CAP Talk

Can the cadets go play paint ball in lieu of squadron meeting march 2009 there are 5 Tuesdays and I wonder can we take the kids to play paintball or is that against regulations?

Not as a squadron activity you can't.

When I was a cadet we went paint balling 3-4 times a year as squadron activities.

Sadly, times have changed.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16, Page 7
c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

For those of us on the conservative side of the house, the "um...we all just happened to show up hear at the same time..." argument doesn't fly, either.

^Second.

 While there are units out there that bend the rules for this sort of thing (and a unit or two that has group pics in uniform from paintball matches hanging up at their HQ), it's a bad idea.

I am neither condoning or condemning the practice.  Just curious what regulation or guideline this sort of activity is covered under.  I know the cadet programs reg, just don't remember paintball in it.

Nevermind.  Found it.

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

Yes, um, as I quoted 3 ticks above... ???

Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2008, 03:27:21 PM
Yes, um, as I quoted 3 ticks above... ???

I just got home from work at 3am and was tired.  Missed your post.  Don't you dare give me a frowny face!  :)

We've done "Squadron" paintballing before- we just did it on weekend, and made it VERY clear that it was an optional Non-CAP event  (similar to taking a bunch of cadets bowling or to the movies).  No one wore uniforms (they would have been sent home if they had), and no one used titles.  We also had several parents, relatives and siblings come out and play as well- it made for a really fun day.

If you want to do it, I don't see why you can't do it as an optional, non-CAP "bonding" event.  Just don't do it in place of a meeting.

In NH, we have an outdoor laser tag outfit that, IMHO, is way more fun that paintball and way cheaper.

Took my unit there back in September. I was expecting to be rather "ho-hum" and I wound up having an absolute blast.

Quote from: winterg on December 13, 2008, 09:44:47 AM

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

Talk about your overly broad and conflicting reg!   My immediate thought when I saw this was "OK, so all  Ground Team members need to lose their knife"... 

Taken to the extreme..... I can see some overzealous Reg-inator outlawing tent stakes, stake hammers, shovels, screwdrivers, etc, etc... 


At any rate, most units that I've seen do paintball do it exclusive of CAP.   However, I did hear a rumor that one Group or Wing (or higher?) Commander said something along the lines of, "If CAP members organized it, and it was announced at a CAP meeting or through CAP channels, and it was open primarily to CAP members, it's a CAP event" and put a kabosh on it.   I don't recall who or where anymore.

..Just sayin'...  :D

Why can't they all go as "friends?" If the cadets show up in the woods without uniforms or senior members then they are technically no different from any other kid.

They are having a friendly get together with their buddies.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 13, 2008, 06:14:55 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 13, 2008, 09:44:47 AM

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

Talk about your overly broad and conflicting reg!   My immediate thought when I saw this was "OK, so all  Ground Team members need to lose their knife"... 

Taken to the extreme..... I can see some overzealous Reg-inator outlawing tent stakes, stake hammers, shovels, screwdrivers, etc, etc... 


At any rate, most units that I've seen do paintball do it exclusive of CAP.   However, I did hear a rumor that one Group or Wing (or higher?) Commander said something along the lines of, "If CAP members organized it, and it was announced at a CAP meeting or through CAP channels, and it was open primarily to CAP members, it's a CAP event" and put a kabosh on it.   I don't recall who or where anymore.

..Just sayin'...  :D

How would you reword that regulation?

Quote from: mprokosch11 on December 14, 2008, 12:45:10 AM
Why can't they all go as "friends?" If the cadets show up in the woods without uniforms or senior members then they are technically no different from any other kid.

They are having a friendly get together with their buddies.

Because they can't.  How is there even a question in your mind that this would in any way be in the same realm as a good idea?  Ok so back in '76 you could, but you can't now.  I am totally on the side of the wing king that says if you do this as an open invitation at a meeting with the specific intent of CAP members and friend/family attending you are then sactioning this event.

Any way your word it, try to get around it, whatever you are still openly and very clearly breaking the regs.  And in case you haven't gotten word, when you choose to violate the regs any reprocussions of that come back on the commander at that specific level.  If this means that a cadet gets hurt, or naughty woodland encouters happen, or whatever you have essentially written off CAP and assumed liability personally.  These regs are not there to stop people from having a good time, they are put in place to prevent uncomfortable, unnecessary conversations.  And believe it or not a lot of this is 20-20 hindsight or fallout from some other knucklehead that chose poorly in the past.

Any correlation to CAP with list-serv's, phone chains, annoucements, mailings, etc make this a CAP bullet point item and do not make it ok.

Quote from: mprokosch11 on December 14, 2008, 12:45:10 AM
Why can't they all go as "friends?" If the cadets show up in the woods without uniforms or senior members then they are technically no different from any other kid.

They are having a friendly get together with their buddies.

I wouldn't have a problem with it.  As the reg's state at any cadet activity.  If they are not in CAP uniform and not meeting under the CAP name, it's not a cadet activity.

If several of the cadets go to the same school and are in some of the same classes, do you consider school a cadet activity?  No, of course not.

Once we take our uniform off and put on civilian clothes, like you said, we're just like any other citizen.  Whereas, if you are in the military, that's another story.  You're in the military 24/7.  CAP isn't the same.

along the same lines dont cadets get the chance to use the weaponers as well.  That would be illegal according to the regs as well but it is done.

Quote from: hatentx on December 14, 2008, 07:34:20 AM
along the same lines dont cadets get the chance to use the weaponers as well.  That would be illegal according to the regs as well but it is done.

Oh, heck, cadets get opportunities to do things like shoot M-16s and M-249s.. Nobody's saying that properly handled firearms on a range with appropriately rated instructors is a bad thing.

Way back when I'd first gotten out of the Army I was driving up the main drag in my home town enroute someplace with my girlfriend, and I look over near my high school and standing on the street corner is one of my cadets, in his CAP fatigues (we'd not switched to BDUs yet) with one of our basic training cadets, and in his hand is a pair of nunchucks. 

You can imagine the string of unprintables out of my mouth as I whipped the car around one of the boulevard turns and came screaming back in the opposite direction back to that intersection.  I pull up to the street corner, roll the passenger side window down, and say "Excuse me, Airman Koufalis..."  It was funny watching this kid suddenly realize what was going on and trying to "hide" the nunchucks...

Turns out that there had been color guard practice or something that day, and he was waiting with this kid from basic training (who'd come along to check out the color guard) for his mom to pick them up.  The "why are you carrying nunchucks?" question was followed by a set of reactions that I would best describe as "What nunchucks?  Oh, wait, where did these two sticks connected by a short length of chain come from?  Aliens must have teleported those into my hands when I wasn't looking.."

The counseling statement delivered the following Tuesday was classic, too.

Quote from: JThemann on December 14, 2008, 03:25:06 AM

How would you reword that regulation?

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that is normally used as a weapon at any cadet activity with the exception of those items permitted to be carried by a Ground Team member or as otherwise permitted by regulation.


How's that?

Back in the day (a Wednesday by the way) it would be impossible for me to participate in any activity outside of CAP and not consider it a CAP activity.  Out of all my friends growing up after the age of 13, only 1 was not in CAP.  From movies to surfing, it was "just a bunch of guys who happened to be in CAP, getting together and do [insert activity, even paintball, here]. 

Just so happens I have never played paintball, nor do I have any intentions in starting.  Not against it, but to me, for cadets, CAP is the extra curricular activity.  It would be like a paintball team going out and playing basketball.  But that's just me.  If I were a CC or DCC, the only time I'd be concerned is if they showed up to some paintball activity calling themesleves "TEAM CAP", in the CAP uniforms and showing their CAP ID as their form of identification.

Quote from: Stonewall on December 14, 2008, 03:26:43 PM
Back in the day (a Wednesday by the way) it would be impossible for me to participate in any activity outside of CAP and not consider it a CAP activity.  Out of all my friends growing up after the age of 13, only 1 was not in CAP.  From movies to surfing, it was "just a bunch of guys who happened to be in CAP, getting together and do [insert activity, even paintball, here]. 

Just so happens I have never played paintball, nor do I have any intentions in starting.  Not against it, but to me, for cadets, CAP is the extra curricular activity.  It would be like a paintball team going out and playing basketball.  But that's just me.  If I were a CC or DCC, the only time I'd be concerned is if they showed up to some paintball activity calling themesleves "TEAM CAP", in the CAP uniforms and showing their CAP ID as their form of identification.

I tend to agree with Kirt on this one. A lot of my cadets hung out doing stuff together on non meeting nights as half of them went to the same school and that's how they got recruited. As long as they did not wear their uniforms we were safe. We even went on trips but not as CAP.

I think you can do many things as long as it is not a CAP activity.

I agree too.  I've gone paint balling and airsofting one some of my friends from CAP.  Did we say this was a CAP activity?  No.  Did any Senior Members or other cadets care?  No.  If someone higher in the chain of command tries to get said cadets introuble for going paintballing, and they did not associate themeselves to CAP, than that person is wrong.  CAP is a volunteer program.  It can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

Quote from: SWASH on December 14, 2008, 07:53:44 PMIt can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

Actually it can - there are any number of activities and behaviors which will get you terminated or disciplined whether you are in uniform or not.

This conversation is going the same way all the paintball conversations go - the conservative leaders arguing its simply not a good idea, and others arguing "you can't tell me what to do...". 

And in the end, everyone's going to do what they feel like anyway, chips falling wear they may.  Not much point to it...

Quote from: Eclipse on December 14, 2008, 07:57:03 PM

Quote from: SWASH on December 14, 2008, 07:53:44 PMIt can not say what you can and can not do on your own free ti me with your friends.

Actually it can - there are any number of activities and behaviors which will get you terminated or disciplined whether you are in uniform or not.

Yeah, but most of those are either illegal or immoral, and paintball (which, I will point out, is a recognized sport, a game) does not apply to either of those.

CAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

I see no issue with cadets (or SMs, for that matter) getting together and playing paintball or airsoft or any other sport, as long as there are no uniforms and everyone understands that it is just a bunch of friends getting together.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

you can only if you want your wing IG knocking down your door and writing you up.

Quote from: messofficer on December 14, 2008, 11:18:51 PM
you can only if you want your wing IG knocking down your door and writing you up.

Writing you up for paintabll, or illegal activity?

illegal activity using CAP resources.

So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

Be careful with this one, especially if you are a senior member dealing with cadets.  If cadets gather for a non CAP activity with other cadets or seniors gather for a non cap activity with other seniors, as friends there's NO problem.   HOWEVER, once you add a senior member into the mix with cadets, YOU as the senior member are TAKING A RISK.  Personally, I think it is odd for senior members to hang around with cadets (not with their parents/guardians present) at other than CAP activities, especially if this "friendship" was established because of their participation in CAP.     BTW How may middle school or high school teachers do you know who hang around with their students after the school day ends/or school sponsored activity ends?  The same principal idea applies.  Minimize your risk exposure.  There are some of us in CAP who also feel that these type of senior with cadet unofficial activities puts the CAP corporation at risk for potential litigation IF something goes astray.  I personally would like to see something placed in the Cadet Protection Regulation/Briefing which specifically discourages this type of activity.  
RM      

QuoteCAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 15, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

I think in my very humble opinion that common sense should apply at all times. When I was in FLWG I was not much older than my cadets, that did present some challenges. I got through them because I used some common sense and the regs as a guide. My reasoning is that the regs are there for a reason. If there is a possibility of trouble DON'T do it.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on December 15, 2008, 12:26:14 AM
Be careful with this one, especially if you are a senior member dealing with cadets.  If cadets gather for a non CAP activity with other cadets or seniors gather for a non cap activity with other seniors, as friends there's NO problem.   HOWEVER, once you add a senior member into the mix with cadets, YOU as the senior member are TAKING A RISK.  Personally, I think it is odd for senior members to hang around with cadets (not with their parents/guardians present) at other than CAP activities, especially if this "friendship" was established because of their participation in CAP.     BTW How may middle school or high school teachers do you know who hang around with their students after the school day ends/or school sponsored activity ends?  The same principal idea applies.  Minimize your risk exposure.  There are some of us in CAP who also feel that these type of senior with cadet unofficial activities puts the CAP corporation at risk for potential litigation IF something goes astray.  I personally would like to see something placed in the Cadet Protection Regulation/Briefing which specifically discourages this type of activity.  
RM      

QuoteCAP is a volunteer organization, and just about everyone has a life outside of the few hours per week that we donate to CAP. It is not at all unusual for cadets to become friends outside of CAP. Just because two people are members of CAP does not mean that every time they meet it is a CAP activity.

CAP does not have the right to control my, or anyone else's lives when we are not in that uniform, or acting in that capacity.

If someone were to get picky, parents of cadets that just happen to be senior members, would get in trouble along that same line. For example, Cadet Smith has been friends Cadets Long and Johns (made up names, made up situation BTW) since before they could fit into BDUs. Cadet Smith's father, we'll call him Daddy Smith, who just happens to be Lt Col Daddy Smith on Thursday nights for a few hours and a couple weekends a year, takes these three friends/Cadets out to go paintballing. To make things more interesting, they end spend the night at the Smith house with no other adults that are in CAP (with parental permission, not in writing). 

Another twist could be what if the adult in this situation is not genetically or legally related to any of the members. Say a family friend who has been taking these kids paintballing since they 10 years old (once again pre-CAP) who just happens to be a senior member in CAP.

What would happen if this was an actual CAP activity? Stuff would be flying...IG involvement, Wing CC getting involved, people getting fired, possibly 2B-ed, and possibly CPPT and CAPR 52-16 getting rewritten, added to, etc. Short answer: CHAOS! If you take the grade away from in front of these names, what happens? Nothing. A parent would not get into trouble over this, nor would a family friend or other trusted adult. It happens all the time, LEGALLY mind you, outside the proverbial bubble that is CAP.

Now, take this into consideration. An Active Duty AF Captain joins CAP and decides to go through the normal promotion methods (SM->2d Lt->1st Lt->Capt)( :o weird I know).  There are active duty AF enlisted members who are in the unit and most of them out rank him in CAP and a few are his supervisors in the chain of command (CAP-wise of course). The AF Capt disagrees with his CAP supervisor's (who is a SrA in the AF) decision on something and decides to issue an order to him as an AF Capt to a AF SrA overturning the decision. <sarcasm>Both the AF IG and CAP IG would love this case.</sarcasm> Should this be allowed? No, it's called a conflict of interest. When you step into the CAP bubble, you are wearing your CAP hat and grade. When you step out of CAP bubble, you wear whatever hat and grade you normally wear. In this case, they would wear AF Capt and AF SrA hats normally (both on and off duty).

Now apply that same principle to the first situation. IMHO, if you are at a CAP activity or wearing a CAP uniform, paintball would NOT be allowed for Cadets. However, if it is a bunch of friends (Cadet and Senior Members alike), not wearing a CAP uniform and this is NOT at a CAP activity, then I would say GO FOR IT! Enjoy the game and don't tell anyone that it was a CAP activity, especially CAP members. >:D >:D

In the above paragraphs all situations are hypothetical...meaning made up.

(Now give me some time to run for cover :D)

Quote from: Eclipse on December 15, 2008, 12:43:55 AM

Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 15, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

Not quite.  The real story is written right at the very end of the 52-16 entry on this topic.  It says if it is not authorized by CAP regs but it is by BSA rules then we have to get a specific insurance rider for that activity through the BSA.

So really it comes down to whether or not the BSA will insure the activity.

Raising hypothetical arguments like those above just muddies an already difficult discussion.

There are plenty of mines in the field when you decide to do something CAP would prefer you don't do, whether it "legal" or not, without having to drag in nonsense like convoluted chain-of-command problems.

The only time these things are an issue is when something "bad" or "exciting" happens, whether the ramifications stay internal to CAP, or result in much more real-world "unpleasantness" than you bargained for, would be up to the same judges in this country that allow old women to sue restaurants because coffee is "too hot".

The majority of leaders in the Cadet Program do not have children participating, therefore their only connection to the cadets is through CAP, and thus difficult to seperate, especially for commanders.

I value my service in CAP and the amazing opportunities it affords me, as well as the chance it affords me to bring and grow these opportunities for others.  I also value my family's financial security, and count on the protection CAP at least purports to offer me when things get "bad" or "exciting" (that and the $1m blanket liability policy I carry).

Neither of the above is worth risking for something silly like paintball with cadets.

You guys can make all the "free-will", and "I know better arguments" you want, but I know for a fact that if I play paintball only with my personal friends and family outside of CAP, or at least only with senior members, I'll never have to sit in an IG hearing room explaining how it was "actually ok", nor explain to my family that we have to move because I got sued when Cadet Bago lost an eye and CAP Inc., disavowed me, but I was found liable anyway because I was his commander.

Those of you on the "free-will" train cannot make that statement with certainty, and we all know of situations where members were disciplined and terminated for much less.

For me personally, as a commander, it would also call into question the decision-making ability of those members who would decide they know better. 

Cadets will be cadets, and without a senior member present, it would be very difficult to make the case that it was a CAP activity (assuming that no CAP resources like unit meetings, COV's, email lists, etc. were used), but seniors need to steer clear of this. Period.

Quote from: IceNine on December 15, 2008, 05:10:43 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on December 15, 2008, 12:43:55 AM

Quote from: Sqn72DO on December 15, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
So to throw a wrench in the well oiled machine, what about squadron's that are dual chartered as Venture Scouting organizations?  I don't know all of their policies but if you want to announce this type of activity that is banned in CAP but is okay in Venturing you would still announce it during a regular meeting.  Besides paintball, this could go along with rappeling and any other nature of "CAP banned activity."

From the CAP perspective, since CAP is considered the "host" of the dual charter, our rules trump theirs, at least in terms of
the CAP Cadets.

Not quite.  The real story is written right at the very end of the 52-16 entry on this topic.  It says if it is not authorized by CAP regs but it is by BSA rules then we have to get a specific insurance rider for that activity through the BSA.

So really it comes down to whether or not the BSA will insure the activity.

I don't agree - if the BSA allows paintball then the Scouts may be able to go off on their own, but the cadets are never going to be allowed to participate as a unit activity.

Quote from: 52-16If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

Quote from: IceNine on December 15, 2008, 05:28:51 AM

Quote from: 52-16If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

Regs?  Like anyone reads those.   :D

Can we end this?


If someone has a problem with whatever it is you might do, someone will investigate, you'll tell your side of the story, and someone will decide what, if anything, should be done about it.

If you are able to convince the Commander/IG/whomever that it was not a CAP activity, then it wasn't.   If you can't, then it was.    We can debate it here until we're blue in the.....fingers -- but even if we get a consensus that it's perfectly fine or another that says it's a no-no, that won't matter if the CC/IG says otherwise.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 15, 2008, 05:21:28 AM
The majority of leaders in the Cadet Program do not have children participating, therefore their only connection to the cadets is through CAP, and thus difficult to seperate, especially for commanders.

That is entirely circumstantial, sir. When I was a cadet, approximately half of the seniors members had children active in the Cadet Program. Those senior members included the Testing Officer, AE Officer and the Squadron Commander. That was a squadron with 30-40 senior members total. Most of the senior members were former cadets and had remained friends throughout adulthood. Most of their children grew up together or were close friends. They all, cadets and senior members, go to activities as a non-CAP group...just as friends/family. In my current unit, the DCC and the Testing Officer have children active in the unit. How can you separate that? By that theory, it would be difficult for the Testing Officer to separate the fact he is grading the test of his own child and at the same time remain entirely independent since he is the Testing Officer and his child is a Cadet. But, in the three squadrons that I have been appart of, the main Testing Officer was a parent of at least two (and in some cases more) cadets.

Everyone's OK with it UNTIL someone gets hurt.  Then, someone causes and investigation and everyone gets in trouble.  That's why the Regs are there, folks!

One thing most people are forgetting is that you're a CAP cadet or senior member anytime your on the roster.  If you are out with friends who happen to be in cap and you do something that is against regs you are BREAKING a reg.

The excuse that its not a "official" even or that "your not in uniform" doesn't work, you volunteered to join and follow the regs. You can not just say well im not a volunteer right now or chose what regs to follow or not.

I was once told if there are 2 or more people from CAP together at any time then it can be considered a CAP event and you MUST follow the regs.  People will always do what they want to however that does not make it correct any way you justify it in your mind!

Quote from: caprr275 on December 17, 2008, 05:47:36 PM
One thing most people are forgetting is that you're a CAP cadet or senior member anytime your on the roster.  If you are out with friends who happen to be in cap and you do something that is against regs you are BREAKING a reg.

Uhhh...no.

With that logic I could never carry a gun.

I could never paintball on my own time or with friends.

etc, etc.

I do think that there is a difference between "grabbing a couple friends and going paintballing" and "the squadron members happening to show up at the paintball range at the same time as everyone else."

Quote from: caprr275 on December 17, 2008, 05:47:36 PM
One thing most people are forgetting is that you're a CAP cadet or senior member anytime your on the roster.  If you are out with friends who happen to be in cap and you do something that is against regs you are BREAKING a reg.

The excuse that its not a "official" even or that "your not in uniform" doesn't work, you volunteered to join and follow the regs. You can not just say well im not a volunteer right now or chose what regs to follow or not.

In a way, what he is saying makes sense in other areas of CAP as well.  "I'm not on duty with CAP so I can do what I want and not get in trouble".  Makes sense.  But if you were not on "duty" with CAP and performed a positive action, let's say you saved a life, you would expect a Life Saving Medal.  Take the bad with the good?

Just spitballin' here.   8)

Quote from: caprr275 on December 17, 2008, 05:47:36 PM
One thing most people are forgetting is that you're a CAP cadet or senior member anytime your on the roster.  If you are out with friends who happen to be in cap and you do something that is against regs you are BREAKING a reg.

The excuse that its not a "official" even or that "your not in uniform" doesn't work, you volunteered to join and follow the regs. You can not just say well im not a volunteer right now or chose what regs to follow or not.

I was once told if there are 2 or more people from CAP together at any time then it can be considered a CAP event and you MUST follow the regs.  People will always do what they want to however that does not make it correct any way you justify it in your mind!

I disagree strongly; while you are always a member while on the MML, you are not always participating in the program.   The regs suggest this in many places -- signing out from a mission, wearing the uniform up to an hour after an activity, etc.  

What makes a CAP event a CAP event is someone in command (or their designee) saying that it is (or, as I mentioned earlier, making it one through actions normally associated with one).  

By your logic, any time 2 or more cadets are in the same classroom at school then it's a CAP activity.   If I recruit 3 co-workers then suddenly my workday becomes a CAP activity (where it wasn't before).    If you are a teacher, and you recruit some of your students, then it's a CAP activity (and since you are then participating in the Cadet program, you need to wear your uniform).   If you are a police officer and work with another CAP member, then you just violated regs by bringing your weapon to a CAP activity.

Obviously, this is not the case.

Just as I am always an employee of my company but am not always at work; so to I am a CAP member but not always acting as one.  

Of course, should I do something illegal while not at a CAP activity, CAP can always hold me accountable for that - but to say that the regs apply when you're not at a CAP activity or acting on behalf of CAP (such as when I do my paperwork) is crazy.   Should the CAP members whose child is a cadet refer to them as "Cadet" at the dinner table?!

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 13, 2008, 06:14:55 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 13, 2008, 09:44:47 AM

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

Talk about your overly broad and conflicting reg!   My immediate thought when I saw this was "OK, so all  Ground Team members need to lose their knife"... 

Taken to the extreme..... I can see some overzealous Reg-inator outlawing tent stakes, stake hammers, shovels, screwdrivers, etc, etc... 

I think that the ES equipment issue isn't an issue on ES missions and exercises because they are not a cadet activity. They are ES activities that cadets are at. The wording is fine.

Quote from: chiles on December 17, 2008, 06:46:28 PM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 13, 2008, 06:14:55 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 13, 2008, 09:44:47 AM

CAPR 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program

     c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity.

Talk about your overly broad and conflicting reg!   My immediate thought when I saw this was "OK, so all  Ground Team members need to lose their knife"... 

Taken to the extreme..... I can see some overzealous Reg-inator outlawing tent stakes, stake hammers, shovels, screwdrivers, etc, etc... 

I think that the ES equipment issue isn't an issue on ES missions and exercises because they are not a cadet activity. They are ES activities that cadets are at. The wording is fine.

So I can't bring a knife to cut my cake at the Christmas party tomorrow? That's a pretty stupidly worded reg. Good intent, very poor implementation.

Have one of the party-goers get lost on the way and then go find them, instant ES mission.  >:D

^

Common sense will prevail.  If it is so specific that it lists the "prohibited items" someone will bring something and say "well it didn't say I could bring a block of C-4 to the meeting..."

Quote from: chiles on December 17, 2008, 06:46:28 PM
I think that the ES equipment issue isn't an issue on ES missions and exercises because they are not a cadet activity. They are ES activities that cadets are at. The wording is fine.

I think I can argue that it's considered a cadet activity for purposes of 52-16.  Here are the subheadings for that section:

Quote from: 52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program.
a. Training in Hot Environments.
b. Mission Activity.
c. Weapons. (the section in question)
d. Parachuting & Ultralight Vehicles.
e. Rappelling.
f. Obstacle/Confidence Courses.
g. Transportation.
h. Respect for Others.

Seems to me that they are equally valid and both apply to the Cadet Safety question... 

Fair point. Not a whole lot about being a CP Officer that's easy, is there.

I disagree. Based on your logic, ANY activity that a cadet is present at would be a cadet activity. ES missions etc, are activites cadets are involved with, not cadet activities.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 17, 2008, 07:15:05 PM

Quote from: chiles on December 17, 2008, 06:46:28 PM
I think that the ES equipment issue isn't an issue on ES missions and exercises because they are not a cadet activity. They are ES activities that cadets are at. The wording is fine.

I think I can argue that it's considered a cadet activity for purposes of 52-16.  Here are the subheadings for that section:

Quote from: 52-161-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program.
a. Training in Hot Environments.
b. Mission Activity.
c. Weapons. (the section in question)
d. Parachuting & Ultralight Vehicles.
e. Rappelling.
f. Obstacle/Confidence Courses.
g. Transportation.
h. Respect for Others.

Seems to me that they are equally valid and both apply to the Cadet Safety question... 

Quote from: arajca on December 17, 2008, 09:56:57 PM
I disagree. Based on your logic, ANY activity that a cadet is present at would be a cadet activity. ES missions etc, are activites cadets are involved with, not cadet activities.

Read what I said again:

Quote from: JoeTomasone on December 17, 2008, 07:15:05 PM
I think I can argue that it's considered a cadet activity for purposes of 52-16. 

Paintball is both a physically good activity and a fun activity.  NHQ needs to look into allowing SQD's to participate in Paintball activities.  HOWEVER......however, until the regulations are changed, don't be a sly fox and try to get around them.  Do the right thing here.  By reading some of you posts, there are some fellow members that need to start sitting in on moral leadership seminars, and reread their oath they took when joining.

JUST DON'T DO IT.  You do it, you may or may or may not get caught, but our Cadets do know how to read, and comprehend things........that means they are comprehending that it is OK to break the rules when you do it in such a way that it turns the situation into a "can't tell if its wrong" situation. 

So we start running around the regulation wording for paintball the next thing we know we have 4 dead Cadets because they all took off in the Squadron built aeroglider helicopter that was assembled with Radioshack parts as part of the Aerospace education mission. 

I may have confused some of you........in short, I am very disappointed in many here that are trying to sculpt scenarios to try to break the rules we agreed to uphold. 

I did not think I would find that here at CAPTALK.   

Not picking on any particular argument but some folks here read the regs in the most restrictive sense possible.  What's that bit in the Constitution about all things not mentioned are OK.  If we follow the logic of some everything is a CAP activity.  I have gone flying not in uniform in a friend's plane from the same airport at the time as a CAP meeting.  Oh and I met this friend through CAP.  Someone going to tell me I should have been in uniform because that was a CAP flight/activity.  Lighten up Francis.

Quote from: Climbnsink on December 18, 2008, 01:07:50 AM
Not picking on any particular argument but some folks here read the regs in the most restrictive sense possible.  What's that bit in the Constitution about all things not mentioned are OK.  If we follow the logic of some everything is a CAP activity.  I have gone flying not in uniform in a friend's plane from the same airport at the time as a CAP meeting.  Oh and I met this friend through CAP.  Someone going to tell me I should have been in uniform because that was a CAP flight/activity.  Lighten up Francis.

Come on now.......common sense.  Respectfully since I don't know you, I don't think the US Constitution has a bearing on the "if its not written its allowed argument in CAP.

WE all have a sense of judgement and can decide what is and what is not a CAP activity.  Having your SQD all show up in civilian clothes at the paintball range the night of the CAP meeting and not signing in is NOT going to get around the regulations good enough.  You will be fired (maybe asked to leave).   

Quote from: Climbnsink on December 18, 2008, 01:07:50 AM
Not picking on any particular argument but some folks here read the regs in the most restrictive sense possible.  What's that bit in the Constitution about all things not mentioned are OK. 

May I suggest a re-read of the Constitution?   Powers not granted through the Constitution are left to the States or to the People. (Amendment X)    Murder, for example, is not mentioned in the Constitution, but it is surely not OK -- State law prohibits it.

Regardless, regulations - like laws - are not always written to precisely capture the author's intent - or simply fail to account for all possible circumstances or new technologies, etc.    We should be prepared to follow the intent or the letter of the regulation based on a common sense interpretation.

With respect to paint ball and the weapons restrictions in 52-16, I do not believe that paint ball would actually be covered -- if you see the intent as preventing injury or accident.   However -- the person judging this is not me -- it's the Commander/IG/whomever -- and you are counting on THEIR interpretation.  They may conclude that paintball poses too much of a risk (paintball in the eye, etc) to be a "safe" cadet activity.    And again, if you ask me, inviting your cadets to play paintball -- especially if done via the Sq. meeting or email list, etc -- is tantamount to making it a CAP activity.  

So if you want to do this, my advice is to go through channels and get the approval of the Wing Commander to either approve it as a CAP activity or to agree that it will NOT be a CAP activity.    That way, you're covered.   If you get turned down, then you have a good idea how an investigation would have gone if it had ever come to that.

^+1 

Quote from: Climbnsink on December 18, 2008, 01:07:50 AM
Not picking on any particular argument but some folks here read the regs in the most restrictive sense possible.  What's that bit in the Constitution about all things not mentioned are OK.  If we follow the logic of some everything is a CAP activity.  I have gone flying not in uniform in a friend's plane from the same airport at the time as a CAP meeting.  Oh and I met this friend through CAP.  Someone going to tell me I should have been in uniform because that was a CAP flight/activity.  Lighten up Francis.

Your logic above fails for at least three reasons.

First, the standards and regs for senior members are different from cadets.  52-16 is a regulation which cover the execution of the Cadet Program.  I would not be at all uncomfortable meeting up with other senior members (i.e. adults) on my own time, out of uniform, for anything I felt like doing.  As adults, we are personally responsible for our own behavior.  Not so when you involve cadets, where the adults in the room are responsible for their safety.

Next, you may wish to familiarize yourself with the way paramilitary organizations are run, especially in terms of their published regulations.  The only thing you may do, is what is explicitly authorized.  All other options are prohibited, and generally the only time a specific behavior is prohibited is when there has been a problem in the past where a commander's liberal interpretation of a respective regulation has caused a problem.

Third, trying to invoke some purported "right" from the U.S. Constitution is irrelevant, as members of CAP who wish to stay members of CAP must obey the CAP Constitution.  In this case, CAP, Inc, cannot tell Mr. Climbsink he is prohibited from paintball, but it absolutely can tell Lt. Climbsink he isn't even allowed to think about it, on CAP time or otherwise.  Lt. Climbsink is then free to vote with his feet and leave, or comply and stay.

My bad, I wasn't paying enough attention to the details.  I have no problem with CAP saying paintball isn't a viable activity for Cadets.  But the notion that friends from CAP can't go paintballing on their own time I find silly. 

It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

Quote from: SWASH on December 18, 2008, 09:24:33 PM
It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

Nobody said you cant do it outside of CAP!  ;)

Quote from: TEAM SURGE on December 19, 2008, 08:24:21 PM

Quote from: SWASH on December 18, 2008, 09:24:33 PM
It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

Nobody said you cant do it outside of CAP!  ;)

That has been the point of argument for the last 3.5 pages of this thread, whether or not CAP friends could play paintball of airsoft together and it not be a 'CAP activity'.

We actually had a discussion like this in my squadron a few years ago, but not about Paintball or anything like that. The question was whether or not the cadet staff could have a staff meeting (no uniforms and no SMs) and it not  be considered a CAP activity. The cadets joked about for a while, especially two brothers that were in the program, wondering if it was a CAP activity whenever they did something together...

There has to be a line drawn between CAP and your life. To me, if I am not wearing a uniform and not signed in to an activity, it is not CAP, and I can do what I want with who I want, CAP membership regardless.

Quote from: DC on December 19, 2008, 10:12:08 PM
[That has been the point of argument for the last 3.5 pages of this thread, whether or not CAP friends could play paintball of airsoft together and it not be a 'CAP activity'.

We actually had a discussion like this in my squadron a few years ago, but not about Paintball or anything like that. The question was whether or not the cadet staff could have a staff meeting (no uniforms and no SMs) and it not  be considered a CAP activity. The cadets joked about for a while, especially two brothers that were in the program, wondering if it was a CAP activity whenever they did something together...

Cadets holding a cadet staff meeting, regardless of uniforms, ARE at a cadet activity, since the purpose is CAP.

Quote from: DC on December 19, 2008, 10:12:08 PM
...... if I am not wearing a uniform and not signed in to an activity, it is not CAP, and I can do what I want with who I want, CAP membership regardless.

Unless you are doing CAP work, like the Cadet staff who meets on a different day than SQD meetings would be doing.  CAP work= CAP activity.

Playing paintball with CAP friends outside the weekly meeting is fine, just don't advertise it during the meeting, or through CAP communication channels, don't wear a CAP uniform etc.

However, meeting with your SQD friends to make decisions regarding your SQD would absolutely by CAP activity, even though no uniform is worn.  

We need to stop thinking that CAP is the military, it is not.  

The question posed was answered on the first page.  

I can't beleive this thread has gone on for 4 pages!

GEESE GUYS!

It is simple....it really is.  No paintball.

Additionally....we need to be aware of what "outside meetings" our cadets are organising.  Not that we want to limit them or stop them but to make sure that the PARENTS are aware of what is and is not a CAP activity.

The "let's all meet at the paintball feild" is all fine and good until Cadet Newkid tells his parents he is going to "Play paintball with CAP" and get's hurt.

The same can be said about cadets going to "cadet staff meetings" or "Week end FTXs" that are not monitored/supervised/known by the senior members.

Ok then how can cap say that if you have cap pics on your MySpace and you also have illegal pics you have to take one or the other down or they will kick you out.

Another example how can two cadets who go out on a date and the guy goes too far or does something that upsets her and she makes a cap complaint and he gets kicked out... they weren't  in uniform the only thing is that they are both cadets, nothing is illegal about it,

So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

Quote from: caprr275 on December 20, 2008, 02:35:37 AM
Ok then how can cap say that if you have cap pics on your MySpace and you also have illegal pics you have to take one or the other down or they will kick you out.

Another example how can two cadets who go out on a date and the guy goes too far or does something that upsets her and she makes a cap complaint and he gets kicked out... they weren't  in uniform the only thing is that they are both cadets, nothing is illegal about it,

So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

Because your moral values and sense of right and wrong is not something that turns itself on, on CAP meting night, and back off after the meeting.  In your EXAMPLES you did not violate regs......you violated LAWS, both criminal and civil.  Your actions outside of CAP, reflect what type of person you will be when you put the CAP uniform on.

Honestly we don't want pot heads and rapists. 

I wouldn't kick you out of CAP for you myspace pics, I would print them out and deliver a copy to your parents hands and let them decide how to handle you. 

Quote from: caprr275 on December 20, 2008, 02:35:37 AM
So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

No one who understands CAP, our regs, or our litigious society.

There are places and reasons in CAP where I would takes risks outside the regs to save lives, we all would.  However those personal lines of demarcation have no place in the academic arguments of what is "ok", "not ok", and /or "on the line". 

Something silly like paintball isn't a place I'm going to choose to "make my stand".

Quote from: Timbo on December 20, 2008, 02:53:57 AM
I wouldn't kick you out of CAP for you myspace pics, I would print them out and deliver a copy to your parents hands and let them decide how to handle you. 

Anything showing blatant violations of CAP regs, posted publicly, makes you fair game to have more free time on your hands.  Hopefully mom & dad will impose further..."unpleasantness", but their potential actions don't relieve a commander of his responsibility to discipline cadets (or seniors).

Some of you guys are wound way too tight.  If it's moral and legal and nobody is wearing a uniform or using CAP real estate/equipment then all's good.

Quote from: Climbnsink on December 20, 2008, 05:38:33 PM
Some of you guys are wound way too tight.  If it's moral and legal and nobody is wearing a uniform or using CAP real estate/equipment then all's good.

It's like some people think that CAP follows them throughout everythig. I saw some cadets at the fair "hey Seargent" I mean we are not at  a meeting you can call me by my real name. 

Well this has been stretched too far. Basically if your not signed into or not in a CAP uniform you are not having a CAP activity and if you want to get your "friends" in the squadron to play paintball with you outside of the meeting thats up to you.

One one level you are correct Team Surge.....no one can stop a group of cadets from meeting outside of CAP.....and we should not try.

However.....we should be aware of these meetings and our cadets should be made explicity aware that these "meet-up" are not CAP activities.

Where the problem is.....the parents may not know that the acitivity is not CAP related.

Cadet Joe tells his parents that he is going to play Paintball with CAP....he gets hurt and bills CAP for his injuries.  As part of our CYA....we have to be proactive in educating our cadets of what is allow, what is a CAP activity and what the consequences are for "mis-informing" our parents.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 25, 2008, 05:58:23 AM
One one level you are correct Team Surge.....no one can stop a group of cadets from meeting outside of CAP.....and we should not try.

However.....we should be aware of these meetings and our cadets should be made explicity aware that these "meet-up" are not CAP activities.

Where the problem is.....the parents may not know that the acitivity is not CAP related.

Cadet Joe tells his parents that he is going to play Paintball with CAP....he gets hurt and bills CAP for his injuries.  As part of our CYA....we have to be proactive in educating our cadets of what is allow, what is a CAP activity and what the consequences are for "mis-informing" our parents.

Thats what I mean. And that is common for new cadets.

As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball, now I think the regulation should state its allowed upon permission slips signed by parents/guardians and the paintball activity will be supervised by the paintball facility staff and senior members. I also think that squadrons should set up firearms training for cadets who want to do it. The regulations say it has to be given of course by a certified firearms instructor police, military, or NRA instructors. Firearms shooting is a good thing for younger people to get involved in, it can teach allot of responsibility, states show that teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc.

I do think the regulation CAP has is dumb, it says No Weapons, yet You have an Air Force Survival knife amoung others. This reminds Me of when the police dept I was with as a police explorer changed the regs for us. It said No Knives blah blah etc. Well You could carry a multi tool/knife, which some had two knife blades, We changed the regs, We allowed explorers Who were permitted by the dept's instructors to carry handcuffs and pepper spray. Also Depending on the Officer You went on road patrol with if they knew You were in good sound mind, training as an explorer they instructed You if things went bad and You have to as a last resort to use the 12Ga Tactical Shotgun. I knew as a police explorer which button to hit to release that tac shotgun. Just a my long time friend and officer I rode with all the time back then said if Im dead what good am I to You, and will You survive, yet as a whole heck yeah that would be against the regulations but the law also says you are to do as the officer instructs so We were within the law and they couldnt really do anything because it would be self defense of my self, my buddy the officer (Lt now) and public.

Now Im not saying to arm cadets by my post lol, they arent going to do that, however when a cadet carries a knife they are armed. I have a knife for CAP I also have a State Weapon Permit to Carry both Open or Concealed. I carry as a security officer on duty and carry (CCW) off duty.

But I say as long as its set up correctly and the buisness that has paintball supervises the cadets and our seniors supervises them let it happen. And I dont wanna hear that someone could get hurt killed, I understand with anything we do things can happen, You hear certain "groups" say this about shooting sports and training, however its not correct. Football teams have more kids injured and killed a year than shooting sports. Some other sports are the same and activities that kids do. I think one reason less get hurt in shooting sports every year and by every ten year figures and so on is because shooting training/sports requires a high level of respect, responsibility amoung many other things.

There are few paintball businesses up in the mountains, but there's a whole bunch of forests where folks of all ages and genders go to play paintball and airsoft.

As a CAP activity, you open both CAP and yourself up to a range of liability issues. Even with parental permission slips and liability waivers, there is a potential for problems. Parents can waive their right to sue, etc, but CANNOT waive their childrens' right to sue.

A very prudent policy - which I've seen becoming more common - is to make sure parents receive something regarding ALL unit CAP activities, either by email or direct letter. Also, make sure the parents has phone numbers for the unit command staff (CC, CDC, CDS) and encourage them to call if they have any questions.

If a bunch of cadets want to get together and play paintball, airsoft, hockey, football, whatever, as a bunch of friends, great. They need to make sure everyone understands it is not a CAP activity. As for CAP units providing basic firearms training for members, it is allowed, but there are some requirements which limit who can teach and where you can do it. And not all units have qualified instructors available.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:41:30 AM
As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball...

To your assertion that teens who receive firearms training get better grades?  Cite please.

In comment to your saying shooting teams are safer than other sports...well of course they are.  Unless the competition teams are incredibly reckless, the injury and death rate should be effectively zero.  Unlike paintball and football, competition shooting teams don't aim their weapons at the other team.

SM-MADDOG-

We aren't talking about firearms.  We're talking about paint balling.

They are entirely different with the only similarity being that they both shoot projectiles. 

And FYI- it may be so in the police explorer world but in CAP if I hand a cadet a paintball gun and tell them to shoot that kid over there it doesn't make it "legal" regulatorily speaking

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:41:30 AM
teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc. 

Okay, I'll bite: What's your source on that? I've never seen that stat anywhere.

Yes, You can find those states in several places I will have to look them up for You, they are complied by some federal government agencies one may be FBI. Im not sure if they complie that type of state or not though. Annother place to go to or contact if the National Rifle Association which can direct You where to find those federal states and what not. They can also advise You on my quote about the shooting sports, its facts that are proven and have been proven for many many years. Shooting Sports is a good program for certain young people to get into, just as the CAP cadet program. The CAP cadet program is a proven fact of what type of adults it turns out in the future, etc. 

Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2009, 05:48:24 AM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:41:30 AM
As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball...

To your assertion that teens who receive firearms training get better grades?  Cite please.

In comment to your saying shooting teams are safer than other sports...well of course they are.  Unless the competition teams are incredibly reckless, the injury and death rate should be effectively zero.  Unlike paintball and football, competition shooting teams don't aim their weapons at the other team.

That's alright some people have never heard that stat, just as some people have never heard that over 2.5 million times a year a lawful citizen with a firearm stops a violent crime, and most of those cases they didnt even have to fire a shot, just brandishing the firearm made the thug run off like the cowards they are.

One place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

One reason with the grades, alot of shooting teams and what not require passing grades or they cant be active. I think that alone is a teen likes the sport or program they will try hard to have passing grades. When I was in police explorers We had to get at least above passing with a C avg or We became inactive no questions asked intill those grades went up. Also any criminal charges, traffic tickets or what not was up to the rules/regulations of the police dept and cheif. A Traffic ticket may be ok but two in a certain time period wasnt.

Quote from: Rotorhead on January 22, 2009, 07:13:19 AM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:41:30 AM
teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc. 

Okay, I'll bite: What's your source on that? I've never seen that stat anywhere.

Ok You arent speaking about firearms, I was showing examples of other things. Someone said Weapons, now I passed basic firearms with the PD back in 1998, go re view what the meaning of weapon is. Firearm, Knife, Baton and so on. What im showing is that CAP's own regulation on this so called thing is funny, it says (No Weapons). A Knife is a weapon.

In our State here the Air Force survival knife if You were to carry that off duty from CAP You would be arrested, the knife blade is too long from what the law says You are allowed to carry. That's what I was speaking about. And I just added some things.

Now You saying FYI Police Explorer world I never stated they handed Me a gun on the road. We did during firearms training with sworn certified weapons instructors, however if an emergency came up and was very bad I was advised and knew I could use a weapon as last resort if it called for it. I know I cant hand a "firearm to a cadet" lol. But speaking on the paintball activity is what I was also saying.

Quote from: IceNine on January 22, 2009, 06:10:00 AM
SM-MADDOG-

We aren't talking about firearms.  We're talking about paint balling.

They are entirely different with the only similarity being that they both shoot projectiles. 

And FYI- it may be so in the police explorer world but in CAP if I hand a cadet a paintball gun and tell them to shoot that kid over there it doesn't make it "legal" regulatorily speaking

Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an official squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyond CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

For the record you only need one Senior Member present...

Quote from: CAPR 52-10 Paragraph 4DEnsure that at least two “approved” senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Emphasis mine...the keyword is 'Encourage' not required. You are only required to have one approved senior member at cadet activities and two for overnight activities. Although it is highly recommended to have two.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day activity not a night.

A) CPT does not require 2 adults for non-overnight activities.

B) The CO is wrong. Period.

B) Someone needs to review a few regulatory documents.

MADDOG:

Are you new to CAP?

Are you a 21 year old senior who just converted over from being a cadet?

Are you serious?

I think the group commander has some requirements for 2 Senior Members.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2009, 01:31:02 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day activity not a night.

A) CPT does not require 2 adults for non-overnight activities.

B) The CO is wrong. Period.

B) Someone needs to review a few regulatory documents.

Hi stonewall, I think Your male however im not sure, so No Sir or Ma'am im not new to CAP. I joined CAP back Jan 06. Im 26, going to turn 27 so yes to the 2nd question lol. Age number just keeps going up.

As to the 3rd question serious about the commander speaking about an activity needing 2 seniors? Yes. That is what the Group Command has said since I joined. I can say that since I joined they have (CAP) seems to be going in a better direction. Overal I love CAP. Of course as with anything they can improve in certain areas but nothing is perfect.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 22, 2009, 02:20:09 PM
MADDOG:

Are you new to CAP?

Are you a 21 year old senior who just converted over from being a cadet?

Are you serious?

Quote from: JThemann on January 22, 2009, 12:48:20 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

Thanks for the reply, are You saying no to the 2 senior member rule? Or no to the off duty paintball?. Because if they did paintball not as CAP or anything to do with CAP, they could. It wouldnt fall under the CAP regs because it wouldnt have a thing to do with CAP, and its also not against any federal or state laws so they would be lawful. That is unless they did something to make it illegal, lol.

As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

I tried to send you a PM (Private Message) and take this offline, but you have me blocked from sending you a message.

I'd rather not post what I wrote to you as it isn't something everyone needs to see.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AMFor cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore.

Nice try, but NO, despite what the CC says. Clothing has no bearing on whether it is a CAP acitivty or not.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 09:58:47 AMOne place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

If you can find and cite for me an objective source--not the NRA--that supplies evidence that kids who are taught to shoot get better grades than kids who do not, I'll admit you're right.

There is NO way that paintball can be a CAP activity.  That said, there are at least two CAP squadrons that go to Fort Benning and play paintball on the paintball field there.  I don't know if it is advertised as CAP or not, but they are doing it.  I would think that if one were interested in doing something like this OUTSIDE of CAP, they should print up sheets notifying any children or adults attending that this would not be a CAP activity and  then have them sign that they agreed and understood same.  This waiver would not eliminate CAP and/or the Commander/chain of command from being sued, but it would be the beginning of a defense..  Your mileage may vary, but Govern Yourself Accordingly as I am an attorney..

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:26:04 PM
As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

There is no regulatory basis for requiring more than one senior member at a cadet activity.  Commanders are free to publish their own, local, SOP's, but barring that its just a wives tale.

52-16 and 52-10 are the documents that govern the cadet program and cadet protection.

As to paintball off-duty, read this thread and probably the 10+ other here and on CS to see that by no means is this a clear situation.  Whenever CAP members gather together for anything, whether or not that gathering becomes a CAP it is a CAP activity, officially or unofficially, might be the subjective call of an IG or judge, especially where it concerns senior members meeting, for whatever reason, with cadets (the 'parent exclusion" not withstanding).

The average senior member has no reason to meet or spend time with the average cadet, and when they "happen to show up at the same place..." no one is fooling anybody and any consequences of the situation are deserved by all parties.

In the Benning situation, I can't see how anyone would think that isn't connected to CAP - how else are they getting access to the base?  Flashing your ID card for access?  Then while you're on base, you're in CAP - 100%, er go...

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:26:04 PM

Quote from: JThemann on January 22, 2009, 12:48:20 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 11:25:31 AM
Cadets could decide as a "group of friends" to go out and do paintball right? If its not on duty with CAP, not an offical squadron activity they could do it that way. I know some of our cadets they do stuff like that off duty from CAP. I like that they decide to do things beyound CAP, brings the friends closer together on duty and off duty.

One other things I've seen. For cadet protection says 2 seniors members at an activity, well say a squadron is short and for some reason the 2nd senior member may have to leave, they could take off BDU Shirt and be wearing the tshirt which says nothing about CAP on it. Then it wouldnt be a CAP activity anymore. I seen this at a annual halloween event, and one senior was sick and didnt know if she could stay. the CO said if that happens it wont be a activity anymore and cadets can stay or leave but if they stay take the BDU shirt off. Oh and this was a day actvity not a night.

*sighs, and buries my face in my hands*

No, no no no, no no no no.

Thanks for the reply, are You saying no to the 2 senior member rule? Or no to the off duty paintball?. Because if they did paintball not as CAP or anything to do with CAP, they could. It wouldnt fall under the CAP regs because it wouldnt have a thing to do with CAP, and its also not against any federal or state laws so they would be lawful. That is unless they did something to make it illegal, lol.

As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

What you said is a bunch of bull that fifteen year old cadets periodically try to guard house lawyer.

A group of cadets with an SM present for CAP duty is a CAP activity.

Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

Quote from: davidsinn on January 23, 2009, 01:13:49 AM
Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

I wont disagree with you on that, at all, but if you all show up in CAP uniform, and take off your BDU or service uniform shirt, you're still a CAP member at a CAP activity.

Quote from: JThemann on January 23, 2009, 01:43:29 AM

Quote from: davidsinn on January 23, 2009, 01:13:49 AM
Try this one on for size:
My CAP unit was formed from members of my paintball team. We continued to play after the unit was formed. We had both cadets and SMs on the team. Not everyone on the team was in the unit and not everyone in the unit was on the team but there was a significant overlap. The only connection between the two is it consisted of the same people. What say you now? Just because someone is a member of CAP DOES NOT make every time two of them together an official activity. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

I wont disagree with you on that, at all, but if you all show up in CAP uniform, and take off your BDU or service uniform shirt, you're still a CAP member at a CAP activity.

You have a point there.

The NRA has all those stats You need and then some. Ever heard of the Eddie Eagle program? Look that up also. I will try to find some things for You to read on it. Just got on here quick and in a few minutes im getting off line. Im not on active duty any more with My agency medical reasons and have been running like a chicken with its head cut off today taking care of stuff. Thanks for the reply, Stay Safe

Quote from: Rotorhead on January 22, 2009, 05:38:45 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 09:58:47 AMOne place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

If you can find and cite for me an objective source--not the NRA--that supplies evidence that kids who are taught to shoot get better grades than kids who do not, I'll admit you're right.

If that was a reply to My post Yes my profile is set up that way, sorry, sir or ma'am. Thanks for the reply though.

Quote from: Stonewall on January 22, 2009, 04:01:47 PM
I tried to send you a PM (Private Message) and take this offline, but you have me blocked from sending you a message.

I'd rather not post what I wrote to you as it isn't something everyone needs to see.

As he said, the NRA is hardly an objective source for statistics about a program it is advocating.

The NEA or a similar would probably be a better choice, but they likely don't compile those sorts of stats.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2009, 08:44:20 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 22, 2009, 03:26:04 PM
As for the 2 senior member rule, this thing is crazy. I know the group commander has said We must have 2 senior members for activities and night activities. Thats the way it's been done since I joined in 06. I wish they would get with it and look at the regulations and decide how is suppose to be done.

There is no regulatory basis for requiring more than one senior member at a cadet activity.  Commanders are free to publish their own, local, SOP's, but barring that its just a wives tale.

52-16 and 52-10 are the documents that govern the cadet program and cadet protection.

As to paintball off-duty, read this thread and probably the 10+ other here and on CS to see that by no means is this a clear situation.  Whenever CAP members gather together for anything, whether or not that gathering becomes a CAP it is a CAP activity, officially or unofficially, might be the subjective call of an IG or judge, especially where it concerns senior members meeting, for whatever reason, with cadets (the 'parent exclusion" not withstanding).

The average senior member has no reason to meet or spend time with the average cadet, and when they "happen to show up at the same place..." no one is fooling anybody and any consequences of the situation are deserved by all parties.

In the Benning situation, I can't see how anyone would think that isn't connected to CAP - how else are they getting access to the base?  Flashing your ID card for access?  Then while you're on base, you're in CAP - 100%, er go...

Yeah thats what I thought yet the group commander says different. Also I dont know if You seen this in 2006 when I went to join CAP it said Senior members didnt have to buy a uniform. Well the group commander made it a rule that if a SM wasnt in uniform they had to go home. He said the squadron commander or who ever is incharge must tell them to go home. Anyone heard of this? I go by the rules/regulations so what ever they say I will do it. But I didn't like that rule, lol. Just my personal feeling on it.

Oh I agree that a SM dont need to be with cadets off duty. And thats not what I ment by the friends going to to do paintball.

Thanks for the reply, helpes clear up stuff by talking to people outside of the group or squadron on the issue.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 07:45:49 PM
Yeah thats what I thought yet the group commander says different. Also I dont know if You seen this in 2006 when I went to join CAP it said Senior members didnt have to buy a uniform. Well the group commander made it a rule that if a SM wasnt in uniform they had to go home. He said the squadron commander or who ever is incharge must tell them to go home. Anyone heard of this? I go by the rules/regulations so what ever they say I will do it. But I didn't like that rule, lol. Just my personal feeling on it.

Of course, Seniors always have to be in uniform when interacting with cadets, and this certainly isn't new as of 2006.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 07:48:47 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 07:45:49 PM
Yeah thats what I thought yet the group commander says different. Also I dont know if You seen this in 2006 when I went to join CAP it said Senior members didnt have to buy a uniform. Well the group commander made it a rule that if a SM wasnt in uniform they had to go home. He said the squadron commander or who ever is incharge must tell them to go home. Anyone heard of this? I go by the rules/regulations so what ever they say I will do it. But I didn't like that rule, lol. Just my personal feeling on it.

Of course, Seniors always have to be in uniform when interacting with cadets, and this certainly isn't new as of 2006.

CAP's web site said senior members could serve without a uniform. However maybe they took that off the web site. Thats what I was speaking about www.cap.gov

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 07:37:23 PM
As he said, the NRA is hardly an objective source for statistics about a program it is advocating.

The NEA or a similar would probably be a better choice, but they likely don't compile those sorts of stats.

Yeah, if You call NRA they allot of times can direct where to look up certain things and from certain federal agencies such as FBI and so on. Allot of the stats and things the NRA speaks about are backed up by evidence again such as stats and what not. They take it from places such as FBI, and many other federal/state/local agencies. Also doing a search on line will help find allot of information.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 08:13:19 PM
CAP's web site said senior members could serve without a uniform. However maybe they took that off the web site. Thats what I was speaking about www.cap.gov

I can't imagine why it would ever say that.

Yes, you could potentially perform some staff work or other GIB jobs without even the most basic golf shirt, but nothing "front of house" with cadets, nothing in ES, and nothing in or around an airplane.  That doesn't leave a whole lot of duty left that's attractive from a recruiting standpoint.

We all wind up mired in administrivia, but rare is the member who signs up specifically to process WBP forms and CAPF 2s.

"Join CAP and see...the back room of the hanger!"  Not really very catchy.

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
Also doing a search on line will help find allot of information.

Well, you made the claim, so I think it is incumbent upon you to back it up.

I don't believe it is accurate.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 08:43:08 PM
We all wind up mired in administrivia, but rare is the member who signs up specifically to process WBP forms and CAPF 2s.

Funny, that's exactly why I joined. When my son was a new cadet, a few conversations with the squadron CC told me that they really needed an admin guy. No problem, I can fit that into my busy schedule.

A couple of back seat rides turned into Mission Scanner... and we all know the rest of the story. CAP is like another freakin' part-time job.

To keep this somewhat on topic - I never do paintball with cadets, except my son. Maybe it's the admin guy in me, but the rules seem pretty clear.

Quote from: Rotorhead on January 24, 2009, 12:08:11 AM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
Also doing a search on line will help find allot of information.

Well, you made the claim, so I think it is incumbent upon you to back it up.

I don't believe it is accurate.

Thats okay if You dont believe it or not. People could make the same claim for civil air patrol cadets, however We all know what the cadet program does. Also I spoke about the eddie eagle program and that governments provide grants to teach such a program to childeren. But again wether we believe something or not that is our rights. I didn't know allot of things till I joined NRA, I thought being a police explorer I did. Yes I knew allot of knowledge from explorers yet Did I really like I thought? No. Just as I stated as an explorer our policy was if you were in high school you must earn a "C" avg at least, yet the high schools sport teams amoung other programs only required a "D" average. I knew of one police dept that required at least a C + avg or better. They also had tough PT requirements. If You did not improve you could be cut lose from the program. That's why I like programs like explorers, CAP cadet's etc. It gives them a reason to get passing grades.

When I was an explorer before I joined I was getting barley passing grades really. That year My best I got was a B or C, mostly barley passing. I joined over the summer. My first quarter back in school I started with a 4.0 GPA. My best grades were mostly B's or C's. Thats what I mean about programs like that. Of course it still depends on the person. They will either make it or not. So yes shooting programs do that just as programs like CAP cadet program does. Im not saying everyone who ever does it will make it. That depends on them, but as a whole those programs do stand out.

Stay Safe All

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 08:43:08 PM

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 23, 2009, 08:13:19 PM
CAP's web site said senior members could serve without a uniform. However maybe they took that off the web site. Thats what I was speaking about www.cap.gov

I can't imagine why it would ever say that.

Yes, you could potentially perform some staff work or other GIB jobs without even the most basic golf shirt, but nothing "front of house" with cadets, nothing in ES, and nothing in or around an airplane.  That doesn't leave a whole lot of duty left that's attractive from a recruiting standpoint.

We all wind up mired in administrivia, but rare is the member who signs up specifically to process WBP forms and CAPF 2s.

"Join CAP and see...the back room of the hanger!"  Not really very catchy.

Yeah thats why I joined so quick when I was researching CAP. I really didn't have the money at the time (i still dont lol). Anyways I was workin allot of over time and seen that CAP was more flexible for senior members than other groups. When I joined I realized that I did need a uniform. I bought the golf pull over shirt, already had the pants. A 4 months later I bought the senior uniform white shirt, etc.

Also what I spoke about the Eddie Eagle program here ia an article on line that tells the stats they researced from the National Safety Council and stats they got from the ATF a federal law enforcement agency. They have another federal agency which quotes the same thing but I can't think of it. Its some federal health agency. However this article does provides link's to the NSC I believe. Which shows what I stated that the accidents declined. I always take the Media with a grain of salt so to say. It depends on the network and what they wish to say. Just as Dan Rather was fired for making false statements about various topics and people/groups. I always try to look for the truth of things rather than what someone in a suit on tv says.

They pick and chose what to tell and sometimes in some cases lie or mislead about certain topics. We all know we must research to find things and the truth. Also incase You dont know the federal government has a regulation on people and groups that within a certain time frame of a presidential election they can not put anything on tv about either of the people running. I heard that one female senator wants to target the internet. That is First Admendment rights, yet some in the government want to try and get rid of those. That's all I will say of any of that. I think that was the Campaign Refinance regulation. Look all of those up. As I said this is all I will say on any of it. Below is the link for those that have asked about certain things and may research it if they wish or not. You all have a good day stay safe :)

http://guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html

Quote from: SM-MADDOG on January 25, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Also what I spoke about the Eddie Eagle program here ia an article on line that tells the stats they researced from the National Safety Council and stats they got from the ATF a federal law enforcement agency. They have another federal agency which quotes the same thing but I can't think of it. Its some federal health agency. However this article does provides link's to the NSC I believe. Which shows what I stated that the accidents declined.

That's fine, but you said kids do better in school, i.e., get better grades, when they learn to shoot. This article doesn't say that and you haven't provided a link to any evdience that does. 

Just because, you, personally did better doesn't make the statement objectively true. Correlation does not imply causation. I suspect you can't prove it because there's never been any proof to back up the claim that "teaching kids to shoot helps them do better in school."

I'd also like to see evidence to back up your new claim that, "the federal government has a regulation on people and groups that within a certain time frame of a presidential election they can not put anything on tv about either of the people running," because I know that isn't true. Campaign Finance regualtion does no such thing.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2009, 07:37:23 PM
As he said, the NRA is hardly an objective source for statistics about a program it is advocating.

The NEA or a similar would probably be a better choice, but they likely don't compile those sorts of stats.

The NEA. . . ???  The National Educators Association being a better choice.  Don't make me laugh.  The NEA is anti-weapon as you can get, with the exception of some Radical Liberals.
At least the NRA does pull its stats from truely independant orgs, such as the FBI.

Quote from: RogueLeader on January 25, 2009, 06:21:19 PM
At least the NRA does pull its stats from truely independant orgs, such as the FBI.

As long as those stats suit their purpose. The NRA is an interest group, and is "as pro-weapon as you can get," to use your terminology.

They would never tout stats that tend to discredit their point of view.

at least all the NRA's claims can be backed by independant verification, unlike the NEA; but thats off topic.

as for if cadets should paintball or not, is above my paygrade.

Can anyone tell me when this rule(banning paintball) was enacted and what the original reasoning was?

Quote from: davidsinn on January 25, 2009, 10:44:30 PM
Can anyone tell me when this rule(banning paintball) was enacted and what the original reasoning was?

It's been around for at least the last five years....and I get the feeling it was old even back then.

Reasoning?  1.  Liabilty.  2. It's too military.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 26, 2009, 03:07:01 AM

Quote from: davidsinn on January 25, 2009, 10:44:30 PM
Can anyone tell me when this rule(banning paintball) was enacted and what the original reasoning was?

It's been around for at least the last five years....and I get the feeling it was old even back then.

Reasoning?  1.  Liabilty.  2. It's too military.

Playing a sport is too military, but wearing uniforms, marching around, and shooting M-16s at encampment isn't?

Quote from: DC on January 26, 2009, 04:47:38 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on January 26, 2009, 03:07:01 AM

Quote from: davidsinn on January 25, 2009, 10:44:30 PM
Can anyone tell me when this rule(banning paintball) was enacted and what the original reasoning was?

It's been around for at least the last five years....and I get the feeling it was old even back then.

Reasoning?  1.  Liabilty.  2. It's too military.

Playing a sport is too military, but wearing uniforms, marching around, and shooting M-16s at encampment isn't?

At Encampment you usually don't have people shooting at you.

The ban came about due to a cadet who got hurt while doing paintball as a CAP activity.
The parents sued and you can probably figure out the rest.