Minor in possession of alcohol

[lordmonar]

I would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.

Why?  Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life?  You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.

So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.

It's being handled by the parents.  It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.

Because they are my cadets/airman/employees.  When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.

And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?"  The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP.   But that's not how it comes out in the press.

In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too.  Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.

[123Marine]

So, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?

He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information.  That's fine.  The law says the information is confidential.  Society, through its elected representatives in the legislature of his state, has decided that he need not disclose this information to anyone.  Why then is it a violation of the Core Value of "Integrity" to avail himself of that right that he has?

If asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing.  But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.

A very good point. If I have the right to keep something personal, I do not see any violation of integrity. Also, It is a good point to not have more people involved than necessary. And no, I am not making it public on this forum because I have none of my identity revealed.

This will not become an internal issue, I don't see how it can become one without me saying what happened.

I think many of you are getting integrity and privacy too far interleaved. Integrity means doing the right thing. In my situation, telling anyone in CAP wouldn't be right or wrong; simply a decision. Should I also tell CAP about every little detention I have had in school (Which hasn't happened in 3 years btw)? Things simply as being late to school? Talking in class? CAP is a youth organization, not a church confession.

[41839j]

123Marine,  Now you are starting to get it and I agree with most of your last post.  All I am saying is that I would go to them in private and be contrite in telling them.  They would know that you don't have to do that, but would respect you being a man and it would probably give them a higher opinion of you.  It is a sign of maturity, and might lead to consideration for other posts and more responsibility down the road.

[bflynn]

Because they are my cadets/airman/employees.  When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.

And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?"  The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP.   But that's not how it comes out in the press.

In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too.  Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.

So your reason for wanting him to to come forward is about you and about CAP?  I didn't hear you say that it was for his good.  You want him to fall on his sword for the organization and then you call that integrity? 

A couple of corrections - as I understand it, the courts will not be involved because there was no arrest made.  The officer exercised his authority to talk to the parents in order to keep this confidential.  There is no public record of this anywhere.  For the cadet's future, that is probably best.

For the OP - it is your right to keep your family matter in your family.  I'm sure you recognize by now that it was a pretty dumb thing to do.  Learn from this and show better judgement in the future.

[123Marine]

So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?

I recently have been looking for concrete reasons on either side. The side which said to tell leadership was VERY opinionated. There were several sides on the same advice. The side on keeping it personal has concrete reasons, including law and actual definitions that prove the decision will keep things neutral as possible.

I am still on the fence about leaving CAP, at this point it looks unlikely that I will leave until college comes around.

[bflynn]

When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.  Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership. Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.  You don't gain personal responsibility for their lives because you're their leader...or if that's your view, take a step back because you're crowding.

And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups.

BTW, if you go back to my previous posts on leadership, you'd find that I believe in leaders having good relationships with their directs.  My view is more along the lines of service leadership, what can you as a leader do for them.

I'd also rather have a direct tell me they messed up too, but I don't need to know everything.  In this case, there is nothing more that you could do for the cadet, there is just a great deal you could do to him.  You help him by remaining out of it.

[Extremepredjudice]

So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?

I recently have been looking for concrete reasons on either side. The side which said to tell leadership was VERY opinionated. There were several sides on the same advice. The side on keeping it personal has concrete reasons, including law and actual definitions that prove the decision will keep things neutral as possible.

I am still on the fence about leaving CAP, at this point it looks unlikely that I will leave until college comes around.

The law isn't on the side of "keep it personal." The only way it would be is if the court was telling your CC. You can discuss your criminal record, the court, witnesses, and everyone involved can't.

our "side" isn't necessarily opinionated. If you notice, most of "tell the leadership" people are SMs. SMs have made mistakes, and know how to recover from them. They are the ones that you should listen to. Think of them as elders...

Just a FYI, Bflynn is a bit of a troll. What "definitions" have they offered, I must have missed them?

Silence is not a crime.

I wanted to say something earlier, but it was pointless for just one post. Silence can be a crime. If I witness a murder, then stay silent I am in trouble legally.

[bflynn]

The law isn't on the side of "keep it personal." The only way it would be is if the court was telling your CC. You can discuss your criminal record, the court, witnesses, and everyone involved can't.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no court involved because there was no arrest and thus no witnesses or criminal record.  I could be wrong there.

[abdsp51]

The confidentiality aspect is in regards to crimes commited as minors that wound up in court.  And dictates that PII in regards to minors cannot be released. Now if a minor is convicted as an adult its an adult conviction.  And it basically means an employer cannot use it in regards to hiring etc.  However it can stop you from obtaining a clearance and working for the Uncle Sam amd can be used to show behaivor patterns for later offenses. 

A simple detention and FI is a different story as long as the minor is not being questioned in regards to a offense in which they may implicate themselves.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have never been arrested but have been in traffic court twice, both for very minor offences (one I wasn't even fined for).

When I filled out my DoD Form 398 for Top Secret Security Clearance I told my recruiter that and she said "list them anyway...they'll frown on you a lot worse if you don't list them and they turn up."

I would say that is applicable to the cadet's issues here.

The chances are 50/50 that the CC won't find out...but if the CC does find out, s/he may not 2B the cadet, but he may have to kiss promotions and/or positions of leadership goodbye.

When counselling cadets, I have often used this maxim:

"Anyone can make an error.  That's human.  But the error only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it."

[Johnny Yuma]

I would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.

Why?  Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life?  You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.

So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.

It's being handled by the parents.  It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.

Because they are my cadets/airman/employees.  When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.

And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?"  The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP.   But that's not how it comes out in the press.

In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too.  Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.

You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.

I've never seen a headline like you suggest, not even from the few times there were molesters involved.

[Eclipse]

You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.

I agree - except you're wrong.

[Johnny Yuma]

You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.

I agree - except you're wrong.

really? Please expand...

[bflynn]

He won't.

You're correct.  The commander is not the legal guardian of the minor.  Attempting to uncover a juvenile infraction could be considered an invasion of privacy and could result in a potential unauthorized discovery/release of PII. 

I say that as a parent - this is family business and the commander needs to butt out.  There is no official record of this and there is nothing to be gained by bringing another person in on the issue.  There is especially nothing to be gained by having CAP create a record of it that might resurface some years in the future at the wrong time. 

[Extremepredjudice]

He won't.

You're correct.  The commander is not the legal guardian of the minor.  Attempting to uncover a juvenile infraction could be considered an invasion of privacy and could result in a potential unauthorized discovery/release of PII. 

I say that as a parent - this is family business and the commander needs to butt out.  There is no official record of this and there is nothing to be gained by bringing another person in on the issue.  There is especially nothing to be gained by having CAP create a record of it that might resurface some years in the future at the wrong time.

You are correct. It isn't any of CAP's business. But if the cadet shares the information it isn't breaking any laws. Forcing the cadet would, though

[abdsp51]

No one has said force the cadet to say anything and you are misunderstanding the law/s in place to protect minors during criminal proceedings in regards to juveniles.  This was a detention not arrest, no one is advocating digging to obtain information the major consensus was he should say something since he was concerned about getting kicked out. 

[bflynn]

Let's ask the reverse question -

Suppose the cadet does tell his COC, specifically his squadron commander.  What is the commander required to do?  Is an entry in the cadet's records required?

[abdsp51]

Ultimately commanders discretion on what course of action he/she takes.  If it was me I wouldn't move for termination,  I know that teens can and will make mistakes and bad decisions we all do it's part of maturing and growing up. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If he came to me and told me what was going on? No, I wouldn't really do much at all. Probably just have a talk about what happened and see if he has learned his lesson. See if he fears any adverse action. If it goes halfway well with him, I wouldn't do anything. Because he has shown some intestinal fortitude.

If I were to find out about it, and find that he was intentionally hiding it, that would be a different story. I still wouldn't push for separation, but probably a demotion of one grade, and tell him as soon as he is ready to test let him do it, even if it is the next meeting. And no, I wouldn't make the demotion a huge public thing either, do it like a counseling, with a couple of SMs, and then that is that. Just show the cadet that there are consequences to actions. And the worst consequences come from lying, and intentionally hiding something bad is lying to most people.