What would you want to do with CAP uniforms?

[MajorChuck]

You can't fly missions with out pilots.

And you can't fly if you can't fit in the airplane.  As a practical matter, you also limit the useful load, especially on a 172, to the point that you may lose a scanner.  That negatively impacts the mission. 

But we also have more missions than just flying.  We have the cadet program - officers have an obligation to lead by example. 
 

So....here we are....do we stand up hard weight standards so everyone can be USAF and accept that we WILL have squadrons close and run the risk of failing at our three missions....or do we accept the fact that we need to have corporate uniforms (just not 18 different versions  ) and keep these good people, man our squadrons and accomplish our mission.

YMMV

I agree,

AF uniforms for those who meet W/G standards and want to wear them.
a streamlined set of  Corprate Uniforms for those who do not.
Frankly, I don't understand why every time uniforms are discussed,the weight issue and how CAP would be better off if all the "fat Guys" would eather shape up or get out keeps
comming up.

1. I don't give a rats six if I EVER wear a Uniform. I didn't join this organization to wear a uniform or to try to  fool anyone that I'm in the Air Force! I was Recruted because I had a
skill that was sorely needed at the time.

95% of the time I wear the polo combo and wear the aviator shirt combo when necessary.Why, see#1.

If I believed it was in CAP best interest I would resign Today. IM STILL HERE.

[Hawk200]

...because corporate-style is NOT allowed to be worn in any less degree of perfection than the AF version (the 300lbs guy in a white aviator should be wearing garters).

I see this point and I have one question: How do you instill the same sense of pride in the corporate uniform as in the military uniforms?

I'm not being a smartass here, I would like to hear some legitimate ideas. I have tried to get people to take pride in whatever uniform they are wearing, but I honestly have no idea how to do it.

[DNall]

See I don't know that I have an answer for that. Maybe you can get away with being sloppy in the civilian world, assuming you have no ambition, but you can spot a sharp vetran by the way he wears a business suit. I see a lot of people toss on corporate style uniforms thinking they aren't held to the same standards, that's not the case & I'd like to encourage the culture to make that clear with members. You can't get people to take pride in uniforms though if they don't take pride in themselves, and if they don't feel an obligation to represent everything about the guy standing next to them w/o ever opening their months. The truth is the majority of people that see a CAP member, that's probably the only thing they will ever know about CAP & they'll judge the organization & everyone in it by that one view of one person's uniform.

I mentioned earlier the case of a family at mission base placing their trust in CAP to bring home thier loved ones. If they're looking around at people in golf shirts & slacks, not to mention untucked golf shirts, sloppy uniforms, & people that don't exactly carry themselves like they can take charge of the world... what confidence does that inspire? Perception is reality to the people seeing it. We are to others what they think we are based on teh image we present. We can choose to be lazy & be looked at as incompetent, or we can choose to create the illusion of a command presence & people will think we're AF trained experts in our field & nothing can stand against us - that may not be true, but you can sure use it to your advantage. All that's very certainly true of the public, but don't think it doesn't carry major wait with people in the AF too. It's basic human nature & everyone will respond to it whether they like it or not.

[AlphaSigOU]

I see this point and I have one question: How do you instill the same sense of pride in the corporate uniform as in the military uniforms?

I'm not being a smartass here, I would like to hear some legitimate ideas. I have tried to get people to take pride in whatever uniform they are wearing, but I honestly have no idea how to do it.

Probably one of the best ways to instill pride in uniform wear: put up a sign in the restroom over the mirror:

TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF... YOU'RE SOMEONE'S IMPRESSION OF CIVIL AIR PATROL!

Whether they take it to heart or not is up to the members.

I would also start a regular schedule of uniform wear classes to introduce new members and remind older members about the proper way to wear the uniform (both AF style and corporate). You'll be surprised to see some who will say 'I thought someone told me this was the correct way?'

As the admin and personnel officer of my squadron, it's my unofficial duty to gently correct my fellow members who may be wearing the uniform and/or insignia wrong. And they usually get it fixed.

[Hawk200]

Probably one of the best ways to instill pride in uniform wear: put up a sign in the restroom over the mirror:

TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF... YOU'RE SOMEONE'S IMPRESSION OF CIVIL AIR PATROL!

Whether they take it to heart or not is up to the members.

I would also start a regular schedule of uniform wear classes to introduce new members and remind older members about the proper way to wear the uniform (both AF style and corporate). You'll be surprised to see some who will say 'I thought someone told me this was the correct way?'

As the admin and personnel officer of my squadron, it's my unofficial duty to gently correct my fellow members who may be wearing the uniform and/or insignia wrong. And they usually get it fixed.

I like the sign idea, but I think I'm going to take it a little further, put up a couple of mirrors with those signs on it.

And I really like the idea of regular classes. Shouldn't take much to do that.

I'm also a personnel officer, and one thing that I can't seem to get across is that the uniform is sacred. That there are men and women who have died in that uniform, and continue to do so. I think that if some of the folks understood that, my job woulkd be a lot easier.

[Psicorp]

...because corporate-style is NOT allowed to be worn in any less degree of perfection than the AF version (the 300lbs guy in a white aviator should be wearing garters).

I see this point and I have one question: How do you instill the same sense of pride in the corporate uniform as in the military uniforms?

I'm not being a smartass here, I would like to hear some legitimate ideas. I have tried to get people to take pride in whatever uniform they are wearing, but I honestly have no idea how to do it.

It amazes me that some things which ought to be common sense are just lost on some folks.  I can't think of any place that doesn't frown on sloppiness in uniform...whether is a Burger King uniform or the Presidential Honor Guard's.   

The proper application of a Clue-By-Four (show the regs, demonstrate, and insist) should do the trick.   It's not so much that neatness should be a recruiting tool, it's that your appearance will be considered evidence of how you do your job.  Profession appearance = professional service in the eyes of most.  And besides...if you can't take pride in looking professional, what can you take pride in??

But then again...there are those who couldn't get a clue if they smeared clue-musk all over themselves and walked onto a field full of clues during clue mating season.

[davedove]

I see this point and I have one question: How do you instill the same sense of pride in the corporate uniform as in the military uniforms?

I'm not being a smartass here, I would like to hear some legitimate ideas. I have tried to get people to take pride in whatever uniform they are wearing, but I honestly have no idea how to do it.

The very first thing to be done to instill pride in the uniform in others is to practice what we preach.  Whatever uniform one of us chooses to wear, wear it as well as you can (even the polo shirt).

Make sure both you and the uniform are neat.  Pay attention to grooming.  I'm not saying that you have to meet AF standards, but be neat, wash and trim your hair (facial hair included).  Do you best to make sure your uniform is ironed and looking good, and all uniform items are proper.

In other words, lead by example.  You won't reach everyone, but you'll reach some, and they will in turn reach others.

[Hawk200]

It amazes me that some things which ought to be common sense are just lost on some folks.  I can't think of any place that doesn't frown on sloppiness in uniform...whether is a Burger King uniform or the Presidential Honor Guard's.

I work at a place that requires a "uniform". It's their hat and shirt, but my pants, belt, shoes. There is a standard on the pant's (or shorts) that there can't be any cargo pockets, and all pockets have to be internal pockets. In other words, the patch pockets like on the back of most jeans aren't appropriate.

However, we have some people that wear shorts with the wrong pockets, and nothing is done about it. We have a guy that weighs about 400 pounds that has seams ripped out on the sides of his pants (which is a nauseating sight), and the manager does nothing about it. A lot of corporate America doesn't understand the concept of "uniform".

So there are places that simply tolerate, or don't even acknowledge pure sloppiness. When you think about it, where are our new people coming from?

[Hawk200]

I see this point and I have one question: How do you instill the same sense of pride in the corporate uniform as in the military uniforms?

I'm not being a smartass here, I would like to hear some legitimate ideas. I have tried to get people to take pride in whatever uniform they are wearing, but I honestly have no idea how to do it.

The very first thing to be done to instill pride in the uniform in others is to practice what we preach.  Whatever uniform one of us chooses to wear, wear it as well as you can (even the polo shirt).

Make sure both you and the uniform are neat.  Pay attention to grooming.  I'm not saying that you have to meet AF standards, but be neat, wash and trim your hair (facial hair included).  Do you best to make sure your uniform is ironed and looking good, and all uniform items are proper.

In other words, lead by example.  You won't reach everyone, but you'll reach some, and they will in turn reach others.

That's pretty much my standard operating method. It amazes me that, at times, our peer pressure culture doesn't respond to peer pressure.

And it can be difficult when you don't have regular exposure to some people to be the example. Some folks only show up once a month. And lately, I haven't spent much time around cadets. And probably won't be doing so in the future.

[DNall]

  I especially like "clue-by-four," that just became part of my repitoire. The couple mirrors w/ that msg is a good idea. Those little 6x9 or whatever ones at walmart are like 3 bucks or something last ime I checked & laminating is cheap. The real issue is with the show-tell-enforce method, people tend not to enforce. That's for sure not how it works in the AF. If you show up for work there w/o a well pressed shirt, EVERYONE will say something, not just the boss, it's everyone's job before their regular job, just like safety.

Appearance = perception of competence (human nature even if they say they don't judge)

Pride in appearance = pride in self (you start to believe ^^ ur own hype & make it a reality) = esprit de corps = respect from above = trust = bigger time missions & gear (compexity & sensitivity).

These are cardinal rules of human nature that cannot be changed regardless of what an individual on any side of it might want.

Co-workers in the civilian world will tend to not speak up to a peer about appearance/attire issues, cause they are meek. The military tries to inspire boldness & leadership that do to a degree cross-over to culturally correcting peers. In the business world though you will tend to find the guy with a squared away appearance advancing much faster than that 400lbs buldging out the pants guy, cause that same human nature sub-conscious dynamic is at work.

No question you set the example, but that's not enough, you are required to enforce the culture & regs on everyone else.

[Major Carrales]

My brother worked at an Automobile Dealership as a technician (he works at a different one now.)

He began his day with his uniform clean and presentable.  And, while he was soiled by the toils of his shop stall...he maintained an almost professional auroa.

Other members of that team were consistantly sloppy...using thier uniforms as "rags" and going untucked...no belt...less than safe shoes and the like.  And these men are paid.

Its a sign of the times.  There are many that consider wearing a shirt that buttons a burden.  All day with tee-shirts, shorts and flip-flops.  CAP too has those that follow that "dress down" paradigm.

I findit hard to understand why men of 40 and 50 years ago went to ball games, even in the south, in hats, ties and shirts while people today are wearing what that group woudl have considered underwear.

There is an element of that that is filtered into CAP.

[DNall]

Something like this then? (chairforce.com)


or this


just avoid this


I'm wearing sandles right now, and a sweater w/ jeans, though it's usually a polo or t-shirt. I like being comfortable. When I put on a uniform, that's the light swtich truning on. I recognize the effort to create that appearance as a part of the process to earn my worthiness to serve. No one proves they are good enough or have some skill we owe you for, screw that. You owe your country service & owe respect & sacrifice to those who came before you & sacrificed (be that in war w/ the mil or just the generations of CAP past). If you want to be lazy & look like ass, I'd prefer you not be part of CAP, no matter what you bring to the table.

[floridacyclist]

As indicated earlier, it's more than that.  It's also serving as an example for our cadets.

Side note: I've noticed that a number of particpants on this site have these little figures in their signatures.  These figures really do look like many of our members - round.  Kind of ironic...or maybe not?    

I agree on setting the example for our cadets as a lean mean ES machine, but that is still an ideal to strive toward, not a prerequisite to join.

One of the most impressive members I've known was a paraplegic whose legs were useless....he walked on two metal crutches that clipped on to his arms. He was overweight, possibly due to the enforced immobility, but he was fit enough to drag himself out to the comm shack every Thurs night and was more than willing to spend time with any cadet teaching them the finer points of net operation. It would have been a shame to lose him to some regulation requiring that we be as perfect as a the professional military.

[floridacyclist]

Truth is...I am just happy they are there.  That they took some time from their busy lives to give to their CAP unit.  UOD is precarious considering there are so many combos out there (and not everyone owns them all) that it might exclude them.

Now...which of you has a solution to these problems?

We have UODs at our Squadron: 1st meeting of the month is PT for cadets and Golf shirt for seniors. 2nd meeting is Blues or aviator combos for all since we have promotion boards. 3rd and 4th meetings are BDUs since we have ES training usually. Any months with 5th Thursdays is Open House and we ask that members wear a variety of uniforms so that folks can see the range. Cadets without uniforms are asked to wear white t-shirt/sweatshirt with bluejeans and seniors are encouraged to obtain a polo shirt as soon as possible which can be worn at any of the above meetings if they do not have the appropriate uniform.

Cut the choices back to a corporate and AF-style uniform for each need:
Basic Blues = whites/greys (I know a lot of in-shape seniors who like this one, especially non-vets)
Class A = Blazer combo
BDU = BBDU
Green flightsuit = Blue flightsuit
For those without uniforms, White shirt and jeans for cadets, and Polo Shirt combo for seniors. Seniors would be asked to wear the proper uniform if they have it rather than ducking out and grabbing the polo.
Grey epaulets for everything. They look OK and are just different enough to not look like we're impersonating the AF.

As for changes to be made, I definitely vote for navy Blue nametapes. Don't completely subdue all our patches (that would look like we're trying to play military), just tone them down a little.

Grey BDU pants allowed with polo for mission base/UDF ops. I have thought of that in order to have an extra semi-field-worthy uniform available for longer deployments, most of which do not involve any heavy bushwhacking. It would definitely be a lot more comfortable for sitting in a truck for 4 days. i often wear my dickies for this, but miss the extra pockets when I need them.

Flouresecent orange boonie/baseball hat and vest required for GT/FLM (with chin tied) operations, not for "garrison duties". Other flourescent colors allowed per Wing King (green would be better for states with lots of fall colors).

No-shine boots optional with BDUs. BBDUS retain black boots (brown would look dumb with blue)

Too late to do it, but I would replace BBDUs with solid OD. Khaki looks too much like desert fatigues or DMAT, and BBDUs look like SWAT or Paramedics, plus some DMATs wear them as well. Regular field gear would go better with OD too instead of us buying black MOLLE gear. Anything that we do with camo BDUs/ACUs would look OK with OD.

Am sure I'll think of more by the time I become the King.

[ELTHunter]

Oh my God, he mentioned Class A's.  Can we NOT have that discussion all over again

[MIKE]

OMG He mentioned class A's, ban him now!