What roles do MD, RN, EMT have in CAP

[Pace]

It's the "Medical Officer" at encampment that is there to do a lot more than stand around in case that emergency situation arises. They do triage, assess patients and determine course of treatment from take ibuprofen and put some moleskin on that foot to get this person to the hospital stat. That is contrary to our internal regulations and policies yet happens at a lot of cadet and emergency services activities.

As stated before, this continued ignoring of the rules puts both the members and CAP, Inc at risk, but NHQ engages this behavior so why shouldn't the membership?

I get creating duty positions and bling probably had good intentions around recruiting, but it's created an cadre of members who really want to open temporary medical practices at activities instead of being a phone number folks can call for advice.

It seems then that these specific occurances need to be addressed. This likely happens either due to a lack of knowledge of the regulations (someone who means well but is acting outside the regulations) or is the result of misguided aspirations.

As Eclipse said, these roles that go beyond simple advising do not require medical professionals. Anyone can wash dirt off a wound and apply a bandage. Anyone can ensure that little Johnny takes his prescription medicine. At the point that a non-medically trained person would reasonably think that we need to go to urgent care or call an ambulance is also the same point that a medical officer should do the same; not diagnose and treat 

If we simply followed the spirit and letter of the regulations, these problems likely would not exist (if they exist at all, rather than a perception of the problem existing).

[Eclipse]

60-70 is pretty clear, yet how many cadets come home with tales of spending time in "sick call"?

I just Googled and it took zero effort to find plenty of "medical staffs", Cadet Medical Officers,
and even an Optical Lab Tech / EMT who is referred to officially as a "Medical Officer" quite proudly.

[Spam]

You know, I hear all this and it makes sense. You all are quite correct by the regs and I concur with what you're saying.

And yet, in 1992 I would have listened to my cadets two tac officers who told me, quite reasonably, that she only had heat cramps. And her rupturing ovary would have progressed, and sometime that night (... maybe? ...) she would have presented in extremis rather than immediately, after my MO told me to ignore the laymen and get her to an ER.

So, OK. I hear you. Mine is a textbook case example of being wrong. Thanks anyways, Doc.

V/r
Spam

[Eclipse]

And yet, in 1992 I would have listened to my cadets two tac officers who told me, quite reasonably, that she only had heat cramps. And her rupturing ovary would have progressed, and sometime that night (... maybe? ...) she would have presented in extremis rather than immediately, after my MO told me to ignore the laymen and get her to an ER.

I'd bet most of us with populated RSRs have examples that prove the rule.

I've leaned heavily on amazing MOs (actual MDs), but that doesn't change the
dichotomy of CAP's stance of "Thank FSM you're here, we need you!" buuut....

[Pinecone]

Interesting to see a number of posts mixing up the areas of MDs and proper safety and health people.

[Eclipse]

Interesting to see a number of posts mixing up the areas of MDs and proper safety and health people.

They are often intermingled or the same person.

[Pinecone]

Interesting to see a number of posts mixing up the areas of MDs and proper safety and health people.

They are often intermingled or the same person.

Yes, but still two different roles.

And expertise in one area does not mean expertise in the other.

[Eclipse]

Interesting to see a number of posts mixing up the areas of MDs and proper safety and health people.

They are often intermingled or the same person.

Yes, but still two different roles.

And expertise in one area does not mean expertise in the other.

Yes, that's the point.

A significant number of activities just slot the HSO, MD, Optician, etc., into the
Safety Officer slot due to their presence and a lack of other qualified / interested members.

Due to the way CAP tends to handle both areas, these roles are usually an
afterthought or tangential and so having a CAP ID for the checkbox, and someone willing
to fill out the forms / navigate the obfuscated path to incident notification
(often made more difficult by local wing and Region policies) becomes a goal
in and of itself.

[SARDOC]

I used my experience as a paramedic basically for the Professional Appointment when I first became a member.  My squadron commander didn't have a need for an HSO at that time, so that role went away.

The only use for my certification now is evidence of "First Aid or Equivalent" training on my SQTR.

I'd work at the CPR/First Aid Level if the need arised, Most BLS care is ultimately CPR/Advanced First Aid on Steroids...nothing anybody would get in trouble about.  I don't provide ALS care because in CAP I don't have a medical director and who wants to carry all that equipment around. 

I've served at Encampments and NCSA's never in an HSO capacity, ultimately, it's Let's call Mom/Dad or that needs to be seen.  That's it.

[Craswell]

Big I think if your unit is ever called on an actual mission and more so the bigger the mess and the less official help that is present. The more you will want these sorts of professionals on your side. I think the person who posted the assisting at a car crash made a good point but let me take it another direction. Does being in CAP with its rules and regulations cause you to render less aid? If you can answer that and start listing regs that forbid you to help where help is needed and no one else is doing anything? I think you've crossed into becoming a Sea Lawyer. I've been told that CAP is not tasked with recovering dead bodies. *I do have to read the current regs its been a while or someone has to point that one out. In SAR missions that go on for a certain amount of time I hear this a lot and calls to fold everything up and go home. My question is how do you know your wasting time recovering a dead body unless you have found the dead body? When some old woman covered in bug bites thirsty and hungry stumbles out of the woods 3 weeks after you quit how does that feel?

[Eclipse]

Does being in CAP with its rules and regulations cause you to render less aid?

Yes, per se.  The regs are clear.  CAP is not a medical responder agency, and members are only allowed to
provide basic First Aid until other qualified responders arrive.

If you can answer that and start listing regs that forbid you to help where help is needed and no one else is doing anything? I think you've crossed into becoming a Sea Lawyer.

And yes, it's literally about being concerned about liability, whether that's a cadet using a
pen cap for a trach because he saw it on M*A*S*H, or an MD who makes a serious mistake and then is stuck
between "duty of care" and "lack of organizational and insurance support.

The best advice there is to not get involved in missions where it might come up, or join
an organizaiton which overtly provides emergency care.

There are plenty of fine organizations, both volunteer and professional which provide emergency medical care.
If you want to provide more then First Aid, join one of them, and work within their doctrine of care.

I've been told that CAP is not tasked with recovering dead bodies.

That is correct and should be self-evident.

In SAR missions that go on for a certain amount of time I hear this a lot and calls to fold everything up and go home. My question is how do you know your wasting time recovering a dead body unless you have found the dead body? When some old woman covered in bug bites thirsty and hungry stumbles out of the woods 3 weeks after you quit how does that feel?

This not situation unique to CAP.  Resources are limited, especially for volunteers and need to be spent wisely.
Every mission is a "waste of time", until it isn't.  The leadership needs to make informed decisions based on experience and common sense as to when to call things off.

[SARDOC]

I want to echo Eclipse's comments. 

There are many reasons why Civil Air Patrol has made the decision not to be a medical providing agency which we could discuss ad nauseam.  While we do benefit from healthcare members on our team, the shift to a medical agency is just a paradigm shift that frankly, we don't need.  There are plenty of outlets for that.

Let's focus on what we are tasked to do, when we have confidently mastered all of that, we can discuss mission expansion, but that being said as myself having been in healthcare for over 30 years, I don't see Medical services in our future nor should we, it's a very complicated topic for our agency. 

[TheSkyHornet]

I want to echo Eclipse's comments. 

There are many reasons why Civil Air Patrol has made the decision not to be a medical providing agency which we could discuss ad nauseam.  While we do benefit from healthcare members on our team, the shift to a medical agency is just a paradigm shift that frankly, we don't need.  There are plenty of outlets for that.

Let's focus on what we are tasked to do, when we have confidently mastered all of that, we can discuss mission expansion, but that being said as myself having been in healthcare for over 30 years, I don't see Medical services in our future nor should we, it's a very complicated topic for our agency. 

Let's also consider that CAP is continuing its shift to have more of an ISR focus in the ES mission than ground-pounding SAR.

[Paul Creed III]

I want to echo Eclipse's comments. 

There are many reasons why Civil Air Patrol has made the decision not to be a medical providing agency which we could discuss ad nauseam.  While we do benefit from healthcare members on our team, the shift to a medical agency is just a paradigm shift that frankly, we don't need.  There are plenty of outlets for that.

Let's focus on what we are tasked to do, when we have confidently mastered all of that, we can discuss mission expansion, but that being said as myself having been in healthcare for over 30 years, I don't see Medical services in our future nor should we, it's a very complicated topic for our agency. 

Let's also consider that CAP is continuing its shift to have more of an ISR focus in the ES mission than ground-pounding SAR.

For example: https://www.cap.news/cap-aerial-photos-online-assessments-assist-idalia-response/

[Holding Pattern]

I want to echo Eclipse's comments. 

There are many reasons why Civil Air Patrol has made the decision not to be a medical providing agency which we could discuss ad nauseam.  While we do benefit from healthcare members on our team, the shift to a medical agency is just a paradigm shift that frankly, we don't need.  There are plenty of outlets for that.

Let's focus on what we are tasked to do, when we have confidently mastered all of that, we can discuss mission expansion, but that being said as myself having been in healthcare for over 30 years, I don't see Medical services in our future nor should we, it's a very complicated topic for our agency. 

Let's also consider that CAP is continuing its shift to have more of an ISR focus in the ES mission than ground-pounding SAR.

There are also ground pounding SAR opportunities but first we have to build that capability in localities where that can be used.

Which all gets far and away from the simple fact that HSOs are at this point in time useless and nothing at the national conference indicated to me that is changing.

[Shuman 14]

I always wonder how the Coast Guard Auxiliary finds ways to support the Coast Guard by providing volunteer medical services by their HSOs... on bases, on vessels, at USCG Stations and at Reserve Centers, yet the USAF/USSF can't find a way to utilize CAP HSOs.

[PHall]

I always wonder how the Coast Guard Auxiliary finds ways to support the Coast Guard by providing volunteer medical services by their HSOs... on bases, on vessels, at USCG Stations and at Reserve Centers, yet the USAF/USSF can't find a way to utilize CAP HSOs.

Different rules and different laws.

[Holding Pattern]

I always wonder how the Coast Guard Auxiliary finds ways to support the Coast Guard by providing volunteer medical services by their HSOs... on bases, on vessels, at USCG Stations and at Reserve Centers, yet the USAF/USSF can't find a way to utilize CAP HSOs.

In a conversation with some people on that front, it is because they are tightly integrated with the service, but also ONLY serving in the service where we are more open architecture and therefore higher risk.

[PHall]

I always wonder how the Coast Guard Auxiliary finds ways to support the Coast Guard by providing volunteer medical services by their HSOs... on bases, on vessels, at USCG Stations and at Reserve Centers, yet the USAF/USSF can't find a way to utilize CAP HSOs.

In a conversation with some people on that front, it is because they are tightly integrated with the service, but also ONLY serving in the service where we are more open architecture and therefore higher risk.

Not having a cadet program probably helps too.

[RiverAux]

I always wonder how the Coast Guard Auxiliary finds ways to support the Coast Guard by providing volunteer medical services by their HSOs... on bases, on vessels, at USCG Stations and at Reserve Centers, yet the USAF/USSF can't find a way to utilize CAP HSOs.

I don't think this use of CG Aux for medical issues is at all common just because the vast majority of CG installations don't really have any medical capabilities that could be supplemented.  For the most part this is more of a theoretical ability than a widespread one.  I do know that at one point our Sector was interested in having an Auxie capable of teaching First Aid classes.