What is the Geneva Convention status of CAP members?

[Майор Хаткевич]

The "official" govt is a signatory. The drug cartels that actually run Mexico are not.

Major Lord

Neither are the gangs here within the US. What's your point?

Are you suggesting that gangs control the USA?

Major Lord

In a very similar fashion as in Mexico, definitely not the way you describe it though. Neither here nor there.

[BTCS1*]

I personally would eat my gun before being allowing myself to be taken prisoner by Canadians.....

Major Lord

+1

[Майор Хаткевич]

I personally would eat my gun before being allowing myself to be taken prisoner by Canadians.....

Major Lord

+1

And your great warrior thinking is...?

[Major Lord]

I could not face the horrors of having to eat their horrible foods ( Back-bacon, "flap-Jacks" etc.) and tremble at the tortures only the evil Canadians could devise! Hey, did you know the word "gullible" is not even in the dictionary?

Major Lord

[JoeTomasone]

If this base gets overrun by insurgents, the last thing I will be thinking about is my Geneva Convention Status; mostly because it will be the last thing that they will be thinking of as well.

[scooter]

We were issued a GCID card when in Vietnam. We figured it must have been for the GC cafeteria if we were ever captured. However, this proved false based on my classmates experiences in the H Hilton. It was just extra weight we carried around, useless.

[lordmonar]

The only thing the GCID card ever gave you was the basic information that all PWs must provide their captors....and that is all.

You get GC protection based on the LOAC...not on whether you have a card or not.

A country will or will not follow the GC based on their own motivations and circumstances.  Even the U.S. does not have a very good record with regard to the GC even to this day.

Take that for what it is worth.

Beyond a philosophical discussion......this is all just pipe dreams anyway.  Is it something that leaders should know?  Sure...is it something anyone should worry about?  NO....even when I was on AD we only discussed LOAC and our GC rights and responsibilities once a year...and it was always a topic for the beer drinking sessions.

[JohnKachenmeister]

What I said was true, no enemy of the US has ever observed the GC with respect to American prisoners, but...

I would not be so quick to judge Mexico's military vis-a-vis an inadvertent encounter by a CAP aircrew on the south side of the Rio Grande.

I visited Acapulco a few years ago, and there is a Mexican Air Force base just north of the city.  Since I speak pretty good Spanish, I started chatting up a couple of Tenientes over a beer.  They knew a lot about the Civil Air Patrol, and definitely more than American air force lieutenants generally know.  They also exhibited a high level of professional respect towards me, (I was a captain then, and in Spanish adding "Mi" to the rank when addressing a superior officer is a mark of respect... i.e., "Mi capitan.") and told me that their search-and-rescue training was out of a CAP manual translated into  Spanish.  They also had stories of tracking ELT's of crashed Gringos in the deserts and mountains. 

I don't know how we would rate with El Ejercito, but the Fuerza Aerea de Mexico seems to like us.

[RiverAux]

It's all in title 10, and title 14 for the CGAUX.

CAP members don't deploy or augment (and don't anybody start touting the VSAF-thing: any job you're doing wearing dockers isn't going to put you in vicinity of a hostile force, and historically it's been a while since the bad-guys have conducted POW round-ups at Wright-Pat or Lackland.....)

IMO, your SDF Pal is nothing more than an off-brand wannabee doing the my-quasi-military-organization-is-better-than-yours routine.  His "SDF Boss" is probably some 500 lb self-appointed six-star general who's "commission" was printed on the same equipt you friends ID card came from.

The proof in the pudding is when he gets hurt doing his SDF-thing on "official business," who foots the doctor-bill??  Betcha he and his ins. company does.

While the SDF members comments as represented by the initial post leave a lot to be desired, you do realize that you're doing the same exact thing, right?  That is making extremely negative comments about an organization that you apparently don't know much about. 

[HGjunkie]

I could not face the horrors of having to eat their horrible foods ( Back-bacon, "flap-Jacks" etc.) and tremble at the tortures only the evil Canadians could devise! Hey, did you know the word "gullible" is not even in the dictionary?

Major Lord

Very funny Major. Very funny.

[skymaster]

Well, I would hope that we might still have at least SOME military status legally, or else certain situations in relation to CAP could come back to haunt the organization.  For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) and perform drill movements and marching in a military manner in public, with any type firearm (to include ANY facsimile or deactivated firearm, including anything that resembles a firearm, such as the honor guard rifles that we use), are 1) members of the armed forces of the state or of the United States,  2) members of the organized militia and 3) persons in a secondary school or college taking part in an accredited course wherein such items are being used for educational purposes as a part of a state approved curriculum.  Otherwise, they are restricted to from wearing military uniforms or articles of such, and are only allowed to drill in public with swords. (Violation of such is a misdemeanor that can land a person in prison for just less than one year and result in a stiff fine for the first offense).  Worse, if the person providing such "firearm" provides such to a minor, that is a FELONY that can result in a 3 to 5 year jail term.  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?   

[davidsinn]

Well, I would hope that we might still have at least SOME military status legally, or else certain situations in relation to CAP could come back to haunt the organization.  For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) and perform drill movements and marching in a military manner in public, with any type firearm (to include ANY facsimile or deactivated firearm, including anything that resembles a firearm, such as the honor guard rifles that we use), are 1) members of the armed forces of the state or of the United States,  2) members of the organized militia and 3) persons in a secondary school or college taking part in an accredited course wherein such items are being used for educational purposes as a part of a state approved curriculum.  Otherwise, they are restricted to from wearing military uniforms or articles of such, and are only allowed to drill in public with swords. (Violation of such is a misdemeanor that can land a person in prison for just less than one year and result in a stiff fine for the first offense).  Worse, if the person providing such "firearm" provides such to a minor, that is a FELONY that can result in a 3 to 5 year jail term.  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?

We fall under the US Code as an Aux of the AF.

[PHall]

Well, I would hope that we might still have at least SOME military status legally, or else certain situations in relation to CAP could come back to haunt the organization.  For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) and perform drill movements and marching in a military manner in public, with any type firearm (to include ANY facsimile or deactivated firearm, including anything that resembles a firearm, such as the honor guard rifles that we use), are 1) members of the armed forces of the state or of the United States,  2) members of the organized militia and 3) persons in a secondary school or college taking part in an accredited course wherein such items are being used for educational purposes as a part of a state approved curriculum.  Otherwise, they are restricted to from wearing military uniforms or articles of such, and are only allowed to drill in public with swords. (Violation of such is a misdemeanor that can land a person in prison for just less than one year and result in a stiff fine for the first offense).  Worse, if the person providing such "firearm" provides such to a minor, that is a FELONY that can result in a 3 to 5 year jail term.  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?

You're mixing apples and oranges here. The Geneva Accords are not a State Law. They just state how personnel should be treated if captured.

My opinion on this question, and I've sat through more then a couple Law of Armed Conflict classes, is that CAP members would not be POW's since we are not armed.
We would be "civilian" detainees.

[Old Timer]

Skymaster,

What is the Geneva Convention status of CAP members?  Sorry, none. 

You belong to a private membership organization, a corporation with a Congressional Charter and Air Force links, so move off this track.

CAP is the Civil Air Patrol -- the premier civilian air search and rescue organization in the world, take pride in that, and move on. 

While its organization and leadership as a whole leaves much to be desired, its SAR training and execution protocols is a world standard for tactical SAR. When coupled with the USAF and USCG Addendums to the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue (IAMSAR) Manual, it is the format used by most search agencies around the world.

Since you will not be doing anything on or over "hostile territory" (and according with IAMSAR, SAR flights over international boundaries are permissible, as long as the RCC (USAF for CONUS and USCG for off-shore operations – like the Bahamas - are advised and approve), don't worry about your "Geneva Convention status." 

Worry more about your level of personal training competence, and what you are doing to improve it.

Enjoy that, and "go do good work".

[Ned]

Skymaster,

What is the Geneva Convention status of CAP members?  Sorry, none. 

You belong to a private membership organization, a corporation with a Congressional Charter and Air Force links, so move off this track.

Non concur, on a couple of different levels.

First, everyone has a Geneve Convention "status" - even civilians.  (hint: "civilian" is a classification under the Third GC, first adopted in 1929 and subsequently updated.)

Second, under any "reasonable scenario"  (which is to say any sort of scenario in which the US is engaged in an armed conflict and a CAP member could conceivably fall into enemy hands), CAP members would almost certainly fall under Article 4 and be entitled to POW status as either civilians performing non-combat support missions, a militia, or a "volunteer corps."  All of which get POW status.

As a practical matter, pretty much anyone who falls into enemy hands wearing a military-style uniform is going to be interned (or worse).  And I have some sympathy for any enemy tribunal trying to figure out how to classify all of the SDF members, Red Cross Workers, AAFES employees, unofficial militias, sheriff SWAT teams, DoD civilians, and God knows what else they may come across.  And Article 5 requires capturing powers to treat everyone as a POW until a competent tribunal assigns them some other status.

But as others have pointed out, it is pretty much an academic question since not a single enemy of the US has ever fully honored the GC in this regard.

But hey, I like academic discussions as much as the next guy.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, I would hope that we might still have at least SOME military status legally, or else certain situations in relation to CAP could come back to haunt the organization.  For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) and perform drill movements and marching in a military manner in public, with any type firearm (to include ANY facsimile or deactivated firearm, including anything that resembles a firearm, such as the honor guard rifles that we use), are 1) members of the armed forces of the state or of the United States,  2) members of the organized militia and 3) persons in a secondary school or college taking part in an accredited course wherein such items are being used for educational purposes as a part of a state approved curriculum.  Otherwise, they are restricted to from wearing military uniforms or articles of such, and are only allowed to drill in public with swords. (Violation of such is a misdemeanor that can land a person in prison for just less than one year and result in a stiff fine for the first offense).  Worse, if the person providing such "firearm" provides such to a minor, that is a FELONY that can result in a 3 to 5 year jail term.  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?

You're mixing apples and oranges here. The Geneva Accords are not a State Law. They just state how personnel should be treated if captured.

My opinion on this question, and I've sat through more then a couple Law of Armed Conflict classes, is that CAP members would not be POW's since we are not armed.
We would be "civilian" detainees.

You are wrong.  Have you ever read the Protocols on Prisoners?

Civilians accompanying an armed force are POW's.

Civilian internees are civilian sympathizers with the enemy or civilians residing in an enemy country occupied by beligerent forces detained for security or humanitarian reasons.

[Short Field]

Civilians accompanying an armed force are POW's.

A lot of them were named after General Hooker during the Civil War.  I don't believe they were treated as POWs nor would be today.

[JoeTomasone]

For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) ......

  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?

Our authorization to wear the uniform is codified in Federal law, which trumps State law.

[a2capt]

Our authorization to wear the uniform is codified in Federal law, which trumps State law.

Except as it would seem, when it has to do with certain sought after botanical items.. ;-)
But thats another thread to search for.

[ZigZag911]

How on earth are CAP personnel going to get captured by enemy forces?

For that matter, why?

Assuming an invasion, wouldn't the enemy have done its intelligence homework, particularly regarding "Order of Battle" type info?

I would hope, nay, even pray, that an invading force had a lot more on their plate to worry about from US Armed Forces (known on CT as "RM") to bother running about the countryside rounding up CAP members.

Of course, so many of us are lt col and above, the other side might be deluded (as some of us are, occasionally!) into believing we're important!

Say, do you think letting CAP have generals, colonels and lt colonels in such numbers is a master deception plan on the part of Ma Blue?!?