Active Duty/Service Academy

Started by CAP428, November 15, 2006, 12:00:43 AM

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CAP428

I've been searching through CAPM 39-1, but can't find any specific references to the following other than it says that no variations/additions to the manual are authorized but I don't know if this applies.

Can CAP members [Officers and cadets] who are in the Air Force or attend USAFA wear their Air Force/USAFA uniforms while participating at CAP meetings, events, etc.?  Or are they strictly limited to CAP uniforms only?

MIKE

Mike Johnston

CAP428

I don't see where it says anything about Air Force or USAFA uniforms, just "Wearing the CAP Uniform".

Psicorp

Quote from: CAP428 on November 15, 2006, 12:13:45 AM
I don't see where it says anything about Air Force or USAFA uniforms, just "Wearing the CAP Uniform".


And therein lies your answer.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

MIKE

You asked:

Quote from: CAP428 on November 15, 2006, 12:00:43 AM
Can CAP members [Officers and cadets] who are in the Air Force or attend USAFA wear their Air Force/USAFA uniforms while participating at CAP meetings, events, etc.?  Or are they strictly limited to CAP uniforms only?

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.participating in or conducting the cadet program

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

Note that both are marked Wear.
Mike Johnston

Chris Jacobs

That is saying that you wear your CAP uniform, whether it is corporate or air force style.  That table talks nothing about the war of a USAF or USAFA uniform for active duty personnel.  He is asking about the wear of a USAF uniform with the words Air Force instead of Civil Air Patrol on it.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

MIKE

If you are participating as a CAP member you will wear a CAP uniform.
Mike Johnston

Psicorp

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on November 15, 2006, 12:47:19 AM
That is saying that you wear your CAP uniform, whether it is corporate or air force style.  That table talks nothing about the war of a USAF or USAFA uniform for active duty personnel.  He is asking about the wear of a USAF uniform with the words Air Force instead of Civil Air Patrol on it.

Which you cannot do if you are attending a CAP activity (including meetings) as a CAP member.  You can wear an Active Duty uniform if you are attending an activity (including meetings) in an official Active Duty capacity (giving a presentation on something military, for example).  However you are not covered by CPPT and must have CPPT trained Senior Members (in CAP uniform) present when around Cadets.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

lordmonar

Well...unless you are working with cadets.....you don't "have to" wear a uniform to meetings.  You SHOULD but you don't have to.  You have to wear uniforms at a mission base, flying in CAP aircraft, flying in Personal Aircraft on CAP missions...but at a standard meeting....it is not 100% got to wear.

With all that said....if you are in a rush for some reason and do not have time to change and there were no cadet involved...I would not sweat it.  If you are in a cadet squadron or composite squadron...now it get's dicey.  Once in a while....well maybe (I admit I have worn my USAF uniform to meeting...but the were the EXCEPTION not the rule.)

Bottom line is....when you are at the meeting, who are you representing?  If a cadet looks at you do they see a CAP officer/cadet or do they see an USAFA student.

Avoid the confusion and wear the proper uniform.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

That's about right. You're legally attending as an AF member, not a CAP member if you are in AF uniform. If you are in CAP uniform you are a CAP member, and if you are in no uniform then you aren't covered by anyone's insurance - therein lies the issue. I'm highly tolerant of this, especialy with on/near base Sqs, but enocurage them to do the right thing when possible.

CAP428

#10
It's not about me.  I saw another squadron's Officer wearing one, just wondered if that was "regulation."

DNall

#11
Quote from: CAP428 on November 15, 2006, 03:57:20 PM
It's not about me.  I saw another squadron's Office wearing one, just wondered if that was "regulation."
The whole office? j/k! It's no big deal. Of course we highly encourage cadets back from any service academy, on leave from active service, or even from college ROTC to visit in uniform. Sqs on/near bases are also very highly tolerant of folks coming from work or whatever. There really are two times when it is an issue. First, you need to make sure the member actually has a CAP uniform & that's what they wear at activities/missions. And second, that if you're putting on a uniform from scratch (guard/reserve/retired) that should be a CAP uniform rather than military. Otherwise it's not that big a deal, least as long as you keep the lawyers out of it.

CAP428

 :D ha.  Yes, the WHOLE office.  :o

Noted, and corrected.   Thank you.

DNall

Oh and by the way, with regard to covered by CPPT, I don't know what was mean there, but that's wrong. CAP may not be able to count you as adult supervision when not in correct CAP uniform, but CPPT is valid no matter what you're wearing. Frankly it provides no protection to members. It is training you are required to have so that if something happens on your watch in violation of that policy that CAP can point to you & say you should have known better & they aren't responsible. IE- you are responsible for criminal civil liability & they are not. It doesn't have anything to do with what you are wearing.

lordmonar

Quote from: DNall on November 16, 2006, 12:46:04 AM
Oh and by the way, with regard to covered by CPPT, I don't know what was mean there, but that's wrong. CAP may not be able to count you as adult supervision when not in correct CAP uniform, but CPPT is valid no matter what you're wearing. Frankly it provides no protection to members. It is training you are required to have so that if something happens on your watch in violation of that policy that CAP can point to you & say you should have known better & they aren't responsible. IE- you are responsible for criminal civil liability & they are not. It doesn't have anything to do with what you are wearing.

I think was he was trying to say was that CAPR 52-16 says (or used to before this last change, I have not read it cover to cover yet) you should be in uniform when working with cadets.

ALL CAP Officers must have CPPT training before they are given unrestricted access to cadets.

And you ARE covered under CAP liability under normal circumstances even if you are not in uniform....the exceptions are on missions, flying in CAP Aircraft and a few other random situations.

Otherwise you would not be covered during encampment when asleep, in the shower, etc...but I nit pick.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Psicorp

#15
Quote from: DNall on November 15, 2006, 02:25:20 PM
That's about right. You're legally attending as an AF member, not a CAP member if you are in AF uniform. If you are in CAP uniform you are a CAP member, and if you are in no uniform then you aren't covered by anyone's insurance - therein lies the issue. I'm highly tolerant of this, especialy with on/near base Sqs, but enocurage them to do the right thing when possible.

Maybe I misinterpreted it, but according to CAPR 52-10 (CPPT):

"Activity instructors. At times, non-CAP adults are invited to participate in activities where CAP youth are involved.
For example, a unit may ask a certified first aid instructor to teach our youth, or a unit may invite an Air Force recruiter to share with our youth the benefits of joining the Air Force, or an activity may seek individuals to assist with the activity. Non-CAP adults
can be present with our CAP youth as long as there is a CAP senior member physically present with the non-CAP adult at all times. The CAP senior member must currently be in FBI "approved" status."


So if you're not a CAP member when in an AF (or other Service) uniform, then that would seem to apply, correct?  I only meant "covered by CPPT" in that if you don't fall under the guidelines listed in CAPR 52-10, then it is required that a senior member who does also be present when around cadets. 

I won't make any claims of legal training and will leave the interpretation of what constitutes "criminal and civil liability" to those who's last name is "Esquire".

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

DNall

You are a CAP member regardless of being or not being in CAP uniform. If you are in AF uniform & acting on behalf of the AF, that does not negate the fact that you have CPPT training. You could debate if such a person could be counted as "CAP adult supervision" since they are not acting on behalf of CAP, but it doesn't negate anything. Plus as I said, the training doesn't do anything but transfer liability from CAP to members when you know better & a policy violation happens on your watch. That would be equally true in AF uniform regardless of how CAP interprets the internal policy.

You are covered by CAP liability protections when acting on behalf of CAP in strict accordance with regulations, and at NO other time. As such, you are covered when wearing PTs at night at encampment when that is the specified uniform, you are NOT covered if you come to a meeting in civvies & break your leg in the parking lot - though CAP may or may not be liable for that on property they control. By the way, this is part of why some people have asked for a note in the reg specifying what can be considered an "official" PT uniform, so you can then call it an actual uniform for legal purposes.

shorning

The long and short of it is, from a CAP perspective, that wearing an Air Force/military uniform to a CAP meeting, it's the same as wearing civilian clothes.

DNall

roger that, for CAP's legal perspective.