Does position trump grade?

[arajca]

Grade provides zero authority in CAP.

Zero.

The entirety of any authority comes from staff appointment.

Then maybe it's time for grade to correspond with position for every level of command, just like in the CG Auxiliary.  Any thoughts?

Happy endings suck galactic muffins.

[MIKE]

The CGAux has the same problem we do.  You still have past officers running around with office insignia that doesn't equate to their current job, or lack of one.  I have a past Division Captain (silver oak leaves) in my Flotilla.

[SAR-EMT1]

In no way am I supporting insubordination or mutiny.

...a very thin line, and the subject of many arguments, fights, 2b's and hard feelings....

Not to mention you run the risk of displeasing any of our Newly minted Admirals of the Great State of Nebraska. ... Is it possible to walk the plank off the side of a Combine?

The way 99% of all SMs will look at Rank is that it indicates your level of  professional education within the organization - notice I didnt say experience: ive seen plenty of folks that never progress beyond Lt or Capt. but have 2 or more Master ratings. - 
As for the Rating system, well thats job job experience.

As for GRADE ... whenever I think of grade I think of payroll and we are all O-zeros as far as I know.  ...That is unless Nebraska sends these Admirals a stipend.

In my half dozen years with CAP ive seen that for the most part position goes to the most mature person who is willing to take the job.  ...Sometimes due to lack of vollunteers the maturity can vary as can the level of experience in an area.  Then its a question of having a warm body  LT with a tech rating and all the time in the world or a Lt. Col with a Master but no time for the job....

[MIKE]

At the very least, I would like to see us change our terminology/definitions to be in line with the military rather than confuse people.

[Eagle400]

At the very least, I would like to see us change our terminology/definitions to be in line with the military rather than confuse people.

I agree.  If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck... shouldn't it be a duck?  CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, and should have terminology/definitions that are in line with those of the Air Force. 

I'm not saying CAP can't have its own customs and traditions, I'm just saying that common sense needs to be a factor here. 

[gallagheria]

Even in the Army position trumps grade. If a staff member is a LTC and a commander of a unit is a major, the LTC cannot tell the major what to do. Position always dictates command ability.

[flyguy06]

Even in the Army position trumps grade. If a staff member is a LTC and a commander of a unit is a major, the LTC cannot tell the major what to do. Position always dictates command ability.

I dont know about that. Are you telling me that a Major cannot tell a Company Commander what to do? Try telling that to my former Battalion X0. He used to chew up Company Commanders when they didnt have their maint status in on time

[lordmonar]

Even in the Army position trumps grade. If a staff member is a LTC and a commander of a unit is a major, the LTC cannot tell the major what to do. Position always dictates command ability.

I dont know about that. Are you telling me that a Major cannot tell a Company Commander what to do? Try telling that to my former Battalion X0. He used to chew up Company Commanders when they didnt have their maint status in on time

You illustrate the point exactly.

Your BATTALION XO's position placed him over your Company Commander's position when it came to maintenance statuses.

Positional authority almost always trumps grade.

[stillamarine]

Even in the Army position trumps grade. If a staff member is a LTC and a commander of a unit is a major, the LTC cannot tell the major what to do. Position always dictates command ability.

I dont know about that. Are you telling me that a Major cannot tell a Company Commander what to do? Try telling that to my former Battalion X0. He used to chew up Company Commanders when they didnt have their maint status in on time

You illustrate the point exactly.

Your BATTALION XO's position placed him over your Company Commander's position when it came to maintenance statuses.

Positional authority almost always trumps grade.

Exactly. In the same since the HHC (Headquarters and Headquartes Company I think) CO is usually a Capt, yet the S-1 (personnel) officer may be a Maj. The S-1 officer falls under the command of the Capt in company related matters.

[ddelaney103]

Even in the Army position trumps grade. If a staff member is a LTC and a commander of a unit is a major, the LTC cannot tell the major what to do. Position always dictates command ability.

I dont know about that. Are you telling me that a Major cannot tell a Company Commander what to do? Try telling that to my former Battalion X0. He used to chew up Company Commanders when they didnt have their maint status in on time

You illustrate the point exactly.

Your BATTALION XO's position placed him over your Company Commander's position when it came to maintenance statuses.

Positional authority almost always trumps grade.

Exactly. In the same since the HHC (Headquarters and Headquartes Company I think) CO is usually a Capt, yet the S-1 (personnel) officer may be a Maj. The S-1 officer falls under the command of the Capt in company related matters.

Well, yes and no.

All the positional authority still stems from a superior officer.  The S-1 doesn't really answer to the HHC - he answers to the CO, who delegated his authority in this matter to the HHC.

The reason an E-2 can jack up a Col at the gate is because he has authority given to him from either the Base Commander or SecAF/CSAF (through published regulations).

Now, in any matter not covered by such a delegation of authority, rank wins.  The senior must take charge.

[gallagheria]

Command always overrides grade.

Take for instance a major in unit 1. He is a member of the staff. Take a captain who is in unit 2. The captain is a unit commander. The major has no authority whatsoever over the captain, unless he is in the chain of command, which in this case he is not. Command always overrides rank.

Now, in most cases, a higher ranking person will not be under a junior officer, but the position would be the deciding factor. In the Army, AR 600-20 ("Army Command Policy") clarifies this, and I am sure it is no different in the Air Force.

[Dragoon]

A bit misleading.  Command does override grade in matters of command.  But outside matters of command, rank matters.  The major still has some authority over the captain, indeed over all captains.

So, the staff major can't order the company commander captain to make his company do something.  He can however, correct the captain for personal things like uniform infractions,  conduct at the O club, etc.   In fact, he's expected to do so.  He has a responsibility to his Service to make on the spot corrections to anyone of lower grade.  And if the two of them were seperated from their units and working together, the major is in charge.

On the flip side, The captain has zero authority over that staff major.  The major isn't in his unit, and also outranks him.

The difference in CAP is that the staff major truly has zero authority over the captain.  Our regs only invest power in commanders.  So if that staff major wants to correct the captain's uniform or conduct, or direct his actions at some Wing function, the captain can blow him off.  And all the major can do is go find the captain's commander and complain.

It's all about the position, baby.

[LTC_Gadget]

and last but certainly not least, the mods here aren't all LtCols, but if we get outta hand, no matter what rank, they can still put us on 'vacation,' or make us persona non grata... 

V/R,

[ZigZag911]

Perhaps the naval example best clarifies this: aboard ship, isn't the commanding officer is the ultimate authority on that vessel and everyone aboard it, regardless of rank?

[SarDragon]

Perhaps the naval example best clarifies this: aboard ship, isn't the commanding officer is the ultimate authority on that vessel and everyone aboard it, regardless of rank?

Yes, but he is almost always the most senior officer on board, anyway. If the ship is carrying a flag officer, the skipper would usually be working for the flag in an operational sense, but the day-to-day happenings come under the skipper's purview.

In my experience, the RealMilitary® manages to work things out so that our CAP-like situations never happen. Training command situations differ, but there is always some chain of command that follows the rank structure.

[SAR-EMT1]

Reminds me of the Sgts at AFROTC Field Training... " You are a worthless Disgusting MAGGOT!!! ... SIR. "   

[ZigZag911]

Perhaps the naval example best clarifies this: aboard ship, isn't the commanding officer is the ultimate authority on that vessel and everyone aboard it, regardless of rank?

Yes, but he is almost always the most senior officer on board, anyway. If the ship is carrying a flag officer, the skipper would usually be working for the flag in an operational sense, but the day-to-day happenings come under the skipper's purview.

Exactly my point -- the admiral may be along for the ride, but does not interfere in the inner workings of ship or crew.

[Hawk200]

Then maybe it's time for grade to correspond with position for every level of command, just like in the CG Auxiliary.  Any thoughts?

I have a problem with the "just like in the CG Auxiliary". This isn't the CG Aux. And I dislike the idea of being stuck in a particular grade just because I live 120 miles away from wing headquarters; not one of the "in-crowd"; or not eligible for major just because my state doesn't have a group.

I have no problem with people getting promoted if they legitimately meet the requirements for each level of the PD program. The rank shows experience. And yes, a military officer receiving an equivalent grade in CAP has loads of leadership experience. There is very little difference than a military officer transferring branches, they just have to learn a few new things about their new service's mission and ways of doing things.

When it comes to positional grade, yes, I seriously dislike the concept. I don't even know what the CG Aux does as far as a professional development program goes, but I might reconsider if I thought it involved personal advancement like our program does. As far me, I like the fact that if I advance myself that it's going to show in some manner.

[RiverAux]

CG Aux has no real professional development program though there are some opportunities to participate in various CG programs and some specialties within the CG Aux have progressive training programs. 

Being in both CAP and CG Aux, the CG Aux system is much better adapted to an organization actually comprised of civilians. 

However, as has been stated before no system CAP is likely to develop will resolve the inherent differences in administrative positional authority and operational (ES-related) positional authority given the fact that CAP units are not actually used in the same operational sense as are real military units.  You can have a system of rank that makes sense for administrative purposes, a system that makes sense for emergency services purposes, or use the current CAP system in which rank makes no sense at all either for CAP administration or emergency response. 

[Hawk200]

You can have a system of rank that makes sense for administrative purposes, a system that makes sense for emergency services purposes, or use the current CAP system in which rank makes no sense at all either for CAP administration or emergency response. 

It makes plenty of sense if viewed in the proper context. ES is not the be-all, end-all of CAP. There are other factors involved too. Even in the Air Force, a general occasionally goes out for a flight, but he would still answer to the SOF in such a situation. And I've seen an Army full bird jump from an airplane, but he still answers to the jumpmaster. I personally know a Blackhawk crewchief that told a one star not to unbuckle during the flight. General got irritated, even though the crewchief was polite about it. There are times when you may have higher ranking lives in your hands. And a lot of those times, you have to protect them from themselves.

Just having the rank doesn't automatically make the individual an expert in all aspects, or always in charge. There are plenty of military situations that are just as equivalent, although we don't hear of them in CAP.

In CAP there are plenty of higher ranking personnel that have already "been there, done that". Should someone automatically take charge for thirty five or forty years straight? There are people that have been in CAP that long. Why shouldn't they have the option of relaxing later, without taking a bust for it?

As far as the CG Aux goes, I've heard about the "Past Officer" device. Is it worn on all authorized uniforms? If not, it doesn't show experience at all times. And the experience is always there, not just when a certain uniform is worn. Rank in CAP shows it at all times. As long as the credentials are updated, there is no harm in someone working for many years at a time, and then resting on their laurels.