New to CAP - Question About Rank

[Eclipse]

Captain Katen,

I started reading this and thought I would disagree, and by the end found myself pounding the floor with my cue in agreement.

To the term limits, I can tell you the GLR Region CC issued a memorandum about 4 years ago (I held a copy in my hand, so I know it isn't heresay), that directed Commander term limits be 4 years, no more than 6.  He reset the clocks on the sitting CC's and in IL, at least, has stuck to this from the Wing CC all the way down.  I had assumed this was a NHQ directive, but maybe not - a search of the KB doesn't show anything about it - I'll point a question at them and see.

As to that pretender to the ROTC - ROTFLMAO!  Hilarious!

You should try ROCKing!  It's awesome!

[arajca]

I personally think the biggest problem that CAP has is all of the people who join that are in it for what they can get out of it. CAP isn't about what will I look like, or what uniform will I get to wear, or how high in the rank structure can I go, or what do I need to do to make myself look good, it is a volunteer organization that helps to support civilization. Yes we are the Air Force Auxiliary so we should at least make an attempt to follow a little protocol but lets not let the protocol interfere with the mission.

Unless someone can get something out of an activity or organization, they won't participate. That something may be a piece of cloth (or several pieces) on their chest. It may be silver oak leafs on their shoulder. It may be a scholarship or extra points when applying to a military academy. It may be a warm feeling that you've helped someone. Everyone's motivation differs as does their activity level.

[dankaten]

 Unless someone can get something out of an activity or organization, they won't participate. That something may be a piece of cloth (or several pieces) on their chest. It may be silver oak leafs on their shoulder. It may be a scholarship or extra points when applying to a military academy. It may be a warm feeling that you've helped someone. Everyone's motivation differs as does their activity level.
[/quote]

That may be, but then I have to ask, what do you get out of going to church? What is wrong with getting a feeling that you might be helping out the community or your nation? If you must be in it for what you can get out of it, how about a few pieces of silver?
It is not my belief that you should not get anything out of CAP. I submit requests for awards for my seniors and cadets quite often. It isn't so they can get something out of it as much as a show of how much we appreciate them. That is the difference between being in it to help and being in it for what you can get out of it. If they were in it for the awards and the decorations then I feel sorry for them.

[dankaten]

Captain Katen,

I started reading this and thought I would disagree, and by the end found myself pounding the floor with my cue in agreement.

To the term limits, I can tell you the GLR Region CC issued a memorandum about 4 years ago (I held a copy in my hand, so I know it isn't heresay), that directed Commander term limits be 4 years, no more than 6.  He reset the clocks on the sitting CC's and in IL, at least, has stuck to this from the Wing CC all the way down.  I had assumed this was a NHQ directive, but maybe not - a search of the KB doesn't show anything about it - I'll point a question at them and see.

As to that pretender to the ROTC - ROTFLMAO!  Hilarious!

You should try ROCKing!  It's awesome!

Well thank you very much but I am not really sure what "ROCK" stands for. I just have a tendency to go off the deep end when I hear someone trying to put themselves above the rest just because of who they are or the position they hold.
As far as I know SWRegion does not have any limits on Command. I have a fellow Commander who has been in that position for over 5 years. It isn't that I would not give the position up. I ask people all the time if they would like the position and they keep turning me down. Some say it is because "SUCKER" is stenciled on my forehead. I consider it a priviledge and an honor to serve as commander of my squadron. Some day they will get sick of me and ask me to stand down, or I will have something that comes up that will not enable me to continue, but until then I just do the best I can and I won't sit around waiting on the ribbons to determine if I will do it. It is recommended that if you take the position of Commander that you keep it for at least 2 years so that you don't have a bunch of turnover in the squadron ( not good for morale).

[Eclipse]

Knowledge base responded - term limits, at least in this case, are a regional policy, so
YMMV with regards to how long you can serve as a CC.

In GLR, anyway, it is 4 years no more than 6.

[Cmdbuddy]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

I know this is from several pages back, but I was just reading this thread for the first time and was a bit disgusted by this comment.

First off, you know nothing about Lt Horn, nor anybody else on this board.  For all you knew at the time, he could have just turned 21 with 7 years in the Cadet Program and achieved his Eaker award.  That's definitely nothing to scoff at. 

And even if that wasn't the case- even if he has been a SM for 7 years and was only a 1st Lt, that's not for you to make a judgement call on, either.  My dad's been in for a very long time (longer than cadets have been alive, IIRC), and just recently made Major.  Does that make him a bad SM?  I don't think so.  Let's not negate the fact that he owns his own business, has raised a family, and receives Outstandings on most, if not all, inspections and SAREVAL's in his area. 

I know this was a few weeks ago, but I really don't believe you adequately apologized for this comment.  I found it quite offensive, and I'm not even a Senior Member.  So, maybe you should learn a little more about people before passing huge judgements like that,  sir.

[Eclipse]

First, I suspect that if Lt. Horn took actual offense, he'd flame me himself.
He looks like he is very capable of defending himself if necessary.

Second, its disingenuous to include somehow accuse me of insulting your father
when he's not even privy to this discussion.

The offense >I< took to the statement was that someone who hadn't achieved the grade himself was saying Capt was "easy".  If a Capt, Major, or Lt. Col. who came up through the ranks legit wants to make that discussion, fine, but at least attain the grade before you start claiming it's so "easy".

And I'll restate my assertion that the excuse that I was "too busy with real work to develop my own CAP career is BS".

If you look at the program as a whole, it is designed to build leaders from within.
You're >supposed< to go to an SLS & UCC >before< you command a unit, CLC >before< you move higher than that.  Tech ratings and professional development aren't just for those haven't been "lucky" enough to be standing in the right place when CC jobs are handed out.

How can you guide the CAP career of other members if you aren't doing the work yourself?

None of this is rocket science, but we all know plenty of both cadets and seniors who stopped progressing because they were too busy doing "real work".

You know when this becomes the biggest problem?  During the back half of your CAP career. A lot of the s-hot pilots I know figure they can get by without anything but bare-minimum pilot related work, and then one day they can't get a medical anymore, and their peers are all branch directors or staffers who worked the program and rose to authority, and they are left standing on the sidelines, no longer able to participate.

And that's when the real problems start - 60-year old Capt's w/ 20 years in and no ES qual's or professional development who sit around telling everyone how much they know.

No, I don't think I owe anyone an apology for my opinion anymore than Lt. Horn did for his.

[DeputyDog]

You can take all the professional development courses and complete the entire SM program up to Level V, but you'll stay at the same grade in CAP: whatever NCO grade you hold or held last in the military.  You will not be able to promote in CAP.

The only thing I see the NCO thing holding you back from are certain activities that specify a certain SM officer grade to attend, such as National Staff College which requires the grade of Major to attend (a requirement which even the National Commander can't waive for a SM, according to the regs).

There are actually a few other things that will hold back a Senior Member NCO. They will not get past Level III, let alone even consider going to NSC. In order to complete Level IV, you either take SOS or RSC. A Senior Member NCO can do neither, as you have to be a Captain to take SOS, or you have to be a First Lieutenant (provided you get the waiver) to take RSC. This is assuming that the Senior Member NCO had not done the CAPR 50-17 Attachment 2 equivalents while in service.

I know this topic is a bit dated, I have been lurking awhile and felt it was time to post!

[Eclipse]

If they're in BDUs, I'm in ACUs.

Then you're out of uniform, plain and simple, and likely in violation of CAP regs.

We have >affinity< with the military, but no direct conection.

[ZigZag911]

How can you guide the CAP career of other members if you aren't doing the work yourself?

None of this is rocket science, but we all know plenty of both cadets and seniors who stopped progressing because they were too busy doing "real work".

You know when this becomes the biggest problem?  During the back half of your CAP career. A lot of the s-hot pilots I know figure they can get by without anything but bare-minimum pilot related work, and then one day they can't get a medical anymore, and their peers are all branch directors or staffers who worked the program and rose to authority, and they are left standing on the sidelines, no longer able to participate.

And that's when the real problems start - 60-year old Capt's w/ 20 years in and no ES qual's or professional development who sit around telling everyone how much they know.

Actually, another solution has been devised in the recent past to address this situation: getting appointment as a wing (or even region!) commander without ANY prior command experience, CAP or military.

Not a solution I personally support, because you put it so well when you asked how an officer could guide others in an area where he (or she!) lacked experience.

[ncc1912]

This next comment may offend some people, or it may not. We'll see. The CAP is not a recruiting tool for the USAF. It is not a recruiting tool for anything. But we've all admitted that a lot of cadets will go off and join a service when they graduate high school. What is the harm in letting them know that there are other things out there? That's basically doing by wearing the ACUs. I know you're all saying "Wait... this guy's a RECRUITER and he's in CAP! GET HIM OUT HE'S ONLY THERE TO GET MORE CANNON FODDER!" I will assure you that is not the case. I'll admit that was my initial interest in CAP - but that is the last thing on my mind. I love interacting with the kids - watching them learn and grow as airmen and as young adults. We've got some kids that are in our sq who just need a good rolemodel in their lives - I fill that void. I'm making a difference in these kids lives and that makes me feel good. That's my interest in CAP. If a kid asks about military service - I'll answer him honestly and to the best of my abilities. But I could care less if any CAP kids join or not. If they are going to join I want them to know that there is more out there... (waiting patiently for the backlash....)

...No backlash here.

First off, I'll say that I'm not in the Guard.  I am active duty (enlisted) Air Force.  I am also a former cadet.  Short of going into my CAP biography, I will state that should suffice for this forum.

Also, like you, I don't see CAP as a vessel for USAF recruitment.  Besides, we have a large amount of cadets that go on to join the Marine Corps and not the Air Force. 

If you have happend to read some of my other postings, I agree with some of your observations of CAP's rank "system" and commend your search for definitive clarification.  If anything, I hope you got the information you needed from all the previous postings.  If not, as a (master) personnel officer and a (technician) professional development officer, I'll try to answer any more questions you may have.

Some have argued that there is a conflict of interest in the idea of an Armed Forces recruiter wearing his/her service's uniform as an added "option" to the CAP uniform as a CAP member.  I disagree, but you must keep in mind, at least as far as the Reserves (it don't know about Guard) are concerned, if they are assigned to support CAP and/or CAP-USAF they can't be CAP members, as well, and therefore cannot were the CAP uniform anyway.  If it is OK'ed for you to do it buy whomever needs to OK it IAW with CAP Regulations and your Guard directives, then... 'to each their own,' I say.  Go for it.

In the AD Air Force, if I were to go to an encampment I could get a Permissive TDY (temporary duty); basically, free leave.  These are not orders, but going to the encampment on this premise, I am going as a Air Force member and provided I don't have a position in the encampment chain-of-command or staff that would warrent a position of an officer, it would be perfectly acceptable on both parts (AF and CAP) to wear my AF uniform.  Basically, what I am saying is that I have made it an option for myself.

That being said, I offer you this counter-proposal: 

It is obvious that you enjoy your job as a recruiter and you value your service to CAP and its cadets.  Why not combine these and become a CAP recruiter (after you earn your other technician rating, of course)?

In addition to attracting members to CAP and its programs, some of the duties of a CAP recruiting and retention officer are exactly that; being knowledgeable and providing career options to our cadets.  It would mean that you would have to do some research on the other branches of the military, civilian jobs and colleges, including knowing who has what jobs and being familiar with quality of life issues, but you would be able to satisfy both of your needs.  In this aspect, you would become a career counselor.

I too enjoy my job for the Air Force, but have a lot more vested time in CAP than you, as a new member.  That's why, given the choice, I would choose the CAP uniform.  If I am wearing my CAP service dress blues, it's usually obvious at a glance that I am military or, at least, prior-military.  Again, it's a personal preference.

Explore your options.  Consider the alternatives.

Speaking as a CAP recruiter and one who likes to see others take on this challenging specialty; if you were to choose this specialty track, I would like to hear that you did it wearing the CAP uniform (NCO or Officer) to attract people to our organization.  I can't help but think it may be able to help you, indirectly, as a Guard recruiter, as well. 

I welcome any comment you or anyone else may have.

[afgeo4]

I apologize if this was covered before, but... from what I recollect, you have to be E-7 or above to join as CAP NCO.  The only grade options on the application are MSgt, SMSgt, and CMSgt.  I, in my own time a former NCO (E-5) was told that one had to be a SNCO to join as enlisted.  Is that all wrong? 

[Pylon]

Is that all wrong? 

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

[Psicorp]

Is that all wrong? 

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

I can't resist stating the obvious here...but since we follow the Air Force grade structure, the lowest grade a non-commissioned member can hold is Staff Sargent (four stripes)...because that is the lowest NCO grade there is.  Three stripes is a Senior Airman, which is not an NCO.

[Pylon]

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

I can't resist stating the obvious here...but since we follow the Air Force grade structure, the lowest grade a non-commissioned member can hold is Staff Sargent (four stripes)...because that is the lowest NCO grade there is.  Three stripes is a Senior Airman, which is not an NCO.

CAP Grades and CAP NCOs are not the same as USAF NCOs.

At first, you would think this would be obvious.  But consider that the Air Force isn't the only branch that has NCOs.  In some branches, as an E-4, you could be an NCO.  In addition, an individual could be a retired Sgt. from the USAF, from before the USAF eliminated E-4 NCOs.

CAP allows all NCOs from the US Armed Forces, current, former, or retired, to hold CAP NCO grade. To provide for the E-4 NCOs, either from former USAF service or from other branches, the "three stripe" grade insignia in CAP is "Sergeant" and is an NCO.

Again, check out CAPR 35-5 and the NCO chevrons in CAPM 39-1.

Hope that answers your question.

[Psicorp]

Okay, I stand corrected on this one.  It is E-4 and above, for some reason I thought that CAP had followed suit with the Air Force in calling E-4 Senior Airman.

On another note, though.  My squadron is fortunate to have a Senior Member who is prior enlisted military (E-5).   My squadron CC understood the regs to that state that he is the promoting authority for NCOs to mean that he can promote an E-4 to E-5.   The regs state that NCO grades are not recorded at National.  The problem with this is (in my mind) that the NCO insignia worn are actual USAF insignia and can only be worn by someone who has earned that grade in military service.

I've been batting around the idea of a CAP specific NCO structure to include promotionable NCOs, following the Level system of Officers.  This way the NCO rank progression would follow the same Level progression as the Officers (E-4 through E-9 being the same number of grades as 2LT through Col.)  With CMSGT being equal in "status" as full Col.

An idea for a CAP distinct NCO insignia would be something like: changing the field behind/around the stripes to the CAP blue color and replacing the star with a white triangle and red prop.  (I'd attach the picture of the one I've made up, but don't know how).

Just an idea (my appologies to those who are cringing at yet ANOTHER uniform change idea, but I do think that a lack of a promotional NCO structure is what's keeping people who'd rather be NCOs from joining/participating).

[arajca]

I don't know if you've heard of it, but on Civil Air Portal there is a discussion about just such a thing.

[ZigZag911]

I've been batting around the idea of a CAP specific NCO structure to include promotionable NCOs, following the Level system of Officers.  This way the NCO rank progression would follow the same Level progression as the Officers (E-4 through E-9 being the same number of grades as 2LT through Col.)  With CMSGT being equal in "status" as full Col.

Just an idea (my appologies to those who are cringing at yet ANOTHER uniform change idea, but I do think that a lack of a promotional NCO structure is what's keeping people who'd rather be NCOs from joining/participating).

This has come up many times before, but is still an idea worth pursuing....perhaps if it's run up enough flag poles, someone will finally salute it!

[gallagheria]

So why doesn't the CAP follow standard military protocol for commissions? If they have a college degree and maybe completed some sort of training course, then make them officers; otherwise make them enlisted.

I am looking into the CAP and find this interesting.

[Pylon]

So why doesn't the CAP follow standard military protocol for commissions? If they have a college degree and maybe completed some sort of training course, then make them officers; otherwise make them enlisted.

I am looking into the CAP and find this interesting.

There are already a number of discussions on the merits and demerits of such proposals.  Use the search function to find a handful of them.