Does position trump grade?

[Dragoon]

To help redirect this careening thread back to the proper highway ...

I think we've debated this "rank vs. position" before here.  It was the consensus, I recall, that the grade insignia worn by a member was simply recognition of what he/she has achieved, whether in CAP or in the RealMilitary(tm).  Apart from the reserved grades (colonel, brigadier general, major general), the grade worn has little if anything to do with one's job in the squadron/group/wing/region OR on SAR activities.

Position in this organization is, of course, everything.  So it wouldn't be uncommon for a 1st Lt to be in command of a squadron full of field grade officers.  And any field grade officer who has an issue with that simply doesn't understand the way CAP uses grade, and needs to be "educated."

I understand what folks mean when they say, "We can use bling instead of grade to show what one has achieved."  Unfortunately, that only works when you have  a member who wears the bling.  (We have a lot who don't.)  And it's important to recognize what one has achieved, and in some there's a need to show it off.  Grade does this at a glance -- "Oh, you're a major, you've made it through this and this and this.  Good on you!"

That's my opinion ... free, and worth what it cost.

Jack

Keeping on topic..

Yup, you've summed up how we use grade.  But the reason it keeps coming up is that many (me included) think the way we use grade is WRONG!

As for "it's important to show off your experience."  I disagree.  Those that need to show it off can wear the bling.  But I'm not putting much stock in anyone based on their grade.  I'll draw my conclusions after watching them in action. 

I think it's clear that a lot of CAP doesn't think it's important to wear grade, or they wouldn't have approved the golf shirt as a "uniform."

[Dragoon]

If experience is so critical to passing SLS and CLC.....why have them at all?

It is the old chicken and egg issue. The training should prepare you for the job you are going to take....not the one you have held for 2-1 years. 

The concept is that a certain level of experience in one job helps you absorb the training for the new job.

I mean, you could send a new Airman First Class off to the First Sergeant Academy, but he'd be a heck of alot better prepared if he'd been an NCO for while first.

Apples and oranges.  You should have said send an A1C to Airman Leadership School.  First Sergeants Academy is for E-7's and above.  Much too great of a jump.

Going back off topic..

The A1C to First Sergeant Academy is EXACTLY my point - you bet it's too great of a  jump. 

CLC is about Wing Level operations.  It SHOULD be too great of a jump for a brand new member. The brand new member attending SLS should be the equivalent of the Airman Leadership School analogy.

If a new member, with zero experience and nothing but Level 1 and SLS, can fully grasp all the concepts, techniques and procedures introduced in the Corporate Leadership Course, we've set the course bar wayyyyyyyy too low.

[ddelaney103]

To help redirect this careening thread back to the proper highway ...

I think we've debated this "rank vs. position" before here.  It was the consensus, I recall, that the grade insignia worn by a member was simply recognition of what he/she has achieved, whether in CAP or in the RealMilitary(tm).  Apart from the reserved grades (colonel, brigadier general, major general), the grade worn has little if anything to do with one's job in the squadron/group/wing/region OR on SAR activities.

Position in this organization is, of course, everything.  So it wouldn't be uncommon for a 1st Lt to be in command of a squadron full of field grade officers.  And any field grade officer who has an issue with that simply doesn't understand the way CAP uses grade, and needs to be "educated."

I understand what folks mean when they say, "We can use bling instead of grade to show what one has achieved."  Unfortunately, that only works when you have  a member who wears the bling.  (We have a lot who don't.)  And it's important to recognize what one has achieved, and in some there's a need to show it off.  Grade does this at a glance -- "Oh, you're a major, you've made it through this and this and this.  Good on you!"

That's my opinion ... free, and worth what it cost.

Jack

Keeping on topic..

Yup, you've summed up how we use grade.  But the reason it keeps coming up is that many (me included) think the way we use grade is WRONG!

As for "it's important to show off your experience."  I disagree.  Those that need to show it off can wear the bling.  But I'm not putting much stock in anyone based on their grade.  I'll draw my conclusions after watching them in action. 

I think it's clear that a lot of CAP doesn't think it's important to wear grade, or they wouldn't have approved the golf shirt as a "uniform."

Concur.  We've taken symbols that are instantly recognizable by the military as representing who is in charge over whom and turned it on its head.  In CAP, it represents how worthwhile CAP thinks you are.  Then we expect the military to understand our interpretation of grade insignia?

Going back to a previous quote:

It was the consensus, I recall, that the grade insignia worn by a member was simply recognition of what he/she has achieved, whether in CAP or in the RealMilitary(tm).

I missed that consensus - allow me to vigorously object to it.

Grade in the military is not a recognition of achievement, like a medal - it is a public symbol of the trust, authority and responsibility placed on the person who wears it.  To turn officer grade into the CAP equivalent of "Scouting Achievements" is simply wrong.

[mikeylikey]

^^ My miltary rank insignia is a reflection of what I have achieved.  It shows I have been commissioned, it shows I completed basic courses of instruction, and it shows I have what it takes to be burdened with more responsibility.  It absolutly shows achievement.  Also, there are medals that are not given because of achievements accomplished.  I don't think anyone wakes up and says "I want to get shot today, so I can get a purple heart. 

I would love to see CAP go back to what it was 1945-1955. 

[lordmonar]

The A1C to First Sergeant Academy is EXACTLY my point - you bet it's too great of a  jump. 

CLC is about Wing Level operations.  It SHOULD be too great of a jump for a brand new member. The brand new member attending SLS should be the equivalent of the Airman Leadership School analogy.

If a new member, with zero experience and nothing but Level 1 and SLS, can fully grasp all the concepts, techniques and procedures introduced in the Corporate Leadership Course, we've set the course bar wayyyyyyyy too low.

Well two problems with your idea.  First "brand new member" does not necessarily mean 18 year old Flight Officer.  Second you are making a lot of assumptions about the members who may or may not be attending the classes. 

Take me.  I have Level 1 and NO SLS yet....and I have 3 years in CAP and have commanded a cadet squadron!  Not that everyone one is just like me...but the majority of my squadron were pretty old when they first joined.  About 50% being in the 35-45 year age group. 

Finally.....there is NO BAR to set too low or too high in SLS or CLC.  You simply have to attend.  So until you start by changing the curriculum, the assessment method and passing standards...it makes less than zero sense to say there should be some arbitrary waiting period between SLS and CLC.

Tags - MIKE

[SAR-EMT1]

I'd be more then happy to see the standards raised.
My former roommate along with many others from my old Det. recieved their butterbars recently. I did not, due to an aforementioned medical issue. If there was anyway I could get past that I would be honored to make the Air Force my Career for life. But as it is I cannot do this. I dont know how many others there are like me in this organization but my point is this: I want to get as much out of CAP as I can that I would have recieved as a commissioned officer.
Now, I know its Apples and Oranges but I'd like to see that apple turn into a Tangerine.

[RiverAux]

Not that everyone one is just like me...but the majority of my squadron were pretty old when they first joined.  About 50% being in the 35-45 year age group. 

Wow, you've actually got a pretty young unit if you have that many people in that age group. 

[lordmonar]

Not that everyone one is just like me...but the majority of my squadron were pretty old when they first joined.  About 50% being in the 35-45 year age group. 

Wow, you've actually got a pretty young unit if you have that many people in that age group. 

And all the more to the point that SLS and CLC is not really teaching anybody any thing other than the CAP way of doing things.  It is NOT like USAF Airman Leadership School or Squadron Officers School where it is presenting more or less appropriate instruction to the right rank/experience group at the right time.

The last thing we need right now is to add MORE road blocks to getting the CAP specific training our members need.  If a guy can knock them both out in the same year.....more power to him.   

[JC004]

^^ My miltary rank insignia is a reflection of what I have achieved.  It shows I have been commissioned, it shows I completed basic courses of instruction, and it shows I have what it takes to be burdened with more responsibility.  It absolutly shows achievement.  Also, there are medals that are not given because of achievements accomplished.  I don't think anyone wakes up and says "I want to get shot today, so I can get a purple heart. 

I would love to see CAP go back to what it was 1945-1955. 

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

[Hawk200]

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

Did he say "red" epaulets, or "maroon"?

[mikeylikey]

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

Did he say "red" epaulets, or "maroon"?

Both!

[JC004]

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

Did he say "red" epaulets, or "maroon"?

We were talking about the khaki uniform at the time, so red.  Of course, we have folks who still wear it since the uniforms are so freaking confusing:

[MIKE]

I don't like the looks of the red epaulets.  Maybe something like Army Leadership tabs or what the Boy Scouts wear would look better?

[RiverAux]

Jeez, those look almost orange to me.  No wonder the CAP guys back then got such freaky looks.  Thank god they only made us wear the maroon and not have to go that far back in history...

[JC004]

I remember the first time that I saw the red epaulets in person...it was some half a football field away.  I immediately recognized what they were.  Not being old enough to know WWII, I think there was a greater appreciation of CAP, but I can't say with any authority.  Regardless of epaulet color, the mission comes first, and I think that what we can offer the Air Force is significant if we can get our crap together.  Personally, I have mixed feeling about CAP grade, but one thought that I have is that we should move towards the USCG AUX system.  I don't care to be called Lt...I care to be treated as a civilian who is augmenting the US Air Force voluntarily.  These bars mean nothing to me, and certainly nothing compared to my friends who wear them in the uniformed services of the United States, most of whom have seen some pretty nasty stuff.  CAP grade is useless to me.  We can have a Captain who is such due to professional appointment, but doesn't know the first thing about CAP.  We can have a 2d Lt who knows most everything about CAP.  As Colonel Treadwell called them (CAP ranks) at NER TLC last year, they're "atta-boys," and nothing much else. Screw CAP grade - let's be a group of professional civilians providing service to the finest aerospace power in the world.

[mikeylikey]

^^  Loose the rank/grade.  How hard would it be to say "Hi, I'm Joe Blow, I am the Sqd Commander".  Or "I am Joe Smith, the Wing Commander". 

[JC004]

^^  Loose the rank/grade.  How hard would it be to say "Hi, I'm Joe Blow, I am the Sqd Commander".  Or "I am Joe Smith, the Wing Commander". 

And long-live red epaulets on khaki!   

[SJFedor]

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

Did he say "red" epaulets, or "maroon"?

We were talking about the khaki uniform at the time, so red.  Of course, we have folks who still wear it since the uniforms are so freaking confusing:

Is that guy on the left doing a test wear of CAP's new dress white corporate combo?

[ddelaney103]

^^ My miltary rank insignia is a reflection of what I have achieved.  It shows I have been commissioned, it shows I completed basic courses of instruction, and it shows I have what it takes to be burdened with more responsibility.  It absolutly shows achievement.  Also, there are medals that are not given because of achievements accomplished.  I don't think anyone wakes up and says "I want to get shot today, so I can get a purple heart. 

The computer ate my reply last week, so I'll try to reconstruct it.

OK, I forgot to include the word "primarily" in my description.  Yes, grade does show (in most cases) some level of achievement, but that is a side effect.  It is not given because you did a good job as much as it is given because the "powers that be" believe you are able to handle the higher level of authority and responsibility.  Authority and Responsibility are the reasons for military grade, but they are not the reasons in CAP.

If I walk into a stress situation in the military, I can look around and determine if I am in charge or who I am to support because they are in charge, based on the grade they wear. 

In CAP there are no clues.  I can ignore just about everyone except the project officer and the five commanders: sqdn, gp, wing, region, and national.  Any random CAP General or Colonel will get my polite attention, but I am under no obligation to listen to their instructions.

We have taken symbols that are used in the military to determine authority and turned them into merit badges - no wonder the military is confused by us.

[ZigZag911]

We have taken symbols that are used in the military to determine authority and turned them into merit badges - no wonder the military is confused by us.

To a certain degree, so has The Real Military (tm)....otherwise, why do they need special badges (beyond grade insignia) to identify commanders?