left behind in the endeavor. 

Let me break it down barney for you.

SDWG has 9 squadrons, with active cadet participation ranging from 2-15 cadets.  Two squadrons in the state have 10 or more active cadets. 

So basically it's either the two large squadrons make a team, or we play, "who gets to be the squadron to join one of the larger ones". while the others are left behind.  I fail to see how that benefits a local squadron at all.

All that will happen, is an influx of cadets "transferring" to the participating squadrons, and that definitely doesn't help a local unit in the least bit.


Some squadrons are bigger and smaller than others, the proposed "super team" item is ignorant of that.

Is it still a boatload of crap?

Yes



If I could change anything about the NCC rules, I would allow cadet officers to participate in color guard competition, and remove the requirement for the accompanying senior member to be 25. 
CAP goes through great lengths ensuring that it is grade that matters, and not age, but they put in regulatory dribble like that.