Minor in possession of alcohol

[CAP_Marine]

Think long and hard about this, and remember that the easy decision is rarely the best. There is much you can gain from CAP, and while you may feel somewhat restrained by the program, your very statement is evidence that the roots of the program are taking hold. We all make mistakes at your age, some serious,  some not, but all teaching moments that should help shape our lives moving forward.

You mention that you are not planning on joining the military, but your screen name indicates you may have at least considered it. Regardless of your decision, let me tell you a parallel story that will hopefully hit close to home given your choice of names.  I was once a young (20 year old) USMC PFC that made a similar poor decision. I had just completed my training, gotten assigned to my first unit in the fleet, and was preparing for my first deployment. Some of us went out and had a celebration prior to shipping out. I had an innocent chance meeting with some MPs (needed a temporary vehicle pass) where they smelled alcohol on my breath. They had my ID to process my pass, realized I was under age, and bada boom, my chain of command was involved. I was not arrested, but was turned over to the duty officer.

In the spirit of disclosure, I did drink occasionally in high school. I was not a cadet but wish now that I was.  I also though that Marines were supposed to be bad a** types that were expected to occasionally find themselves in trouble (darn you Heartbreak Ridge!!). Low and behold, the core values of CAP re relatively similar with all of the Military services. The issue was not brushed aside, and just two days before I was to be promoted to LCpl, I was denied promotion for an additional 6 months as punishment for my momentary lack of judgement. Now, that may not seem like much, but all of you Marines out there know how crappy it is to be a PFC in the fleet. It was somewhat devastating at the time!

Had I been a 20 year old civvie in a similar situation, this would probably have been brushed aside. The reality is that there are higher standards for people who belong to certain organizations or services. You are held to a higher standard and that is not a bad thing in the long run. Even as a 20 year old service member about to deploy, I was held to the same standard as you were 123Marine. It doesn't matter how people feel about the laws, they are there and need to be followed. None of this is meant to be a guilt trip, but to try and paint a picture and relay a similar experience that I also had to learn from. It doesn't define you, won't hold you back in life, and will not make you an instant alcoholic. What will make a difference is the lesson you learn from this and how you apply it throughout the rest of your life.

I wish you the best of luck in your decision, urge you to follow the advice of some of the wiser posters here, and sincerely hope you continue to find a home in the cadet program and even further into CAP.

[SarDragon]

I have made several classes in the past few months, and the staff agrees the squadron needs to change direction. I still don't feel as though i can benefit any further. If i do decide to leave CAP I will still keep the values with me

You get out of CAP what you put in. It seems like you've given up on the putting in part.

[123Marine]

What I have found to be true, based on a sample of 15-20 people that I know in the age of 20-23 right now:

Those who did not drink while underage could go one of a few ways: full on drunks, never drink, drink rarely.

Those who did drink before 21, but not often / a lot tend to remain that way afterwards. Whether it is simply a predisposition to drinking less, or whether it is a result of their behavior earlier in life is for the scientists to sort out.

Those who drank a lot. And I mean A LOT. Almost every weekend. Anytime the opportunity came up, etc. Those folks STILL do it after turning 21. I'm going to assume it is out of habit and the lack of anything interesting to do in the suburban world they live in.

Me? I'm 22 now. I've been to 5 bars, on 4 occasions. I left (and arrived) at two of those bars as the driver. I was sober by the time it was time to go (I stop drinking well before we call it a night). I simply don't drink much. I also have a family history of alcoholism, and my mother constantly fears that if I drink I may fall into that problem.  Now, I've been on a bit of a beer tasting in the last year. I like to try different beers, so I do drink at home - sometimes. But I've only been seriously drunk a few times in my life, and I'm sad to say most of them were prior to turning 22.

Alcohol isn't evil. The decision to drink isn't evil. Having a drink under the age of 21 isn't a sin, but it is certainly against the law. You want to do it? No one can really stop you. But you will suffer consequences if you are caught. Do most kids who drink die in a crash/kill someone else/destroy their life? No, but they increase their odds.

I'll tell you this though: everyone tells young people that they think they are invincible. And we deny it. We think, sure I realize some things can kill / hurt me, but the things I do won't cause me harm. Looking back? Me at 14 scares the crap out of me. Me at 16 scares the crap out of me. Me at 18, when I figured, I'm an adult, I'm mature now, scares the crap out of me. I'm 22 now. I'm just about at the age where I feel like I'm turning into an adult, but I realize that 5, 10, 20 years from now I'll look back at my 22 year old self and realize how foolish I was.

I hope you consider the right thing. It may not be telling your CAP leadership, but you DEFINITELY need to tell your parents. They earned the right to know.

I also hope you truly consider what you want out of life, whether CAP is part of that or not. Figure yourself out, and do what you feel is right. But also realize, that ultimately CAP is a "once a week on a weekday, and a weekend sometimes". It truly doesn't cut into your social life - my first date with my fiancee was decided right after my first "find" mission. But CAP does make you a better person all around. I look around at my friends, at my classmates in college, and I think: some of these people would have benefited from the structure and experience CAP gave me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

I agree with you on that point as well. And believe me, my parents know

[bflynn]

So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?

[Johnny Yuma]

CAP as an organization has a very bad habit of sticking its corporate nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you were on a CAP activity, in CAP uniform or in any way representing CAP then your unit really has no business injecting itself into matters best settled between you, your parents and the law. In other words, your unit has no need to know, period.

If anyone inquires about it, even if it were your Wing or Region Commander, the proper response is "Sir/Ma'am, that's none of your business." If they want to pursue it further then you demand to have your parents present.

That said, drinking at 16 usually leads to fail in one way or another. I'd avoid it like the plague until you mature more.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

123 Marine just a hint, it's all about integrity, maturity, responsibility and self discipline.  Civil Air Patrol can and does help refine these qualities in a young (and in many cases the not so young) people, but it can not create.  If you feel C.A.P. is hindering your life, maybe you should do a gut check here and now.   I am not nor have never been a Marine, but I did learn a few things during my 24 years Army, and that is if you have a problem with any of the above qualities you are going to have a real problem in the military service.
  Your decision is your decision but realize that the decisions of others can be formed based on what you do.  I ahve always told my children and employees and subordinates that if a mistake is made, admit it, own up to it, confess it, and together they and I will work to correct it, learn from it, and put it behind us.  However, to make a mistake and hide it, eliminates all hope of corecting and learning and only brings punishment. (grounding, termination of employment, etc. even for the first offense).
  does one drink make an alcoholic?  Maybe yes maybe no.  Has anyone ever gotten up in the morning and looked in the mirroe and said "Today I will become an alcoholic".  No.  But research is starting to point to gentics as a determining factor in who will and who will not become alcohol dependent.
  So now you are here and stating that you want to take advantage of the summer programs and then take your marbles and go home.  What a selfesh and self centered mindset.  I hope your were not/are not serious, and that you offer up an apology.  But if you are serious, please quit now and free up a space in the programs for a DESERVING Cadet.

[N Harmon]

CAP as an organization has a very bad habit of sticking its corporate nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you were on a CAP activity, in CAP uniform or in any way representing CAP then your unit really has no business injecting itself into matters best settled between you, your parents and the law. In other words, your unit has no need to know, period.

I sort of feel the same way. If one of my cadets gets into some trouble outside of CAP, that is parental territory and it is up to them to deal with it. Unless...

If anyone inquires about it, even if it were your Wing or Region Commander, the proper response is "Sir/Ma'am, that's none of your business." If they want to pursue it further then you demand to have your parents present.

Unless, the trouble said cadet gets into causes me to doubt his/her judgement. I can not trust a cadet whose judgement is in question to be a leader of other cadets. So if I hear about one of my cadet leaders getting a ticket for minor in possession, you can bet I will ask about it. Because I need some reassurance that he/she can still be trusted, and that this lapse in judgement was just that.

If the cadet insists it is none of my business, then that answers my question. The cadet is relieved of whatever leadership position he/she held, and can continue to participate in the program in another capacity.

And I have no problem having that conversation in the company of a cadet's parents. Been there and done that.

That said, drinking at 16 usually leads to fail in one way or another. I'd avoid it like the plague until you mature more.

Nailed it.

[bflynn]

An external issue is....external.  Failure to tell someone in CAP is not an integrity issue, it's a privacy issue.  CAP doesn't need to know everything going on with every volunteer or cadet, even those in leadership.

Why would you consider a desire for privacy to be a leadership fault?

[Cliff_Chambliss]

The problem is many times external issues  tend to migrate into internal issues.  Yes, this is a minor event, but suppose he does Youth Court or whatever and gets a bit of community service and lo and behold, someone else in the program sees him and finds out and now it's all over the school and migrates into the CAP.  It would be nice if the Cdr knew about it before hand and was in a position to deflect/kill the "did you hear what xxx did".  No one likes surprises.
  Another viewpoint:  What of an external act that flies in the face of CAP Core Values?  addressing the act up front can be the difference between a learning point and a punishment action.

All my life I subscribed to the theory that if I made a mistake, my parents, teachers, commanders, etc., would rather hear about it from me than from an outside source.  In later life I tried to instill this idea in my children and overall it has been successful.  We have uncovered many learning opportunities and as a parent/employer, I would rather teach and correct than punish, but to teach and correct there must be responsibility, maturity, and openess.

[Eclipse]

CAP makes it clear that behavior outside the organization, is, in fact, fair game, especially for cadets, and even more so when we're talking
about the use of illegal substances by a cadet.

"zero Tolerance" doesn't mean "instant termination", but in a CAP context, considering the core values, a cadet is certainly duty-bound to accept personal
responsibility for their actions, including any membership consequences that may be included.

Consider the amazing lesson that could be taught by a cadet who admits something like this, is temporarily suspended or demoted, and then moves on with his CAP career in a successful way.

[41839j]

This is actually one of those "defining moments" in life.  Everyone makes mistakes and has done stupid things.  That is not the issue and neither is underage drinking the issue here.  What is important is how one deals with adversity WHEN it occurs in their life.  Life is a test, and all of us will ultimately be judged on how we acted.  Do you do the right thing only when others are looking or only when you have to?

This incident is actually an oppertunity for the member involved to show his integrity.  Even if I were not planning on continuing in CAP, I would go to my supervisor, candidly admit what had happened, that it was wrong, and what I was doing about it. 

They are likely to respoind positively to that.  People don't get upset about mistakes.  They do get upset about lies and coverups.

Think about it.....

[bflynn]

VAUCAJX

... No one likes surprises.

CAP governence should not be determined by what an individual likes.

Another viewpoint:  What of an external act that flies in the face of CAP Core Values?  addressing the act up front can be the difference between a learning point and a punishment action.

Is this against CAP core values?  Respect, Integrity, Volunteer Service and Excellence.

Integrity?  What is the moral or ethical principle being broken?

This is a 16 year old kid who messed soemthing up.  There are two chances right now, one that this remains a confidential youth issue and the other that it gets recorded in public form to follow him his entire life.  CAP involvements isn't necessary and the more people who know, the more public it becomes.

Personally, I think it shows a lack of respect for the cadet to demand that a fault be exposed publically.

Let ye who has not sinned cast the first stone.

[abdsp51]

Integrity issue knows hes not suppose to posses, consume, or purchase illicit substances underage.  Not want to tell leadership though I can see the cadets side.  Expressing a desire to quiet but only after attending an activity.  Basic definition of integrity do what's right when no one is looking.  But can add admitting culpabilty and responsibility for ones actions. 

From the sound of it he was merely detained, spooked and sent on his way with no paperwork etc. So the only record would be the patrol logs. 

Cadet did post the incident in a public forum for any/everyone to see asking for advice.  And I could be wrong but the general consensus has been that admitting is likely to result in a lesser form of action than the CC being blind sided. 

[Eclipse]

Integrity?  What is the moral or ethical principle being broken?

Seriously?

He used an illegal substance, and his only (publicly acknowledged) concern is keeping it quiet long enough so he can ride out the summer, get his Mitchell, and attend some NCSA.

Not exactly "excellence" or "integrity"

There's no "respect" issue in regards to exposure - this isn't TMZ wandering into the cadet's back yard with a camera, he came here voluntarily and brought it up and out.

And this has nothing to do with "casting the first stone", you're not understanding the meaning of that phrase.  CAP's role is as mentor in situations like this, especially when directly asked.

[JeffDG]

So, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?

He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information.  That's fine.  The law says the information is confidential.  Society, through its elected representatives in the legislature of his state, has decided that he need not disclose this information to anyone.  Why then is it a violation of the Core Value of "Integrity" to avail himself of that right that he has?

If asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing.  But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.

[Eclipse]

If asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing.  But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.

I don't necessarily disagree, at least in terms of the OP, however the thread wandered into personal integrity when the cadet indicated that he was going to quit CAP any way after an NCSA this summer, not exactly a poster child for ethics.

I think most of us would agree that in the Grande Scheme^®, assuming this is an isolated incident, this isn't the end of the world, nor a career-ending situation if CAP finds out, but that the idea that this cadet feels that AP has been handcuffing his life, and he only cares about not getting caught until he can get a few last things out of the organization before he is caught indicates some lessons were not taken to heart.

On the other hand, the fact that he's concerned at all, means a few might have gotten through.

[bflynn]

Basic definition of integrity do what's right when no one is looking. 

Why do you think telling CAP is what is right?  Why is your expectation that he would talk about his openly?  You realize that the expectation for him to talk comes from you, right?

There is no lie here, there is silence....which BTW is probably very smart and appropriate with a youthful indiscretion.  These kinds of things can come back later in life if they are made public.

There is no coverup, there is no attempt to conceal this, the young gentleman just isn't talking.  Silence is not a crime.

So, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?

He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information.  That's fine.  The law says the information is confidential.

Exactly my point.  There is a difference between not talking about it and attempting to conceal it. 

If the commander's first though goes along the lines of "how dare he do this to me...", I place the fault on the commander.

[abdsp51]

Don't try and twist what I said.  He expressed concern he could be terminated from the program for his choice.  His choice to talk or not but he will have accept the outcome of the decision.  I would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means. 

[bflynn]

I would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.

Why?  Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life?  You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.

So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.

It's being handled by the parents.  It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.

[abdsp51]

Do I have responsibilty for him no I don't. And as why for one it shows they are willing to take responsibilty for their actions/decisions and know that by doing so is generally going to leave them better off in the future.

And on this topic we are just going to have to agree to disagree.