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Goodbye to an NCO

Started by MacGruff, October 24, 2014, 01:08:50 PM

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abdsp51

Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.

I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?

No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.

PHall

Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.

BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?

I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???

No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???


My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701.  Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.

Enjoy!

Eclipse

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 04:35:09 PM
No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.

I'd have to agree, other then maybe one or two sentences in whatever class(es) cover courtesies, both
military and common.  Until you're at the NCO or officer level, you're not likely to need to know or care about CAP
within a USAF context.

Perhaps during discussions about what constitutes community service CAP could also be mentioned
as one outlet for points.  The Navy has certainly made good use of those opportunities up our way.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Air Force BMT is already really tight on time and there are much more relevent things for them to cover.

Now, doing the Intro to CAP thing during say Airman Leadership School, that might be workable.
But it would be a pretty hard sell to get them to do it.

abdsp51

The people in the AF who need to know about CAP know.  I can tell you that the vast majority of the AF can care less about CAP especially the junior grades.

If we Civil Air Patrol want people to know about us we need to be the ones to market ourselves to who we are trying to inform. 

And PHall good luck trying to get any outside stuff into ALS I've already tried.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that?  I stand on my contention that it is not ours.  The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are.  Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.

As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.

But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.

I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but as someone who has been through AF BMT, I disagree. That's not what BMT is for.

In my Group, we have a very close relationship with all the Air Force installations in our area. That may not be the case for every unit out there, but I'm sure our Group and units are not the only ones with a close relationship with the Air Force. It's something that requires a bit of work on our part, but certainly doable and with great return.

By the way, you have lots of opinions about how CAP should work and what it should change and that's fine and dandy, but opinions don't help us carryon the mission or improve the organization as a whole. We need people actually working and contributing, so what's holding you back?

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.

BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?

I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???

No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???


My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701.  Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.

Enjoy!

Thank you!
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 26, 2014, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on October 26, 2014, 12:30:35 PM
The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.
And who owns the problem with that?  I stand on my contention that it is not ours.  The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are.  Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.

As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.

But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.

I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but as someone who has been through AF BMT, I disagree. That's not what BMT is for.

In my Group, we have a very close relationship with all the Air Force installations in our area. That may not be the case for every unit out there, but I'm sure our Group and units are not the only ones with a close relationship with the Air Force. It's something that requires a bit of work on our part, but certainly doable and with great return.

By the way, you have lots of opinions about how CAP should work and what it should change and that's fine and dandy, but opinions don't help us carry on the mission or improve the organization as a whole. We need people actually working and contributing, so what's holding you back?

Ok, I bow to the subject matter experts, I really don't know USAF BMT runs so if you all say it doesn't, it doesn't. I just know when I went thru USMC Boot Camp many moons ago and when I transfered to the Army and they dropped in the middle of OSUT after week eight, that we had lots useless briefings on things that had no purpose in a Military basic training.

Not to say that a CAP orientation is useless, far from it... but between the briefings on... the Combined Federal Campaign, the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Fund, learning about buying US Savings Bonds and which bars and strip clubs were off limits after graduation, I think they could fit a CAP briefing in there.

As someone suggested, if Airman Leadership School or another NCO course would be a better fit for it, then I'll concur.

As to your question, time is holding me back.

And before you ask I'm at work right now. Our dispatcher called sick, so I'm sitting in the radio room doing nothing, phone hasn't rung in an hour and the streets are "quiet" so I'm on the forum trying to stay awake as the computers hum around me.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

lordmonar

I've been to BMT.   I think they do need to add CAP to the BMT guide as part of the "this is the USAF" section.   I think it needs to have a 1/2 page in the PFE study guide and be testable on WAPS.   I think it needs to be included in PME.  I think we need to be in 36-2903.

I'm not asking anyone to be a CAP expert or wasting anyone's valuable training time.  But really...we are the USAF axillary...someone needs to tell the troops.


Having said that.....if your unit is withing 50 miles of an Air Force Base.....you had better have some sort of presence there!   There are lots of ways to get seen...including Top Three, CGO, Chief's Group, 5/7 Mid-Tier, Airman's council, first sergeants council, weekly/monthly new comer's briefs.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:18:55 PM
I've been to BMT.   I think they do need to add CAP to the BMT guide as part of the "this is the USAF" section.   I think it needs to have a 1/2 page in the PFE study guide and be testable on WAPS.   I think it needs to be included in PME.  I think we need to be in 36-2903.

I'm not asking anyone to be a CAP expert or wasting anyone's valuable training time.  But really...we are the USAF axillary...someone needs to tell the troops.


Having said that.....if your unit is withing 50 miles of an Air Force Base.....you had better have some sort of presence there!   There are lots of ways to get seen...including Top Three, CGO, Chief's Group, 5/7 Mid-Tier, Airman's council, first sergeants council, weekly/monthly new comer's briefs.

I have to disagree with part one.  There is to much more important things to be in the curriculum and the PDG than us.  And it should not be testable by any means.   It's already difficult enough to promote and it shouldn't be added to it. 

Part Two yes someone needs to tell the troops but it doesn't have to be the AF.

Part Three agree wholeheartedly.

lordmonar

If I had to study about all those MAJCOMS, DRUs and stuff why not include a 1/2 page to CAP?  It's not that much. 
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:35:44 PM
If I had to study about all those MAJCOMS, DRUs and stuff why not include a 1/2 page to CAP?  It's not that much.

To you maybe. To the writers of the document no.  You would really hamper an Airman's career by that?  This would fall into the same category as the SARC briefings, being a good wingman, and DUIs.

lordmonar

No it would fall into the same category as AFMPC AU AFOSI and all those other acronyms I had to study at bats and for WAPS testing. I'm not saying we got to have yearly mass briefings.  Just a presence in the official book of knowledge.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on October 26, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 25, 2014, 05:09:29 PM
It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.

BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?

I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed. ???

No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706. ???


My mistake, it's AFI 10-2701.  Lot's of interesting reading for people like you in that reg.

Enjoy!

OK, I've now read the Instruction cover to cover and I didn't see anything in there that addressed uniforms, rank, insignia or designing/controlling same.

Did I miss something or is this the wrong regulation again?  ???
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Try paragraphs 1.3.1, 1.3.2, 1.3.3 and 1.3.4.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 26, 2014, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on October 26, 2014, 04:02:04 PM
But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.

I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?

No they shouldn't and definitely not during BMT.

Come now.  You and I have both been to BMT.  I firmly believe that a short briefing on CAP would be of much more use than yet another marathon underwear-folding session or a nightly briefing in the dayroom listening to the MTI impress upon you how great he is (OK, not all of them do that, but mine did).  It would be absolutely no trouble to use one (1) 30-minute session in the dayroom to say "Alright, this is who these people are and this is what they do."
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

MSgt Van

A better place may be during Leadership school or NCO academy (if they still have such things). I think there'd be a much higher retention level.  I never heard of CAP until one of my SrA walked in to my office wearing Lt bars.

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
No it would fall into the same category as AFMPC AU AFOSI and all those other acronyms I had to study at bats and for WAPS testing. I'm not saying we got to have yearly mass briefings.  Just a presence in the official book of knowledge.

Why when we as the org should do a better job of marketing.  You and I both know the average AF member doesn't care and won't care.  Trying to jam it down their throats is not the way to go and all the agencies you listed are far more critical to the overall AF mission than CAP. 

If CAP wants to be known is it upto CAP to market and brief not Ma Blue. 

abdsp51

Quote from: CyBorg on October 26, 2014, 11:15:10 PM
Come now.  You and I have both been to BMT.  I firmly believe that a short briefing on CAP would be of much more use than yet another marathon underwear-folding session or a nightly briefing in the dayroom listening to the MTI impress upon you how great he is (OK, not all of them do that, but mine did).  It would be absolutely no trouble to use one (1) 30-minute session in the dayroom to say "Alright, this is who these people are and this is what they do."

They don't do those marathon sessions anymore and sorry but as much as you want to cry about it BMT is not the place to teach about CAP there is much more important pieces of information to learn there. 

abdsp51

Quote from: MSgt Van on October 26, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
A better place may be during Leadership school or NCO academy (if they still have such things). I think there'd be a much higher retention level.  I never heard of CAP until one of my SrA walked in to my office wearing Lt bars.

I agree however their curriculum is tightly controlled by the Barnes Center and they don't have the time in the schedules.  I tried to get a block of time done here and I am on good terms with the ALS staff and was shot down.  Until Air University changes its mind it won't happen.