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November 17, 2018, 11:10:37 AM
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CAP Talk  |  Recent Posts
CAP Talk  |  Recent Posts
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 21 
 on: Yesterday at 05:32:20 AM 
Started by Holding Pattern - Last post by Spaceman3750
When you are putting together your ORM for GTM training, how are you working knife safety into your risk management continuum for seniors and cadets?
Not an ORM factor.   Use the guidance from the GTM training guide for GT gear and move on.

Remember, knives are sharp and pointy and people (especially young minimally trained cadets) are stupid. Hence the following mishap statement from SIRS:

Quote
WHILE PARTICIPATING IN GROUND TEAM TRAINING AT THEIR SQUADRON, A CADET WAS HOLDING A COLD BOTTLE OF WATER TO RELIEVE A BURN THEY HAD SUSTAINED. ANOTHER CADET ACCIDENTALLY CUT THE INJURED CADETS FINGER WITH A MULIT-TOOL KNIFE WHILE TRYING TO CUT THE WATER BOTTLE IN THE INJURED CADETS HAND. NEITHER INJURY WAS REPORTED TO THE SAFETY OFFICER OR ANY OTHER SENIOR MEMBER AT THE TIME OF OCCURRENCE A SENIOR MEMBER WAS PRESENT WHEN THE INJURIES WERE SUSTAINED, BUT DID NOT OBSERVE WHEN THEY OCCURRED. THE INJURIES WERE REPORTED BY THE CADETS INVOLVED WHEN THEIR EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE BLEEDING WERE UNSUCCESSFUL. FIRST AID WAS IMMEDIATELY PERFORMED BY SAFETY OFFICER WHO WAS ALSO THE SQUADRONS HEALTH SERVICES OFFICER. THE SQUADRON COMMANDER WAS NOTIFIED AND WAS PRESENT WHILE FIRST AID WAS BEING RENDERED. THE INJURED CADETS GRANDMOTHER WAS NOTIFIED DUE TO THE CADETS PARENTS BEING UNREACHABLE. PARENTS WERE MADE AWARE AS SOON AS THEY WERE AVAILABLE.

You don't necessarily have to make knife safety a part of your ORM every time, but situational awareness and not horsing around should be in your safety brief.

As for the above statement, I still haven't found anything stating how the cadet's hand got burned, but this statement has provided safety education topics for our squadron for about 3 months now.

This mishap sounds less like ineffectiveness in a safety briefing or ORM and more like ineffectiveness of supervision and potentially poor selection of ground team member candidates.

I’m a huge fan of the idea that nobody cares more about your safety than you do (“OSHA? Ocean.”) I even emphasized it in a safety briefing just this weekend. But that doesn’t remove the need for supervision to be effective. A core tenant of my day job is that prevention will always fail eventually, so we need to be in a position to detect when that happens and respond to the situation, ideally before damage is done. It’s equally important in safety.

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 22 
 on: Yesterday at 05:21:47 AM 
Started by Eclipse - Last post by Mitchell 1969
Sounds like you were in a renegade unit if you saw them worn in CAP in 1980 and beyond.

Yup. Macomb Group III, the MI Wing group with the squadrons ranked 1, 2 & 3 in the nation one year. Bunch of renegades.

What I suspect happened is that this cadet found an Ike jacket that fit her at a surplus store and wore that instead of her Detroit Lions jacket when it got cold. "I mean, its Air Force, its blue, whats wrong with this?"

I'm not saying it was right, and I'm 100% sure (as are you) that it was way, way beyond authorized (I have a copy of the 39-1 from that time frame. Nope, not authorized). But I sure did see it.

I will have to see if one of my buddies from her squadron has any pics.

That explanation makes sense, now that the context is clearer. The first post led me to believe that cadets were wearing Ike jackets in the 1980’s as part of the uniform, with badges, patches etc.

The second post clarifies that they were worn as a FORMER uniform item, morphing into what had become a civilian item used to keep the chill off cold cadets in the absence of a uniform coat. I’m assuming that the insignia had been removed.

I saw something similar in 1967. The former uniform item informally known as the “Jungle Jim” (a khaki bush jacket), once devoid of insignia, became a popular motorcycle jacket for cadets who wore them with the silver tan 1505 uniform. Once the jacket was in and the helmet replaced the uniform cap, the effect was a kid on a motorcycle  wearing tan clothes. Once at the meeting the jacket came off, helmet came off, flight cap or service cap went on and that was it.


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 23 
 on: Yesterday at 05:17:31 AM 
Started by Holding Pattern - Last post by Spaceman3750
If I felt it was necessary to include knives during a deliberate ORM:

Risk: Injury during use of knives.
Likelihood: Low
Impact: Moderate
Risk Severity: Low
Risk control: Supervision
Symptoms of (in)effectiveness: (Presence)Lack of knife injuries.

Most local training I run has no need for any use of knives, so it’s not something I normally worry about too much. As long as supervisors are effectively monitoring their people, most of the time knife issues will be prevented by detecting that a knife is being used when it is unnecessary.

If knives were a major issue we’d be bandaging 5 people every time a group opened their MREs. So far I haven’t seen that happen.

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 24 
 on: Yesterday at 01:41:06 AM 
Started by Holding Pattern - Last post by Live2Learn

CAP is not SERE school, and if the ORM for cold weather is being followed, no one should >EVER< be that cold in a CAP context.

Operative word 'should' is always a red flag.  To consider only what 'should' (i.e. be expected with a high degree of certainty) occur strikes me as a recipe for bad outcomes.  Effective ORM must consider a more realistic spectrum of hazards, risks, and outcomes than merely what 'should' occur.  Why do we consider, then practice engine out EPs?  After all, with our large investments in maintenance what's the point?  You mean to say that weather is always 100% as forecast, or that unexpected exigencies never occur when CAP takes to the field? 

Quote
CAP members are adolescents and adults, if they can't be trusted with a pocket knife, they don't belong out there to start with.

How does this relate to ORM?  Of course CAP members can be 'trusted'.  However, considering risks, hazards, and outcomes in an ORM may suggest some additional training might be advisable so members are equipped with appropriate skills.  Of course, if we just paperwhip the ORM then our analysis might not exceed checking a box. 

 25 
 on: November 15, 2018, 10:49:25 PM 
Started by darkmatter - Last post by Pace
This has been unlocked per request.

 26 
 on: November 15, 2018, 10:00:04 PM 
Started by Cadet Officer - Last post by Cadet Officer
Thank you for everyone, I was able to find the info and share with those needing it

 27 
 on: November 15, 2018, 09:24:48 PM 
Started by OldGuy - Last post by SCoontsFan
Not trying to argue, but my brother, who is a 21 year, senior engineer and exec at Boeing says differently.  As does an old friend of mine who, until three months ago, worked for 25 years at Boeing writing those manuals.

 28 
 on: November 15, 2018, 09:16:57 PM 
Started by supertigerCH - Last post by jeders
While this topic has certainly generated some valuable discussion, but at this point we are circling 'round and 'round with nothing new being added. If anyone has something of value to add, let a mod know and we'll consider it.


 29 
 on: November 15, 2018, 07:45:03 PM 
Started by supertigerCH - Last post by Eclipse
Then I must agree with you. She would not pass the FBI check.

Still, what is her name?

One of here many alias' is "Elsa".

 30 
 on: November 15, 2018, 05:51:33 PM 
Started by supertigerCH - Last post by Luis R. Ramos
Then I must agree with you. She would not pass the FBI check.

Still, what is her name?


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