If you are too fat for the blues then you are too fat for BDU's!

[JohnKachenmeister]

(Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation). 

BS

Well said, El-Tee!

[Lorick]

This is a real problem, both for individuals and for CAP.  Many join, feeling part of the benefit is ability to wear the USAF uniform.

The art of volunteer leadership, IMHO, is maximizing each member obtaining THEIR goals from membership while insuring CAP mission accomplishment.  Each Commander MUST insure that each of their members joining understand their obligations as well as eligibility related to wear of the USAF style uniform. 

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.  I don't care that the same member can ELT DF IMC to with 0.1 minute Lat/Long, and has 6 distress finds - the military member doesn't know that.  What he knows is that the CAP member is making the Military uniform look bad.  It is the CAP Unit Commander's responsibility to recognize and resolve the issue.

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

That said (and I partially repeat others' notes):
(1) Integrity requires compliance with CAP 39-1, including Attachment 1 and grooming, if wearing ANY USAF uniform (includes BDU's - thou shall NOT quibble).
(2) SM's should be the role models for cadets - Integrity counts.  If you don't meet grooming, height/weight or not willing to keep USAF uniform looking sharp, wear a CAP distinctive uniform.  If you think cadets don't notice, think again.
(3) Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.
(4) For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention worse than requiring Integrity in all we do and (b) Cadet Program Officers in particular would be at a disadvantage (how does one inspect something they can't wear?).  (NB: I was a bit appalled at someone's implication that we should let members slide on 39-1 due to concern about retention.  Integrity is not negotiable.)
(5) A previous National Commander installed scales at a National Board meeting entrance.  He only had to do it once.  While this is legitimate, hopefully a Commander can be more subtle and resort to this method only after in-private counseling fails.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

LtCol Lorick Fox, CAP
C/LtCol, ret (1973)
PA Wing, GP4/CV
NER-PA-005

[arajca]

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

Unfortunately, many who do wear the AF uniform believe the CAP distinctive uniform is a second class, not-quite-good-enough uniform.

That said (and I partially repeat others' notes):
(1) Integrity requires compliance with CAP 39-1, including Attachment 1 and grooming, if wearing ANY USAF uniform (includes BDU's - thou shall NOT quibble). No arguement here
(2) SM's should be the role models for cadets - Integrity counts.  If you don't meet grooming, height/weight or not willing to keep USAF uniform looking sharp, wear a CAP distinctive uniform.  If you think cadets don't notice, think again.What uniform you are wearing doesn't matter - you should wear any of them properly and sharply, not just the AF uniforms.
(3) Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.
(4) For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention worse than requiring Integrity in all we do and (b) Cadet Program Officers in particular would be at a disadvantage (how does one inspect something they can't wear?).  (NB: I was a bit appalled at someone's implication that we should let members slide on 39-1 due to concern about retention.  Integrity is not negotiable.) How can I inspect a cadet uniform if I don't wear it? Real easy. RTFM. Male cadets don't wear female uniforms, so they cannot inspect female cadets? Or vis-versa? I don't have to wear the AF uniform to know if some cadet (or senior) is wearing it wrong. That is another attitude making the CAP distinctive uniforms "second class" uniforms.
(5) A previous National Commander installed scales at a National Board meeting entrance.  He only had to do it once.  While this is legitimate, hopefully a Commander can be more subtle and resort to this method only after in-private counseling fails.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

My comments in italics

[RiverAux]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.

Keep in mind that even our official height/weight standards are 10% above a standard not even used by the AF anymore, so a CAP member in an AF style uniform could be entirely legal as far as our regulations are concerned and still be seen as "fat" by military members expecting an even higher standard.  Especially those in the AF who are used to having to meet requirements for waist size. 

I would also contend that fat CAP members are always going to start off with a respect deficit when they come in contact with the military no matter what uniform they're wearing.  Do you think that they're going to have much respect for the abilities of a 350 pound CAP member in a blue BDU either when they first see them?

Fat CAP members will always make the organization look bad whether they're wearing military style uniforms, CAP distinctive uniforms, or the golf shirt (bulging bellies are quite obvious in them too, if you haven't noticed).  We aren't hiding the fat people by not letting them wear AF style uniforms. 

So, if you believe this issue is important your only logical policy recommendation would be to have height/weight standards that you have to meet to stay in the organization. 

Personally, I don't believe this issue is that critical and there is no need to go to that extreme. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility.  I don't care that the same member can ELT DF IMC to with 0.1 minute Lat/Long, and has 6 distress finds - the military member doesn't know that.  What he knows is that the CAP member is making the Military uniform look bad.

Agreed, to a point.  I've seen a fair number of older AF people, both officer and NCO, who look portly in their uniforms.

Wear of CAP Distinctive is NOT a "second class" uniform.  I know a retired USAF MG who wears little else.  It is the responsibility of the Commander to insure that this is the perception in their unit, as well as the reality.

Agreed.  I just don't see why some are so zealous that for it to be "distinctive," it has to be grey.

Having joined in 1965, I have seen multiple episodes of CAP about to lose the privilege of wearing the USAF style uniform due to outside height weight, grooming, etc.   This is VERY, VERY real.  As many will remember, USAF wanted to give us to the US Army at one point as well.

I joined in 1993 during the horrible "berry boards" era.  That was all of CAP getting punished for the misdeeds of a few who thought they were actually Curtis LeMay.  I don't remember being given to the Army mentioned, but I remember John McCain wanting to disband us entirely or give us to DOT.

For those who wish to argue that all CAP SM's should switch to CAP Distinctive, I can only tell you that (a) reality is that it would hurt retention...

Agreed, sir, but I also know quite a few, especially in senior squadrons, who aren't very concerned with wearing a uniform at all.

The preceding represents my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of any other person nor Command.

Seconded.

[PHall]

Every time a Reserve or Active Duty member sees a CAP member outside height/weight/grooming, wearing a USAF style uniform, CAP loses credibility. LtCol Lorick Fox, CAP
C/LtCol, ret (1973)
PA Wing, GP4/CV
NER-PA-005

And 99% of Air Force personnel never come into contact with a CAP member in uniform.

Can't lose much credibility if they don't even know you exist.

[Lorick]

No real issue with any comments (reasonable people may disagree ), except about "99% of USAF" not having contact - flatly not so.

You would be amazed the number of USAF personnel who are (or at least feel they are) VERY acquainted with CAP.  Unfortunately, not generally favorably.
I spent most of the last 8 years in Egypt supporting the Peace Vector (F-16) program there (at PV-IV-GSC).  Very small number of USAF people (almost random selection of ground and air crew), but only a VERY few didn't have definite opinion about CAP, mostly based on appearance/behavior.

I also admit I am prejudiced from years in VAWG where we had constant contact at Langley AFB, Utah Wing at Hill, and then at RMR and SWR HQ. which obviously had more frequent contact with USAF personnel.

I would add that one of my proudest moments was at a Summer Encampment at Quantico MCAS when the Master Gunnery Sergeant who was Liaison for our host unit (to whom I had been VERY clear that his personnel were NOT required to salute CAP officers) walked up, saluted and said "Major, your Seniors look like officers and act like officers so I have instructed my personnel to treat them as officers, if that's alright with you, Sir".  I am not in the habit of arguing with Master Gunny's and I certainly didn't start then.

I will add that I knew a CAP Group Commander who didn't meet CAP height weight, but was an active USAF officer - so could NOT wear CAP Blues but could wear USAF blues!.

[RVT]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

[SarDragon]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

Because we do get outside SQ HQ into the field once in a while, and having a utility uniform available makes the job a little easier. Not all the field work we do requires the GT uniform. Think encampments, comm exercises, etc.

[billford1]

I wear the BBDU to Sarex's where there's usually a good turn out for GT training. I know people who wear the BDU and no other AF uniform. When there's a SAR mission I consider it lucky when  GT folks show up. If there's the guy who is GT Qualified, is clean shaven, a little heavy set and wears the BDU there's no way I want anyone to question his uniform eligibility because he's not trim enough. If we tell the guy he can no longer wear "that uniform" his response is likely to be "Good Bye". I would like it if others wore the same uniform as me when we're on CAP Business but honestly I'm just glad when they've showed up. If we're not being watched by RM folks who really care about how we look then perhaps it's good to just leave things alone so we can just do the job if we get one as long as the uniform is worn correctly as needed for an AFAM. In two different States I've seen occasions when there's someone who shouldn't have worn the BDU to the AF graded Sarex but I've yet to hear AF Evaluators make mention of it.

[Krapenhoeffer]

You know that there are many people who are sick of the "it's the mission that counts, so 39-1 doesn't matter." Except that it does. It does not take very long to ensure that one is in the correct uniform for the job. If you do not meet weight/grooming standards, and you wear the BDUs, you are in violation of one of the core values.

One does not need BDUs to do GSAR. BBDUs and polos with gray Dickies work wonders. Regulations are regulations, and EVERY member of CAP swore to follow them when they joined.

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore, I feel that the regs should be more lenient regarding BDUs, but that's just my opinion, and until the regs get changed (if they get changed), we have to follow the guidelines set forth by regulation.

[Eclipse]

Frankly all CAP senior members should be wearing blue utility/flight suits anyways to aid in better organizational differentiation

Actually I'm having a hard time coming up with any reason why a senior needs a BDU uniform for anything at all in California.  Of either type.

Seriously? What do you think Senior members are supposed to be doing?  Just aircrew and staff jobs?

[Eclipse]

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore,

The USAF and Navy still wear the BDU's.

[PHall]

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore,

The USAF and Navy still wear the BDU's.

Not for long, the wear out date for the USAF is in 15 months.

[Eclipse]

Its not worth arguing about, but the constant assertion that "no one" is wearing BDU's anymore contradicts my Mark I eyeballs.

Are they phasing out?  Yes.  Gone? Hardly.  In fact my NEX actually brought them back after having them off the racks for a few months, and that's despite the official wear approval of the NWU.

And considering that the BDU phase out and the CAP "no change moratorium" almost coincide, they best course is to simply wait and see.
Including any assumed reasonable sundown, CAP will be in camo for at least the next 3-4 years, which for anyone reasonably active is the lifespan of a set of BDUs (whether you grow out of them or wear them out), and 3-4 years is longer than some members stay in.

A lot of people will join and leave before ever seeing anything but camo BDU's.

[billford1]

You know that there are many people who are sick of the "it's the mission that counts, so 39-1 doesn't matter." Except that it does. It does not take very long to ensure that one is in the correct uniform for the job. If you do not meet weight/grooming standards, and you wear the BDUs, you are in violation of one of the core values.

One does not need BDUs to do GSAR. BBDUs and polos with gray Dickies work wonders. Regulations are regulations, and EVERY member of CAP swore to follow them when they joined.

Now personally, seeing that only CAP (and the Public Health Service) use BDUs anymore, I feel that the regs should be more lenient regarding BDUs, but that's just my opinion, and until the regs get changed (if they get changed), we have to follow the guidelines set forth by regulation.

1. The Mission Counts. 2. CAPM39-1 Definitely does matter. I agree that the uniform should be worn correctly. 3. It is my opinion that enforcement of strict AF weight standards for wear of the BDU is a bit too arbitrary. The BDU should be acceptable for all All. 3. It is not established that to work an AFAM there is a requirement for correct wear of the selected CAP uniform be it BBDU, BDU or other CAP uniform?  4. When you speak of ensuring the correct uniform for the job do you mean that the Team should all wear the same uniform? I prefer it that way. For most Missions the Polo is my uniform of choice.  At the end of the day as a GTL my goal is that everyone aboard be equipped in such a way that there would be no denial of coverage under FECA for any of them.

[ol'fido]

Let's see...
1. You've decided that fat people are stupid, lazy, and sloppy and can't be trusted to wear a uniform that is appropriate or fits or not where one if called for. In other threads, it's been said that fat people should just go away so that everybody will appear to be orderly, proficient, and military.

2. That unless someone follows every regulation, rule, policy, etc. to the letter 24/7, then they are completely without integrity, shouldn't be leaders, and are just all around duds and incompetents.

3. Anything else that they have done or accomplished no matter how selfless, helpful, or meritorious is negated by 1 and 2.

That is what this thread is saying to me.


Well, if you think that then... Phhhhhhhhht!!!

[GaryJSO]

Ignoring obvious weight issues still happens even in the "regular" USAF.  Check out the link for a photo of the AMC 4-star at a the 18AF change of command ceremony Aug 09.

http://www.618tacc.amc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/090819-F-2393F-031.jpg

The only thing more incredible than a 4-star being this far out of standard, is the PAO having the bad judgement to post the photo on www.af.mil.

[tarheel gumby]

That ain't right, but it is something that is all to common. I have seen Airmen that outweigh me and I am not within the weight standards. I get a little annoyed when I read the rants against those of us that are not the most slender and fit. When is common sense going to be used with this issue. There is a uniform that when properly worn looks very professional, use it and quit making us look bad, the AF dose a good enough job of that. I don't think that I have seen very many AF personnel that meet the standard recently..... I have seen a large number that are waay out of the standard. The point that I want to make is, If you don't meet the standard don't wear any AF style uniform. We are supposed to play by the rules, to not do so hurts our image. I should also add that I work in the hospitalty industry and see a wide range of people. The Marines and Army have the least problem that I have seen.

[Short Field]

The only thing more incredible than a 4-star being this far out of standard, is the PAO having the bad judgement to post the photo on www.af.mil.

How do you know he is out of standards?  You are just judging his weight and deciding he is out of standard based on a photo.  Do you know how he scored on the Air Force Fitness Program (aerobic (running), body-composition, push-ups, and crunches)?  The AF does not use a body fat or maximum weight standard now once people are out of initial training.