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CAP Rank structure

Started by RiverAux, July 30, 2007, 04:18:47 AM

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Which system would you prefer to see CAP use to determine rank.  

Current system (Mixture of prof development, advanced grades for certain skills, etc.)
33 (37.5%)
CG Aux system where rank is based upon highest admin position held within org
3 (3.4%)
System where rank is based upon your level in the CAP ES structure
5 (5.7%)
Eliminate all CAP rank and insignia
4 (4.5%)
No preference.  I'll wear anything they tell me too.
2 (2.3%)
Keep mostly same system Flight Officers for all members except give commissioned grades for those currently holding command or higher echelon staff positions
11 (12.5%)
Same as current system except eliminate all advanced ranks for skills & prior service and make it all CAP prof development based
6 (6.8%)
Keep current system except make professional development system much harder therby making it harder and take longer to advance in rank.
24 (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Hawk200

Quote from: arajca on July 31, 2007, 10:51:13 PM
I know several military NCO's who are in CAP. Only two are CAP nco's. The others are officers (Capt - Lt Col). What unique role do nco's play in CAP that they cannot play as officers? So far, no one has been able to answer that question. 

Unique role? How about showing that they have experience in the system that many cadets aspire to? That they've been places where cadets want to go. Even a CAP officer with military background doesn't show that. The NCO does by virtue of their stripes. They've invested a great deal of time earning that grade, a lot of experience comes with it.

Which is another reason why CAP should never consider trying to mint its own NCO's. They would never be close to be on a par with military NCO's. They would simply be lacking the experience necessary to have even close to the same leadership skills.

What about them is so threatening to you that you would force them to take the officer grades? And why shouldn't they have a choice? NCO's in CAP is a system that gives cadets a look at the military. We can do the same things with only officers, but they will never see the enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military.

Hawk200

Quote from: SarDragon on August 01, 2007, 12:58:49 AM
What it does need is better enforcement of the existing rules, and a better indoctrination of new members about the system. The latter is easy; the former not so much. As long as there are people in charge (declining to call them leaders) who abuse the system for the gain of individuals, there will be problems. Adding an NCO corps will not solve that problem.

Adding an NCO corps isn't designed to alter the chain of command in CAP from what we've been told here. We all know that there really isn't much of one anyway. NCO's would present leadership example. Might even rub off on some of us so called "officers".

Besides, what if you have a guy who made E-8 or E9 in the military, retired as such. Maybe he just doesn't want to deal with going through a new rank system. I've known a couple like that. Why shouldn't they be "Sergeant Jones" if they want to be? Why look down on them? They won't be any less competent as an observer, or doing admin, or teaching Aerospace while wearing NCO stripes.

It's quite true that adding an NCO corp won't solve any problems. Neither will throwing out the system. You just give someone a new system to learn how to abuse. And there is no such thing as a system you can't cheat. Some may be harder than others, but they all have shortcomings.

Pylon

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 01:56:33 AM
We can do the same things with only officers, but they will never see the enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military.

Enlisted leadership of what in CAP?  In CAP, we have no junior enlisted.  We have no "backbone" of CAP in the form of an enlisted force, while officers serve as only management.

In CAP, our "senior member officers" perform the duties of airmen, NCOs, and officers.  So when the uncommon CAP NCO gets thrown into the mix, who exactly are they leading that demonstrates to cadets this "enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military"?   They're not leading other senior members - there's no senior member junior enlisted.  And they're not leading cadets in that sense - that's the job of the cadet staff.  So....   ?
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

ZigZag911

Our lack of an NCO corps causes, in fact, the blurring of the officer role to the point we have reached....that the rank is virtually meaningless within AP itself, which is of course the only place it ought to matter.

So many people on this board (echoing sentiments I hear out in the real world) proclaim again and again that they don't want to command, don't want senior level staff responsibilities, want to remain at the squadron forever "where the action is".

This is fine -- basically what is offered by these members is a description of the role of the NCO, and, to a far lesser degree, the company grade officer.

When CAP had grade allocations based on position, composite and senior squadrons could have two lt col (commander & deputy or DCS; composite DCC was limited to major, as was, IIRC, ops officer). Cadet sqdn CCs maxed out at major, and no other field grade officers were allocated to cadet squadrons.

Colonels & majors that aren't in senior leadership roles should not be assigned to squadrons. In this I really believe Iowa has the right idea. Their 'unit of membership' ought to be wing or, if available, group....even if the geographic distances are great.....where possible, it is ideal for these field grade officers to serve as staff officers for the higher headquarters....where distance or other factors prevent this, there is no reason they could not attend squadron meetings & activities as instructors, mentors, trainers and the like....but they should not be staff officers (other than in extraordinary circumstances) in squadrons.

Finally, all CAP grade should be earned....and it should be challenging, and require commitment of time and effort. Under the right circumstances, following this concept, I could see some CAP members without prior military service earning (and advancing) in the NCO grades...particularly former cadets.

Hawk200

Quote from: Pylon on August 01, 2007, 04:08:51 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 01:56:33 AM
We can do the same things with only officers, but they will never see the enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military.

Enlisted leadership of what in CAP?  In CAP, we have no junior enlisted.  We have no "backbone" of CAP in the form of an enlisted force, while officers serve as only management.

In CAP, our "senior member officers" perform the duties of airmen, NCOs, and officers.  So when the uncommon CAP NCO gets thrown into the mix, who exactly are they leading that demonstrates to cadets this "enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military"?   They're not leading other senior members - there's no senior member junior enlisted.  And they're not leading cadets in that sense - that's the job of the cadet staff.  So....   ?

You missed the point completely. They would see in our NCO's what they would see in the military. It would be one of the different concepts of leadership, not leadership due to a rank bracket, but what they will see in the future. Probably hard to explain the way I see it, but it's important that they understand NCOs. The leadership is primarily by example, which military NCO's tend to excel at.

Many cadets need to understand some of the C&C concerning NCO's as well. We had our CAP-RAP NCO visit last night at our meeting, and the DCC asked the commander and myself when the cadets were supposed to salute or call the room to attention. The commander and I looked at her completely puzzled. Apparently, cadets from other units told our cadets that they had to do this. What are those cadets going to do when they get to the "real" military and do this? They're going to embarrass themselves, and our organization.

NCO's can do any of the specialty tracks in CAP with the same competence that an officer can. Why force them to do anything that they may not want to? If you became a commander of a CAP unit, would you tell all you NCO's that they had to become officers or leave? It would be a foolish move, you'd be pushing out people that are willing to contribute.

As far as the "chain of command" goes, any officer that thinks an NCO is there to "order around" is a fool. CAP officers may have to deal with real live NCO's if they do things other than just working in their unit. It would be good for them understand those customs too.

arajca

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 01, 2007, 04:08:51 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 01:56:33 AM
We can do the same things with only officers, but they will never see the enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military.

Enlisted leadership of what in CAP?  In CAP, we have no junior enlisted.  We have no "backbone" of CAP in the form of an enlisted force, while officers serve as only management.

In CAP, our "senior member officers" perform the duties of airmen, NCOs, and officers.  So when the uncommon CAP NCO gets thrown into the mix, who exactly are they leading that demonstrates to cadets this "enlisted leadership that they would experience in the military"?   They're not leading other senior members - there's no senior member junior enlisted.  And they're not leading cadets in that sense - that's the job of the cadet staff.  So....   ?

You missed the point completely. They would see in our NCO's what they would see in the military. It would be one of the different concepts of leadership, not leadership due to a rank bracket, but what they will see in the future. Probably hard to explain the way I see it, but it's important that they understand NCOs. The leadership is primarily by example, which military NCO's tend to excel at.

Many cadets need to understand some of the C&C concerning NCO's as well. We had our CAP-RAP NCO visit last night at our meeting, and the DCC asked the commander and myself when the cadets were supposed to salute or call the room to attention. The commander and I looked at her completely puzzled. Apparently, cadets from other units told our cadets that they had to do this. What are those cadets going to do when they get to the "real" military and do this? They're going to embarrass themselves, and our organization.

NCO's can do any of the specialty tracks in CAP with the same competence that an officer can. Why force them to do anything that they may not want to? If you became a commander of a CAP unit, would you tell all you NCO's that they had to become officers or leave? It would be a foolish move, you'd be pushing out people that are willing to contribute.

As far as the "chain of command" goes, any officer that thinks an NCO is there to "order around" is a fool. CAP officers may have to deal with real live NCO's if they do things other than just working in their unit. It would be good for them understand those customs too.
The cadets in my unit looking at the military are looking at commissioning programs (academies, ROTC's, etc) not enlisting. Given the non-specific role NCO's play in CAP, how will the cadets learn anything about what they do in the military? As far as most cadets I see, a SM nco is just another SM to them. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess it would be because there is no nco-specific role in CAP as there is in the military. The cadets get excited about military personnel - regardless of grade - when they start talking about what they do/did in the military.

Sgt. Savage

Quote from: arajca on July 31, 2007, 11:34:09 PM
Again, I raise the question:
What unique role do nco's play in CAP that they cannot fill as CAP officers?

In the military, they are a valuable asset serving an important role. In CAP they do not serve in the same - or vaguely similar - manner.

I can answer this question. The NCO is a professional military educator, trained to assure that the unit is ready and capable of completing its mission. Not even an AD Officer is taught to do that, and I'm [darn] sure no CAP only officer can either.

Now, maybe you can tell us what you have against NCOs. You appear to think that CAP functions fine without them. I differ in that I know what a well trained unit looks like and think that if we made it half way there we would be twice as good as we are. Again, this thread is about changing things. Why not set the system in place to use these people the way they need to be used?

arajca

#47
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on August 01, 2007, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 31, 2007, 11:34:09 PM
Again, I raise the question:
What unique role do nco's play in CAP that they cannot fill as CAP officers?

In the military, they are a valuable asset serving an important role. In CAP they do not serve in the same - or vaguely similar - manner.

I can answer this question. The NCO is a professional military educator, trained to assure that the unit is ready and capable of completing its mission. Not even an AD Officer is taught to do that, and I'm [darn] sure no CAP only officer can either.
What is mission you speak of that requires nco's? ES? CP? AE? Other? An nco not trained in a mission (as most are not is regards to CAP) cannot ensure the unit is ready.

QuoteNow, maybe you can tell us what you have against NCOs. You appear to think that CAP functions fine without them. I differ in that I know what a well trained unit looks like and think that if we made it half way there we would be twice as good as we are. Again, this thread is about changing things. Why not set the system in place to use these people the way they need to be used?
I have nothing against nco's in general. I have issues with those who believe that nco's are the answer to everything. In the military, NCO's are valuable. In CAP, they are just another SM. If they are so essential to CAP operations, why are there not more of them in CAP? Why hasn't CAP developed a program to train up nco's. Or is it only miitary nco's that have value?

sandman

Quote from: arajca on August 01, 2007, 10:59:56 PM
I have nothing against nco's in general. I have issues with those who believe that nco's are the answer to everything. In the military, NCO's are valuable. In CAP, they are just another SM. If they are so essential to CAP operations, why are there not more of them in CAP? Why hasn't CAP developed a program to train up nco's. Or is it only miitary nco's that have value?

eh...just my 2000 dong..... (sorry, just left Vietnam and have extra dong left over; equivalent to less than two cents ;D)

My opinion is that a CAP NCO corps would be...interesting. In fact, as I've mentioned in other threads about this topic, I would even be interested in trading my oakleafs for stripes....because I once wore stripes and understand the value of them.

Why are there not more? Probably because there is no promotion capability within the senior enlisted structure....it's a static display....like a museum piece.

Develop a promotion system from E-1 to E-9 similar to the State Defense Force system, and I believe you might have more enlisted members in CAP. You might even have several officers go reverse mustang!

Also, make the cadets E-1 through E-9. Cadet "officers" should be those enrolled in college....but that's aluding to another thread already running....

Mission report: Just left R&R in Singapore and on our way to Papua New Guinea. Be well...

v/r
LT
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

Hawk200

Quote from: arajca on August 01, 2007, 10:59:56 PM
I have nothing against nco's in general. I have issues with those who believe that nco's are the answer to everything. In the military, NCO's are valuable. In CAP, they are just another SM. If they are so essential to CAP operations, why are there not more of them in CAP? Why hasn't CAP developed a program to train up nco's. Or is it only miitary nco's that have value?

Nothing against NCO's in general? Kinda hard to believe.

And the way you put it, any senior member is just another senior member. So what's wrong with them wanting to wear stripes? The way you put it, it doesn't matter.

Nobody has said they are essential to any CAP operations, only that some training and leadership could be improved with their experience. And no one is really talking about an NCO corps made from scratch, just utilizing those members a little better when it comes to their skills.

If CAP were to train their own NCO's, who do you think would do the initial training? How many do you think we would get? Probably not many. Easier to just rely on the experience of the few that come to us, and want to continue doing what they do best.

Are military NCO's the only ones that have value? You're kidding right? Show me someplace else that has actual Non Commissioned Officers. Not just someplace that calls someone a "Sergeant" like the Police or Fire Department, but refers to them as NCO's, and relies on them as such. I doubt there are any.

Just say you don't like NCO's, don't try to tell everyone that they have no place.

ZigZag911

Anyone who does not appreciate military NCOs probably has had limited contact with them....most of the ones I have had the privilege of knowing over the years have been dedicated patriots and consummate professionals who look to the well-being of their people before themselves.

SAR-EMT1

OK, my solution is far from elegant ... here goes.

Improve Prof. Development and increase TIG for promotions - say to the standard TIG rate of the AD AF. ex: 2 years to 1LT, 4 for Capt etc...

BUT Id also say to go a step farther: expand the FO grades to what the ARMY did with WO and the old specialist system. In other words equate a FO spot to each 'comisioned grade' ( I know we arent comissioned) - just as there was a specialist equating to about all the old elisted rating or how WOs equated to Lts, Captains, and Majors.

Having done so use the FO spots for those who progress through our PD and whatnot; ALSO good for those who otherwise would be a LT 'for life'

Reserve the bars and leaves for those who are active in the program as a staff member or as a Commander.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Hawk200

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 02, 2007, 04:03:37 AM
Anyone who does not appreciate military NCOs probably has had limited contact with them....most of the ones I have had the privilege of knowing over the years have been dedicated patriots and consummate professionals who look to the well-being of their people before themselves.

Emphasis added.

That's the leadership example I think would present so much to CAP in general. It's the kind of thing that is just hard to teach, you have to see it. Considering some of the members of my wing, it's an example that's sorely needed.

jpravain

CAP rank should be eliminated completely. It does not matter what your grade is. You all get paid the same. The command structure should be based on current position. " I am a Major General!  Really how much money do you make with that rank and what do you do outside of CAP? Uh, $0.00 and I work at Subway right now" rank - pointless and too easy (just a title). I was a 2nd Lt in CAP and went on an AFROTC training exercise. It was embarassing trying to explain to the cadets and cadre that I am NOT (in their eyes) a real 2nd Lt. JMHO
Jason Ravain

" I love to fly but hate to be flown " - LtCol Donald R. Feltey, USAF (Retired)

gallagheria

Quote from: 2bLT on August 02, 2007, 10:47:22 AM
CAP rank should be eliminated completely. It does not matter what your grade is. You all get paid the same.
Your logic does not make sense. If it did, then all IRR soldiers would not be allowed to have rank since they are not paid. Pay has nothing to do with rank structure. In the military, senior NCO's can make more than company grade officers--does that affect command? Of course not.

The solution I see to most of this is to mirror the military more, especially the Army. Use a warrant officer corps and allow all pilots and other speciliasts with no higher education to go into that field. Those with the education that mirrors the Army, or Air Force in the case of officers, will be commissioned. Also allow enlisted personnel for those with no other qualifications, just as with the AF/Army and have them advance up.

ColonelJack

Quote from: 2bLT on August 02, 2007, 10:47:22 AM
CAP rank should be eliminated completely. It does not matter what your grade is. You all get paid the same. The command structure should be based on current position. " I am a Major General!  Really how much money do you make with that rank and what do you do outside of CAP? Uh, $0.00 and I work at Subway right now" rank - pointless and too easy (just a title). I was a 2nd Lt in CAP and went on an AFROTC training exercise. It was embarassing trying to explain to the cadets and cadre that I am NOT (in their eyes) a real 2nd Lt. JMHO

So ... how long have you been in CAP to be a "former" second lieutenant?  Why "former"?  Did you hand your rank back in? 

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

jpravain

gallagheria - to me, the option I chose for rank structure makes sense (similar to the USCG Aux). Not sure what IRR soldiers are but I am sure that has nothing to do with CAP. CAP is not military. I see no reason to have officers vs NCO's as it serves no purpose that I am aware of. CAP are CIVILIANS. Again, this is just my personal opinion to which I am entitled. Nevermind a former National Commander who decided he wanted to be a Major General w/o Air Force approval and completely embarrassed the entire organization.

ColonelJack - I was in CAP off and on 3 years as a S/M with the rank of FO and then 2nd Lt at age 21. I was also a cadet for a year but chose to be more active in my AFJROTC unit in high school. Yes, I turned my rank back in. I resigned. This was in 1996 and I just recently started getting interested in the organization again. I was a Deputy Cmdr of Cadets, Mission Scanner and Mission Observer.
Jason Ravain

" I love to fly but hate to be flown " - LtCol Donald R. Feltey, USAF (Retired)

sandman

Quote from: gallagheria on August 02, 2007, 04:13:27 PM
Quote from: 2bLT on August 02, 2007, 10:47:22 AM
CAP rank should be eliminated completely. It does not matter what your grade is. You all get paid the same.
Your logic does not make sense. If it did, then all IRR soldiers would not be allowed to have rank since they are not paid. Pay has nothing to do with rank structure. In the military, senior NCO's can make more than company grade officers--does that affect command? Of course not.

I fully agree with your assessment. The IRR are non-paid standy-by military that are fulfilling their eight year civil obligation to military service. However, if activated, they receive full pay and benifits.

Let's look at the State Defense Forces: Probably a step below IRR although they can volunteer for state active duty for pay and even deploy if necessary.

Let's look at the CG AUX: They (I) wear rank devices but not for pay although there is some compensation for expenses for use of surface facilities (boats) and air facilities (aircraft). The CG AUX is a full partner in the USCG and DHS.

Let's look at Naval Sea Cadets: The officers wear rank devices, unaltered as in the CG AUX, and do not receive pay. The USNSCC officers actually have to earn their rank and no advanced appointment except for unit commander is authorized. This program is fully endorsed by the Department of the Navy.

Let's look at CAP: The officers wear rank devices as authorized by the Department of the Air Force and do not receive pay except for compensation for use of aircraft and some minor expenses.

2bLT: Why are you so adament about eliminating officer rank devices? Please expand upon your arguement.

Quote from: gallagheria on August 02, 2007, 04:13:27 PM
The solution I see to most of this is to mirror the military more, especially the Army. Use a warrant officer corps and allow all pilots and other speciliasts with no higher education to go into that field. Those with the education that mirrors the Army, or Air Force in the case of officers, will be commissioned. Also allow enlisted personnel for those with no other qualifications, just as with the AF/Army and have them advance up.

gallagheria: Well said.

/r
LT
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

BillB

One aspect I see is people are looking at CAP as a totally civilian organization with no ties to the military. OK CAP members are civilians, but the organization from the beginning has been semi military. Except for the first year when CAP operated under the Office of Civilian Defense, CAP has been under the jurisdiction of the Army Air Force and later USAF. CAP is not the Auxiliary of a civilian organization. It is the Auxiliary of the Air Force. Now you Navy or Army types may say the Air Force is not military <grin> the fact remains that CAP as the USAF Auxiliary is military. The cadets are totally military, seniors less so. Cadets earn gade and ribbons for completing achievements. which follows basic military training schools/courses. CAP has tasked non combat duties now and also in time of war. There is nothing to prevent CAP from being armed during time of a declared war. The role of CAP as authorized by Congress puts CAP under the military, not Homeland Security, the Red Cross or Boy Scouts.  Where is CAP National Hq? On a military base? With DHS in Washington? While CAP members may be civilian, they still drive vans and aircraft funded my the military. While many may wear the multitude of corporate uniforms, still the basic uniform is military. Cadets wear USAF funded uniforms. CAP is a blend of both the civilian world and military world, it's not 100% civilian or 100% military.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Sgt. Savage

I think the big questions are: Does the current system work well? Can it be improved upon? What specific problems do we have? How can those improvements assist in solving these problems?