When was the point where CAP rank ceased actually being rank?

Started by N6RVT, December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AM

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N6RVT

For the top three grades in CAP, full colonel and up, grade actually seems to indicate level of authority.

Below that it does not, an incident commander may be a 1st LT, and a person may make LTC without ever having held a command or even a primary staff job.

At one time the military rank had to have real significance, but it was before 1974 as I do not remember it.  I've been around for more than half the lifetime of this organization so that shift had to be early on, possibly as far back as 1947.  I'm guessing nobody here actually remembers when it happened, but someone probably knows.

Shuman 14

I would say a semi-educated guess would be about the time they stopped letting aircrews carry sidearms and took the depth charges off the coastal patrol planes.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Holding Pattern

In a historical cache I acquired I found a note of a person being removed from a rank after a completion of a duty position in the 60s. Beyond that I can't find any formal documentation of process.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AMBelow that it does not, an incident commander may be a 1st LT, and a person may make LTC without ever having held a command or even a primary staff job.

It's important to note that in NIMS/ICS be it firefighters, police, or military, the intent is that the person qualified to the IC job is rank agnostic as well.

Eclipse

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on December 30, 2021, 12:03:37 AMFor the top three grades in CAP, full colonel and up, grade actually seems to indicate level of authority.

Not really - the birds and stars may be commensurate with a given appointment, but they don't have the
weight of any authority beyond the appointment, or after the appointment is over.

A Colonel or General are going to have some level of continued authority based only on the inherent authority
of their commission, though even that has its limits, but in CAP, a former Wing CC or even National CC
could (and often do) cycle down to a lower echelon and be back under the command of someone of a lower
grade with less experience (and that doesn't even account for OPS, where that's commonplace).

Back to the real OP - I've seen documents that portended to have and require a specific staff billet for
a given grade, with similar limitations to how many of a given grade can exist.  I believe this was in the late 50's / early 60's era. 

As far as I know it's been the current free-range situation of today since at least the 90's.

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

A military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

ColonelJack

When I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

SarDragon

Quote from: ColonelJack on December 30, 2021, 11:02:41 AMWhen I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack

Somebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

N6RVT

Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2021, 02:50:07 AMA military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.

I originally had this long post about how the uniforms, meaningless rank and all the bling were just there to make someone feel important, keep paying dues, admission prices to training events and get bombarded with requests from national to donate even more while working hundreds or even thousands of hours of unpaid labor in order to justify the continued existence of a government funded flying club.

But it just sounded like sour grapes after failing my class 3, so I didn't.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: etodd on December 30, 2021, 02:50:07 AMA military wannabe's dream situation. Where one can become a Captain or Major, etc.,  with all the certs, ribbons, and other uniform accutrements. Yet, in reality, have no authority to match. Heck, they made me a Captain just because someone realized I was a CFII.  I have zero idea of what being a Captain means.

That's a comparison easily made to someone being a medical professional and receiving an entry military commission as an O-3. They still have to go through an initial training program, but it's not boot camp nor officer candidacy training.

In CAP, we do the same where you still need to complete your entry level training (L1, and L2P1) for the advanced rate promotion.

However, in CAP, you could switch positions very rapidly, and suddenly that college professor or licensed medical doctor Captain is now a squadron or group commander; prior experience not required. CAP duty positions and officer grades have no relationship other than certain duty positions permitting an advanced promotion (e.g., Group Commander to Major).

So I would say that 100% of the time, there really isn't any "rank" based on grade in CAP. It's entirely based on who is appointed to be in charge of X Activity in that moment. If I'm a 1st Lt, and I'm the Deputy Commander of the squadron, and my Commander (Capt) goes down, I'm next in line to take charge. It doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.

radioguy

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMIt doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.


Heh Heh... Reminds me of my time in the Army, when I frequently had to remind those with a higher rank that "This is my PAY GRADE (pointing to my sergeant stripes)...This is my RANK (pointing to my Military Police brassard).

Fun times.

Shuman 14

Quote from: radioguy on December 30, 2021, 04:17:12 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMIt doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.


Heh Heh... Reminds me of my time in the Army, when I frequently had to remind those with a higher rank that "This is my PAY GRADE (pointing to my sergeant stripes)...This is my RANK (pointing to my Military Police brassard).

Fun times.

Or as I liked to say, "Sir, please don't confuse your rank with my authority" as I pointed to my Brassard.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

jayleswo

Quote from: SarDragon on December 30, 2021, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: ColonelJack on December 30, 2021, 11:02:41 AMWhen I joined in 1981, and completed my Level I, the 2a for my promotion to second lieutenant had a line in the box:  Number authorized ___, Number appointed ___.

So there was some limit to the number of officers at each level that a unit could have at least until then.

Jack

Somebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.

When I joined in 1979, the CAPM 20-1 Organization of Civil Air Patrol (now renumbered) had Officer Grade Allocations which listed the grades for each position in a unit, if I remember correctly, right on the org charts. By that time, I think these were just guidelines but my unit commander did say that in earlier times, if you wanted to be promoted, you needed to be appointed to a vacant position authorized for that grade. Which just prompted a game of musical chairs where people who had already been promoted would move into an Assistant or other role to free up a slot for someone to be promoted, as they did not demote you once you had been promoted to a grade authorized for the position you held. Eventually, in the 1980's they did away with the idea and removed the suggested grades from the positions listed in the org charts. Interestingly, some vestige of this idea exists for the more senior NCO grades.

It seems that your position is actually your rank in the organization and has nothing to do with the grade you wear except, as a previous poster wrote, Wing or National Command (but not exclusively). Your grade could mean many things (prior command, formal completion of levels in the PD program, profession like doctor or teacher, skills such as pilot, etc.).

Anywyay, just thought I would contribute what I rememeber to this discussion for what it's worth.
John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP

SAR/DR MP, Mission Check Pilot Examiner, Master Observer
Earhart #1139 FEB 1982

Capt Thompson

Slightly off topic, but reminds me of my Army JROTC program in high school back in the 90's. It was the first year of the program, and we had over 300 Cadets in the battalion, all with the same experience, 0. They drilled us for about a month, swapping out who was in charge and giving each Cadet a chance to try and lead, and then one day we walked in and had a chain of command, from a Squad Leader (C/SGT) all the way up to the Battalion Commander (C/LTC). After that, if you wanted to promote, you had to fill a vacant position and you were given the rank of that position, if you moved down you were demoted to the rank of the new position. You could theoretically be in the program for 4 years and never promote if you didn't accept a higher position.

One day a recruiter from CAP came in, and about 30 Cadets went that Tuesday to check out the program. When the C/CPT's and C/MAJ's found out they wouldn't just be handed a grade, and had to work up from the bottom, they never returned.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Capt Thompson on December 30, 2021, 08:03:23 PMSlightly off topic, but reminds me of my Army JROTC program in high school back in the 90's. It was the first year of the program, and we had over 300 Cadets in the battalion, all with the same experience, 0. They drilled us for about a month, swapping out who was in charge and giving each Cadet a chance to try and lead, and then one day we walked in and had a chain of command, from a Squad Leader (C/SGT) all the way up to the Battalion Commander (C/LTC). After that, if you wanted to promote, you had to fill a vacant position and you were given the rank of that position, if you moved down you were demoted to the rank of the new position. You could theoretically be in the program for 4 years and never promote if you didn't accept a higher position.

One day a recruiter from CAP came in, and about 30 Cadets went that Tuesday to check out the program. When the C/CPT's and C/MAJ's found out they wouldn't just be handed a grade, and had to work up from the bottom, they never returned.

One of the benefits of ROTC-style programs is that you can have a variety of leadership opportunities that aren't necessarily "earned" but warranted based on the need of the unit or the availability of skill/potential within the cadet corps.

I made the mistake of raising my hand when a senior cadet (MSIV) walked into the classroom and asked, "Who here is good with Excel? Want to help me out?" A week later, I was the S3/NCO and was told I needed to go to the Supply Clerk and get a new insignia patch for C/SGT since my C/PFC insignia was no longer appropriate.

In other instances, if you became a Squad Leader, you were handed C/SGT. If you became a Platoon Leader, C/2LT. If you became Command Sergeant Major, your C/CSM. That's how it worked. You rotated around to teach you the role and understand all of the moving parts. Over 4 years, you would bounce around quite a bit. You'd go from C/PV2 to C/CPL to C/2LT to C/MAJ to C/CSM to C/CPT. That's just how it is.

Now, while I fully grasp the merit-based advancement of CAP, there are pros and cons to both methods. Sure, in one instance, maybe that person really isn't ready to jump from E-5 to O-1 like that. Maybe that haven't really displayed the maturity and the readiness to make that move, and their Cadre had limited options. Likewise, there are a number of cadets who are capable of advancing very rapidly in CAP, and maybe that 2-year timeline is very extreme for them and too slow for a squadron's needs. Then again, I see a lot of C/Capts who maybe earned the grade in testing but have absolutely no capability to come remotely close to what I would expect of a 16-year-old cadet officer, and in some cases not even that of a 16-year-old C/SSgt.

Bottom line: CAP members might have completed the testing, but that doesn't mean they're going to meet the true expectations of the insignia they wear; often only those of the person clicking the button in eServices. Similarly, just because a person holds a position doesn't mean they're actually suited for that role, and their grade is rarely an indication of readiness or prior experience.


ColonelJack

Quote from: SarDragon on December 30, 2021, 12:22:13 PMSomebody was using a very outdated form. I don't recall quotas even in 1970, when I first became a CAP officer. Besides, promotions are on a From 2, not a 2a.

I stand corrected.  Jeez, it was 40 years ago.  I'm lucky if I remember what I had for breakfast today.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

NIN



Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2021, 02:47:52 PMSo I would say that 100% of the time, there really isn't any "rank" based on grade in CAP. It's entirely based on who is appointed to be in charge of X Activity in that moment. If I'm a 1st Lt, and I'm the Deputy Commander of the squadron, and my Commander (Capt) goes down, I'm next in line to take charge. It doesn't matter what any of the grades are on the org chart below. I've had my moments of reminding people three grades higher than me where they sit in the chain. Today, I have six officers senior-in-grade to me under my supervision. That, in no way, gives them a higher rank.

Pretty much this times 100.

Rank in CAP substantially represents professional development and potential* to assume roles of greater responsibility.

(* I say "potential" because not everybody who makes it to,  say,  Maj or Lt Col,  has the actual wherewithal or capability to assume greater responsibilities. Many do,  many do not. Your grade insignia is only part of the equation, usually.)

When I returned to CAP in 2013 from "retirement," I worked at a squadron as the leadership officer,  backstopping a much newer but very capable Deputy for Cadets. Confused people would defer to me because I had an oak leaf vs the deputy's railroad tracks. I'd point to him and say "that's my boss.  Talk to him" on whatever point they were looking for that didn't pertain to my job.   My scope was military leadership development and training for the cadets.  20-1 (at the time) diagrammed my left and right range limits in that duty position,  and you can bet I stayed inside those.

 Now,  did I provide wise counsel to the CDC and CC? Yes. But it was 100% clear who was in charge. They would sometimes ask for my opinion,  and I'd give it,  but if the eventual marching orders weren't what I suggested,  I'd still salute & execute.

I think a some people in CAP tend to get a little wrapped around the axle about what their grade actually confers. They need to be disabused of the notion that their grade means much outside of their unit and duty assignment.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
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RiverAux

Most of you all sort of forgot about the cadet program where grade does tie in very closely with responsibility.  Thats not nothing.

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2021, 06:28:46 PMThats not nothing.

It's not much, though, since it's really just paper suggestions that are largely
ignored (or of which Unit leaders are unaware).

On top of which, cadet "authority" is, for the most part, just a fiction anyway
of the leadership training aspect of the CP.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: RiverAux on December 31, 2021, 06:28:46 PMMost of you all sort of forgot about the cadet program where grade does tie in very closely with responsibility.  Thats not nothing.

That's only a recent provision in R60-1, though.

You can still have a cadet commander who is a brand-new C/2d Lt with other higher-grade cadet officers in the unit. You can have a first sergeant who is a C/MSgt and higher-grade cadet NCOs elsewhere. You can have a unit where there is a first sergeant, no cadet commander, and a cadet officer as a flight commander (who technically isn't really a higher rank than the first sergeant based on the org chart).

The key is for the unit to make their cadet program work and make sense. But back in the senior corps, where the actual accountability exists from a compliance/legality standpoint, no, grade does not equal rank whatsoever.