Identifying some patches from NESA photos

[RVT]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4742127837_3d7affdd17.jpgOverlooking that this uniform still has "US Civil Air Patrol" on it,, what exactly is that patch that appears immediately above it?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4740680277_cc16196d89.jpgI don't recognize whats over the nametag here, or on either of the pocket patches.  I assume the left pocket is a unit patch, but whats that on the right side?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4742120935_510ce2dbfe.jpg In this case I recognize all of them, but now I'm wondering how many optional patches can you wear on the right sleeve of a flight suit?  As many as you can cram on there?

[notaNCO forever]

The patch above the cap tape is a cap ranger tag

[Eclipse]

1 - HMRS Ranger Tab.  Wear is controversial at best, especially outside PAWG
(he is also sporting an unauthorized modification to his sleeve)

2 - Challenger recovery mission participation patch - only approved for those involved from TXWG.
(whatever those wings are she's wearing IC Bdage above her name is not worn there)

3 - He needs to pick one.

[Larry Mangum]

The patch above the name tag is an IC badge

[Eclipse]

The patch above the name tag is an IC badge

Well that's not where you wear it on the BDU's.  She needs to make a choice - GBD or IC.

All of these and the myriad other issues should be fixed on the spot - that's one of the reasons we have national activities
is to bring standardization and correction to people in situations like these.

[DC]

I love the giant swaths of velcro on #2's breast pockets too. Very professional looking. 

[NIN]

1 - HMRS Ranger Tab.  Wear is controversial at best, especially outside PAWG
(he is also sporting an unauthorized modification to his sleeve)

Actually, he's wearing the Nomex Aviator Battle Dress Uniform.    The ABDU replaced the 'green bag' Nomex flight suit.  I have a set, they're.. interesting.  The key here is, however, that they are _not_ the same as BDUs and shouldn't be worn as such.

(A friend was wear testing these for the Army @ Fort Hood in the 1990s, and got chewed out by a colonel in the line at the PX because "you aviators always want to do something to your uniform to be different.."   Then he showed the colonel the documentation for the wear test for HQDA or Natick.. Shoe, meet other foot.)

[Mustang]

This horribly faded uniform is precisely why friends don't let friends buy BBDUs from Vanguard.  Go with Propper Battle-rip.

[DakRadz]

That's... Oh. That's a uniform? I thought she sewed her patches onto an old jean jacket...

Hmm. Is her ES Patch in the correct spot?

[RVT]

That's... Oh. That's a uniform? I thought she sewed her patches onto an old jean jacket...Hmm. Is her ES Patch in the correct spot?

It is, given that an IC badge is sewn on in the wrong place, displacing the ES patch upwards.  If she really has her heart set on wearing three badges the IC could be put on the left pocket flap.  Still unauthorized but it looks less wrong as its common in the actual military to do that when you have a third badge to wear.

The Velcro on the pockets is probably the color the BBDU originally was, showing how trashed the entire uniform is.  Its probably still OK for field work but I would not show up at a national run school in something like that.  By the same token, considering how faded the uniform IS, this is obviously someone who does a lot of work and I wouldn't give them any grief about it.

[Eclipse]

That's... Oh. That's a uniform? I thought she sewed her patches onto an old jean jacket...Hmm. Is her ES Patch in the correct spot?

It is, given that an IC badge is sewn on in the wrong place, displacing the ES patch upwards.  If she really has her heart set on wearing three badges the IC could be put on the left pocket flap.  Still unauthorized but it looks less wrong as its common in the actual military to do that when you have a third badge to wear.

Not in the Air Force, and please don't suggest it.

The BBDU can look like that in two bad washings, that's why I only dryclean mine  (UBER STARCH! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)

[DakRadz]

If you look at her albeit unauthorized but admittedly decorated uniform, she probably does a lot of work, as opposed to the "two washes" idea. The badges she does have aren't exactly handed out like candy.

[JK657]

There seems to always be a thread going about uniforms not looking professional (grey slides, BBDU, TPU, no hard rank,etc) but when I see a pic with a half dozen patches I think it stands out more than any of those.
I'm all for being proud of your accomplishments and all but sometimes less is more.

[RVT]

Not in the Air Force, and please don't suggest it.

Well the best fix I can think of would be to take off the IC badge, the ES patch and the aviator wings and then put the IC badge on where the aviator wings came off.  If you have to lose one of the three badges on a BDU uniform the aviator wings are the least important. 

Anybody with a master ground team badge AND an IC badge really doesn't need to be wearing a Pluto patch anyway.

The BBDU can look like that in two bad washings, that's why I only dryclean mine  (UBER STARCH! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)

I'm not going to dry clean a field uniform.  But nothing I've ever gotten from Propper has faded anyway so I'm not really concerned.

[spacecommand]

If you see someone with wearing something on a uniform incorrectly or wearing an unauthorized item what do you do?
Like the topic at hand, incorrect patch placement etc?

I've seen photos where people are either: (not the photos listed here though)
-Wearing the wrong type nameplate (eg senior wearing blue three lined nameplate)
-Wearing  the wrong type of nameplate on a uniform that uses a different type of nameplate
-Wearing the nameplate on the wrong side

I don't know, but maybe I'm just crazy, but the first thing I always look to see is if their nameplate is correct.   

[Eclipse]

The choice is the GBD badge or the IC in that position.  The IC badge is not an aviator badge and does not replace the wings.

[Eclipse]

If you see someone with wearing something on a uniform incorrectly or wearing an unauthorized item what do you do?
Like the topic at hand, incorrect patch placement etc?

You tell them in a direct, professional, and private manner.

If you noticed, so did ten other people, and if you respect your fellow members you will tell them.  For those that don't want to listen,
or are breaking regs on purpose, a call or note to their CC is not unwarranted.

PS. Make sure you're right...

[SarDragon]

I have two sets of Propper poly-cotton BBDUs, from Vanguard. They probably haven't been washed as much as the ones above, but they are hardly faded, and IMHO, the Vanguard fang was unnecessary.

The Velcro is undoubtedly black. Being primarily nylon based, it doesn't fade nearly as fast as other fabric materials. I have some Navy blue on some other clothing that is many shades darker than the faded poly-cotton that originally matched.

[Fubar]

Poking around flickr does allow one to discover some interesting things:

One of these patches is wrong:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/911photo/4020819351/

Interesting modification to the jacket (not to mention BDUs at a cemetery):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/3110927233_8d1de9b61d_b.jpg

Looks like a Blue Beret makes an appearance outside of Wisconsin:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglz/4430076412/

Just how much eye-makeup is allowed?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4430077464_148d6193f9.jpg

Nice Hat:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/3860278823_56d8bb1dea.jpg

Another nice hat:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3450/3779979092_d196a34cfb.jpg

Saluting in a polo shirt:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4626779337_215af9b441.jpg

Metal rank (was this allowed in the past perhaps?):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1061/1096126427_1d48d2da5b_b.jpg

This was about 5 minutes worth of surfing. I skipped over the heavy folks in BDUs, numerous boonie hats, and blue BDUs that had seen better days.

[DakRadz]

Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

[Eclipse]

^We've had plenty of fun over the years with bad uniform threads, here and elsewhere, however they usually prove o be contentious and counterproductive.  Most of the really active ones were before Facebook hit big, so I would imagine that now we'd have no issue whatsoever finding lots.

With that said, not all the examples above are a problem, or probably not for the reasons you're thinking, which is where the "fun" starts.

Both of the patches on the flight suit are wrong today, but that depends on when the photo was taken.

One interpretation of the existing ICL/manual situation allows for berets to be worn outside NBB.

I don't see any modification to the jacket other than the ES patch worn incorrectly - this is likely at a "Wreaths" laying and considering its done during the winter, BDU's are pretty common.

Boonies obviously are a non-starter in any USAF combo.

Saluting in the corporates is pretty common, seriously nitpick elsewhere.

Yeah, metal rank = no, not to mention he appears to be wearing the luggage tag as a CAP tape and his spacing is a mess.

[Eclipse]

Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

Our headgear is not restricted based on being on a military base - either its authorized or it isn't.

In this case, if you ascribe to the 2006 Board minutes allowing for the wear, then being on a base is irrelevant.

[A.Member]

If you look at her albeit unauthorized but admittedly decorated uniform, she probably does a lot of work, as opposed to the "two washes" idea. The badges she does have aren't exactly handed out like candy.

So?

The fact that someone may or may not "do a lot of work" does not excuse them from wearing the uniform correctly.   

It's expecially sad that she's a Lt Col.   If anyone should know how to wear a uniform correctly, it should be a Lt Col.  The OP examples were all very blatant violations.

[DakRadz]

a. Removal of “U.S. Civil Air Patrol” tape on the Battle Dress Uniform and
CAP Blue Field Uniform. Members are now authorized to return to the “Civil Air
Patrol” tape on the BDUs, field uniforms and field jackets immediately. The mandatory
wear date for the “Civil Air Patrol” tape and phase out of the “U.S.” version is 1 March
2010.

So, while they have certainly had plenty of time to do this, depending on picture dates, these may not be incorrect. Of course anything from this year's NESA is wrong because of when NESA occurred, but for those who are searching through photo sites, keep this in mind.

[A.Member]

...

With that said, not all the examples above are a problem, or probably not for the reasons you're thinking, which is where the "fun" starts.

Both of the patches on the flight suit are wrong today, but that depends on when the photo was taken.

One interpretation of the existing ICL/manual situation allows for berets to be worn outside NBB.

I don't see any modification to the jacket other than the ES patch worn incorrectly - this is likely at a "Wreaths" laying and considering its done during the winter, BDU's are pretty common.

Boonies obviously are a non-starter in any USAF combo.

Saluting in the corporates is pretty common, seriously nitpick elsewhere.

Yeah, metal rank = no, not to mention he appears to be wearing the luggage tag as a CAP tape and his spacing is a mess.

Agreed.  A couple of the nitpicks there are pretty weak, unlike those from the OP.

[DakRadz]

Poking around flickr does allow one to discover some interesting things:

One of these patches is wrong:
Eclipse addressed it.

Interesting modification to the jacket (not to mention BDUs at a cemetery):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/3110927233_8d1de9b61d_b.jpg
I don't see any modification- on the M-65, Officers (both SM and cadet) wear the rank and CAP cutouts like that. His ES Patch? (The only thing I see) Wrong, but I just recently had to correct that on a cadet. Fairly common if they don't check regs.

Looks like a Blue Beret makes an appearance outside of Wisconsin:
Not my area of expertise.

Just how much eye-makeup is allowed?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4430077464_148d6193f9.jpg
Wow... And a First Sergeant to boot. She probably shouldn't be wearing those diamonds on her rank either, unless she's the activity First Sergeant.

Nice hats- Eclipse addressed.

Saluting in a polo shirt:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4626779337_215af9b441.jpg
I will come back at this one with as much linkage as I can find. Hold.

Metal rank (was this allowed in the past perhaps?):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1061/1096126427_1d48d2da5b_b.jpg
Big no-no. *Twitch*

Agreed with above. There are many better nitpicks, or even valid concerns.

[Larry Mangum]

Lt Col Wisennand is in fact a very experienced Incident Commander and Squadron Commander. While I do not agree with the logic used to justify the wearing of the IC badge over the name tag, the justification given was CAPR 39-1, Section B, paragraph 6-2, which states that "A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn on the AF-style uniforms". Do I agree with the placement, no, especially after you read table 6-4. However, since the IC Badge is not even covered in the current 39-1 and is solely contained in an ICL, it is something that could be open to misinterpretation, even though the ICl states that it is worn in the same place as the Ground Team badge and other specialty badges.

[RVT]

1 - HMRS Ranger Tab.  Wear is controversial at best, especially outside PAWG

I tracked this one down.  This makes for an interesting read.http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1851&p_sid=o5fih26k&p_lva=1060&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_srch=1&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NzMsNzMmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTAmcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PWhhd2sgbW91bnRhaW4gbWVkaWM!&p_li=

Apparently not only the ranger / medic tabs can be worn, but the blue beret itself is authorized for wear with either BDU no matter where you go.  As this is still on the knowlegebase, I think it can be assumed that it has not been rescinded.  However 39-1 doesn't define the existence of these insignia.  Based on what I can find in print, you could have a Hawk Mountain ranger tab, a Hawk Mountain Medic tab, and the two badges allowed by 39-1 all stacked up four deep on your BDU shirt and topped off with a blue beret and be walking around Langley AFB like that, and according to everything  I can find, you are correct.

This CAN'T be right - at least not anymore, considering the names I see on this.

[Short Field]

I hope it makes everyone feel more superior trashing these individuals because of their photos and relatively minor uniform violations.  Too much eye makeup on a cadet?  Get real and read the regulations.  BBDUs too faded?  Wow.  Searching the internet looking for marginally incorrect uniform violations so you can post them here?  Way too much time on your hands.

Lets just say I am very impressed by everyone's professionalism and adherence to CAP core values.

[RVT]

P
Saluting in a polo shirt:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4626779337_215af9b441.jpg

Shes Saluting.  Hes picking his nose.

Well I suppose I could have said "this is an example of an improperly rendered salute" but that doesn't really convey the message with as much impact.

[Short Field]

It is always appropriate to return a salute.

[A.Member]

I hope it makes everyone feel more superior trashing these individuals because of their photos and relatively minor uniform violations.  Too much eye makeup on a cadet?  Get real and read the regulations.  BBDUs too faded?  Wow.  Searching the internet looking for marginally incorrect uniform violations so you can post them here?  Way too much time on your hands.

Lets just say I am very impressed by everyone's professionalism and adherence to CAP core values.

The violations in the OP are not minor, especially when you consider the ranks of the individuals.

While you may not like the fact that these items were called out, everyone that's particpated in this thread has addressed the issue professionally.   If I were to have a uniform violation, I fully expect that someone point it out to me - that's our responsibility as members and it certainly is line with our core values, particularly as it pertains to excellence.

[AlphaSigOU]

Poking around flickr does allow one to discover some interesting things:

Just how much eye-makeup is allowed?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2700/4430077464_148d6193f9.jpg
Wow... And a First Sergeant to boot. She probably shouldn't be wearing those diamonds on her rank either, unless she's the activity First Sergeant.

Doesn't look that extreme to me. If she was sporting the serious goth look, then I would have a problem. The first sergeant diamond is still a bone of contention; it's not listed in 39-1, but listed in 52-16.

Saluting in a polo shirt:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4626779337_215af9b441.jpg
I will come back at this one with as much linkage as I can find. Hold.

Even though the polo shirt uniform is not a 'military style' uniform, there's no regulation that disallows customs and courtesies while in that uniform. Granted, if you work with cadets, you should wear AF-style or the grays. By tradition, if a junior recognizes a senior, salutes are customarily exchanged in civilian clothers.

Metal rank (was this allowed in the past perhaps?):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1061/1096126427_1d48d2da5b_b.jpg
Big no-no. *Twitch*

That's just lazy. Even worse is sewing on cloth grade insignia Navy style (aligned with the tip of the collar instead of parallel to the front edge).

[Short Field]

Calling out uniform violations (and perceived violations) and making fun of people on a open access website is professional?   "Shes Saluting.  Hes picking his nose" is a professional comment?  I fail to see where this conforms to CAP Core Values and I also fail to see any result except the humiliation of the individuals for the enjoyment of the poster.  Yes, inappropriate.  Where is the standard "praise in public, correct in private".  If they were posting on this site, I might feel less strongly but they are not posting here.

Do you call cadets up in front of your squadron and critique their use of makeup in front of everyone?

[Bluelakes 13]

It's not unwarranted or against our Core Values to remark on uniform issues seen on published photos.  (yes folks, anything posted on Flikr or Facebook is considered published).
It's THE WAY you do it that draws the line.
Remarks like "Wow... And a First Sergeant to boot" "TWITCH" and "Just how much eye-makeup is allowed?" are uncalled for. 
Note the indescretion so that everyone can learn from it.  Leave your personal commentary to yourself.

And as I posted on Facebook this week, it used to be we had to look hard to find photos with uniforms issues for our Level 1 uniform classes.  Facebook has now made it very easy.

[DakRadz]

The "Twitch" should have been explained-
I was thinking about some SMs I know who might do that, and the resulting conflict when someone told them they were wrong.
Meant to type that, left it off.

Now, on the saluting in polo- I will find as many cites as possible showing that he is correct for returning the salute.

[Bluelakes 13]

Moreso, some of these photos I would challenge the person posting them, like I do many times on Facebook 

The "picking his nose" comment is uncalled for, the photo was probably snapped while the arm was being raised.  Again, I would challenge the person
posting it.  Usually the answer is "that's the best I have" and then I would ask, did your commander approve it?  Usually crickets...

Cheap cameras now means that anyone can snap a photo and "publish" it.  Many forget that anything published by a PAO, or any unit member
for that matter, must be approved by their unit commander.  Is this reasonable in this century?  Maybe not, but the theory still remains.

If you wish to point an issue so we can all learn from it, fine.  I even encourage it.  But leave your colorful commentary to yourself.

[A.Member]

Calling out uniform violations (and perceived violations) and making fun of people on a open access website is professional?   "Shes Saluting.  Hes picking his nose" is a professional comment?  I fail to see where this conforms to CAP Core Values and I also fail to see any result except the humiliation of the individuals for the enjoyment of the poster.  Yes, inappropriate.  Where is the standard "praise in public, correct in private".  If they were posting on this site, I might feel less strongly but they are not posting here.

Do you call cadets up in front of your squadron and critique their use of makeup in front of everyone?

Agree on the "nose picking" comment.   Prior to that however, I see no real issues with conduct nor with the identification of obvious uniform violations. 

Given that these were published photos, do you think it's OK to allow them to pass by without comment?  If I were a cadet or new member and saw the photo of the Lt Col in her uniform what prevents me from believing this is acceptable?  After all, she is a Lt Col and certainly must know more than the average member, right?  The fact is that it's a failure to lead by example and the uniform wear does not meet the regulations nor does it meet of core value of excellence.     

[DakRadz]

From Respect On Display:
Indoors, salute
officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to
receive an award).

She looks to be receiving an award/promotion to me; if not, she is definitely reporting, so-

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

And if that doesn't cover it-
When in doubt, salute. Anyone may render a salute at any time if
they believe one is warranted.
~~~~
If I believe the hobo I meet in San Diego really did earn that MOH he's carrying around, I can very well salute him.
(Made up story for example)

Here's the Respect On Display linkage.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf

EDIT: Could someone please post the link shortener thing, so that the link which is stretching this page can be fixed? I never saved it; I know the long link wasn't done maliciously, but I can hardly read the posts now.

[Eclipse]

tinyurl.com

[PHall]

Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

If the Base Commander allows CAP to wear the beret, then it's legal.

[RVT]

Agree on the "nose picking" comment.

I could have said "this is an example of an improperly rendered salute where his hand is aligned with his nose instead of his eyebrow" I just abbreviated it.  Didn't really expect that sort of reaction.

[lordmonar]

PHall,

It is not up to the base commander.

To the rest.....I think we need to lock this.

There is a reason why we stopped doing "bad uniform photos" threads.....we can trash them all day long, and the problem will not get fixed.

When we encounter bad uniforms in person with people under our command or within our influicne (i.e. peer to peer) we should take a stand and make corrections.

But on the web.....on CT....the violators who may or may not be wrong are not here to receive the feed back, the PAO who posted the photos is not here to receive the feed back.

So.....let's just lock this thread an move on.

[Larry Mangum]

Agreed

[Bluelakes 13]

Major Harris,

I disagree about locking this thread.  I think threads that point out uniform or C&C infrasctions are very useful.  As a PAO, I challenge myself to identify the infraction, if not blatant.  Many even post the regs to substantiate their remarks.  Again, very useful.

But locking a thread because of the use of colorful adjectives and adverbs is a disservise, I believe.  If we keep it civil, this can be a learning tool for all, and content for our presentations.

[spacecommand]

The boonie hat is unauthorized for the BDU's correct?  I know it is (blue version) for the BBDU thats it.

I think that's the second time I've seen it this month on a BDU.

I do agree that unnecessary comments should not be made, however comments pointing out exactly what the infractions are on published photographs, I don't mind.  I think it actually helps to clearly demonstrate what's wrong (without the snarly remarks), and if you see something over and over again being done incorrectly, then it needs to be addressed and clarified. 

[Eclipse]

The boonie hat is unauthorized for the BDU's correct?  I know it is (blue version) for the BBDU thats it.

Correct.

[Bluelakes 13]

And one of the PAO's I look up to just published a region newsletter with photos of SM's wearing the boonie hat in BDU's.  And in the field without a safety vest.

ARGGHHHH!

[lordmonar]

Major Harris,

I disagree about locking this thread.  I think threads that point out uniform or C&C infrasctions are very useful.  As a PAO, I challenge myself to identify the infraction, if not blatant.  Many even post the regs to substantiate their remarks.  Again, very useful.

But locking a thread because of the use of colorful adjectives and adverbs is a disservise, I believe.  If we keep it civil, this can be a learning tool for all, and content for our presentations.

If it was simply done in the spirit of "This is how to post photos and these are some common errors".  I would agree with you.

But all too often (as we see here) it turns into name calling or poor joke on the people in the photos.
One one level it is not their fault that they are out of regulations.  Someone told them to wear their uniforms that way, or allowed them to continue to wear it that way. 

Yes...yes....RTFM!  But let's face it....not everyone has the time or inclination to do so.  And if someone does what they think is right (or actively/purposely violates the reg) and no one corrects them then they will continue to do so.

I look in the regs today and just learned that 90% of CAP is out of 39-1 in respect to the ball cap.
In BDU only the camo ball cap is authorised.....and yet here we are years and years into CAP and we never see a camo ball call....but we see 10000 other types. Since no one at national or any other level has done anything to correct us....then we must be right?

But back to the subject of "examples of bad uniforms on the web".  In the long run they don't really help.
By all means surf the web find bad and good examples and make a power point presentation and pass it to you your PAOs.  I am all for that.  But not on CapTalk please.

[A.Member]

Major Harris,

I disagree about locking this thread.  I think threads that point out uniform or C&C infrasctions are very useful.  As a PAO, I challenge myself to identify the infraction, if not blatant.  Many even post the regs to substantiate their remarks.  Again, very useful.

But locking a thread because of the use of colorful adjectives and adverbs is a disservise, I believe.  If we keep it civil, this can be a learning tool for all, and content for our presentations.

If it was simply done in the spirit of "This is how to post photos and these are some common errors".  I would agree with you.

But all too often (as we see here) it turns into name calling or poor joke on the people in the photos.
One one level it is not their fault that they are out of regulations.  Someone told them to wear their uniforms that way, or allowed them to continue to wear it that way. 

Yes...yes....RTFM!  But let's face it....not everyone has the time or inclination to do so.  And if someone does what they think is right (or actively/purposely violates the reg) and no one corrects them then they will continue to do so.

I look in the regs today and just learned that 90% of CAP is out of 39-1 in respect to the ball cap.
In BDU only the camo ball cap is authorised.....and yet here we are years and years into CAP and we never see a camo ball call....but we see 10000 other types. Since no one at national or any other level has done anything to correct us....then we must be right?

But back to the subject of "examples of bad uniforms on the web".  In the long run they don't really help.
By all means surf the web find bad and good examples and make a power point presentation and pass it to you your PAOs.  I am all for that.  But not on CapTalk please.

I don't know.   Perhaps someone will recognize the offender(s) and be so good as to help them correct the issue.  It raises awareness and I don't see that as a bad thing at all.  Apparently, one person in this thread knows the offending Lt. Col...

[DBlair]

The patch above the name tag is an IC badge

Well that's not where you wear it on the BDU's.  She needs to make a choice - GBD or IC.

All of these and the myriad other issues should be fixed on the spot - that's one of the reasons we have national activities
is to bring standardization and correction to people in situations like these.

When I went (back in the 90s when it was still NGSAR), upon arrival, everyone (staff and students) was required to remove any improper patches or that had not been authorized Nationally, which included wing-specific activity patches, etc. While it was upsetting to some not being able to show off their past involvement, it did present a consistent uniform standard. Seems things have been quite a bit more lax in recent years.

[BillB]

Years and years ago, Southeast Region appointed Assistant IGs to basically be uniform police. They would vistit squadrons and make up lists of improper uniforms and presented the list the the Squadron Commander. They did not confront members in improper uniforms. The system worked well in getting Commanders to correct members uniforms. It made Commanders more aware of 39-1. When the program folded at Region level, several SER Wings continued the practive for a few years more.
At the 1974 SER Encampment at Eglin AFB, with over 300 cadets, and 30 Seniors attending only 6 uniform violations were found in both blues and fatigue uniforms.

[lordmonar]

The thing is....that is what commanders should be doing anyways.

Group and wing should be holding squadrons to the standard and regional and nation should be holding wings to the standards.

It is happening 90% of the time.....but it is the 10% that ends up on face book and makes us look silly.

National is not holding the worst offenders to the fire and that makes it harder for the rest of us to keep up the standards.

This is one of those top down inititives.

National has got to get CAWG and PAWG (the worst offenders) into line.....and then they need to keep their national activities in line (NESA issues out of reg T-shirts to all their participants and allows their students and staff to be out of regs).

That makes it easier for us at the squadron and wing level to get our ducks into a row.

It is the same old argument.

[SarDragon]

Bill, I think things were simpler back then. I don't think we could even get an IG team like that to even reach a consensus on how to enforce the mish-mash of rules in force today. Remind yourself about the discussions on here and CS, and then imagine an IG team. I see chaos.

[Eclipse]

Bill, I think things were simpler back then. I don't think we could even get an IG team like that to even reach a consensus on how to enforce the mish-mash of rules in force today. Remind yourself about the discussions on here and CS, and then imagine an IG team. I see chaos.

I don't agree on two fronts, first, the regs aren't really a mish-mash, the majority of the approved items have been substantially the same for a decade.

Second, in almost all cases, we're not talking about a situation involving a micrometer, an ICL, or a controversial, incorrectly implemented
board decision, we're talking about clear violations of bright-line items.

It is happening 90% of the time.....but it is the 10% that ends up on face book and makes us look silly.

I believe this is a perfect storm of members who are both poorly educated on our uniforms regs, and/or not inclined to consider CAP's image when they post something that is "kewl".

We all know that these issues have been a challenge for CAP since day...well...probably 2...but it's only recently that we can literally see them in real time on a national scale.

[Short Field]

I don't know.   Perhaps someone will recognize the offender(s) and be so good as to help them correct the issue.  It raises awareness and I don't see that as a bad thing at all. 

Of course you are right.  We need to be posting more photos of senior members and cadets so we can poke fun at them and maybe someone will recognize them and be so good as to help them correct the issue... Right. 

[HGjunkie]

I don't know.   Perhaps someone will recognize the offender(s) and be so good as to help them correct the issue.  It raises awareness and I don't see that as a bad thing at all. 

Of course you are right.  We need to be posting more photos of senior members and cadets so we can poke fun at them and maybe someone will recognize them and be so good as to help them correct the issue... Right.

Yep, makes perfect sense...  *facepalm*.

[DakRadz]

Just send all offenders to the Honor Guard Academy staff.

HGjunkie, think that would solve the problems?

[HGjunkie]

Just send all offenders to the Honor Guard Academy staff.

HGjunkie, think that would solve the problems?

Oh, I think it would do more than that- If you are a white hat, then you would be given 5 minutes to correct the problem. but since we weren't wearing bdu's, hard to tell how upset they would be over an incorrect uniform. It PROBABLY wouldn't be pretty though...

[DakRadz]

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

I'll just leave this here 

Yeah, definitely not pretty. I haven't even been, but I've heard enough to know. ^_^  I would soo love to see HGA inspecting all other NCSAs run by CAP. THAT would be worth filming and selling DVDs of to provide funding for HGA, eh? :clap: :angel:

[BillB]

Dave
I think it would be possible at the Wing level. Call them Compliance Officers.  They would just visit a Squadron (unannounced) and just stand back and watch. They would make up a list of uniform violations, or unauthorized patches, etc. and turn the list in to the Commander. They would take no corrective action, leaving that up to the Commander. I'd suggest a wekend training activity for Compliance Officers to make sure all were on the same page, and all understood 39-1. For Wings with Groups, the Group Commander might appoint Compliance Officers, but they would still need to attend the weekend training. I'd almost bet that most Compliance Officers would be former cadets.

[Eclipse]

We already have Commanders charged with that duty, we don't need a secret police from higher HQ.

What you're describing is one of the reasons Groups exist.

[Tim Medeiros]

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

Be advised, this site is not for the CAP National Honor Guard Academy.

[HGjunkie]

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

Be advised, this site is not for the CAP National Honor Guard Academy.

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

I'll just leave this here 

Yeah, definitely not pretty. I haven't even been, but I've heard enough to know. ^_^  I would soo love to see HGA inspecting all other NCSAs run by CAP. THAT would be worth filming and selling DVDs of to provide funding for HGA, eh? :clap: :angel:

Sorry Dak, but here's the CAP HGA sites;
http://www.caphga.org/
http://www.ncsas.com/index.cfm/honor_guard_academy?show=career_fair&careerFairID=6

[Bluelakes 13]

National has got to get CAWG and PAWG (the worst offenders) into line.....and then they need to keep their national activities in line (NESA issues out of reg T-shirts to all their participants and allows their students and staff to be out of regs).

What's wrong with the NESA T-shirt?

[tsrup]

Eclipse nailed it on the head in the first page:

You tell them in a direct, professional, and private manner.

extra emphasis mine.

This is nothing short of humiliating people without their knowledge.  There is no educational value from this thread that cannot be gained by simply reading 39-1.

Someone has a uniform violation?  Fine, there are ways to deal with it.  Like professionals.  Like what was quoted above.


Praise publicly, Reprimand Privately.

That is all.

[lordmonar]

Billb,

Why do we need a special officer to do that?

Every officer should be doing it all the time.

If everyone just did their job then we would be okay.

But it has to start at NHQ.  NHQ has to fix all the gray and contradictory information in the regs.  Then they have to enfoce those regs on the regions and wings.

I take care of my squadron and put pressure on my peers in other squadrons to do the same.

[Mustang]

National has got to get CAWG and PAWG (the worst offenders) into line.....

With all their orange hats, patches, etc, I can see PAWG....but how do you figure CAWG is one of the worst?  That certainly wasn't my experience in 8 years with that wing.  There are pockets of rogue behavior (e.g., embroidered flight suit nametags) but on the whole, uniform wear standards were very high.

p.s., I love "bad uniform threads"...hours of entertainment!

[SarDragon]

[AlphaSigOU]

Ain't gonna be long now... 

[N Harmon]

What's wrong with the NESA T-shirt?

Going by the letter of the regulation, the NESA t-shirt can not be worn with the BDU...

12	Undergarments	Mandatory. All appropriate underwear will be worn.
	(Undershirts)	Brown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION: members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck. Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5 inches in diameter.

...because of the logo on the back of the shirt.

Apparently the BBDUs do not have this limitation?

[DakRadz]

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

Be advised, this site is not for the CAP National Honor Guard Academy.

http://www.nationalhonorguardacademy.com/

I'll just leave this here 

Yeah, definitely not pretty. I haven't even been, but I've heard enough to know. ^_^  I would soo love to see HGA inspecting all other NCSAs run by CAP. THAT would be worth filming and selling DVDs of to provide funding for HGA, eh? :clap: :angel:

Sorry Dak, but here's the CAP HGA sites;
http://www.caphga.org/
http://www.ncsas.com/index.cfm/honor_guard_academy?show=career_fair&careerFairID=6

Since the thread is going out the window anyway...


Oh, I've already looked through those. I just wanted to share what popped up on my Google search for HGA.

Thank you Maj Medeiros for pointing that out, forgot to mention.

Now, I really, really, REALLY want to go to HGA. Though it may not be possible..