Senior CAP Organizational Culture

[Walkman]

I think that if these members you speak of were informed about the new course, and its ease of completion, they might be more willing to move ahead.

I came in as ECI 13 was being phased out, so I don't have any experience with it. But, I enjoyed OBC. I thought there was a lot of good info in there. One thing that would make it better (and I don't know if this is on the horizon or not) would be some sort of interactive element. I would have liked to have gone into a chat or forum to discuss some thoughts on different subjects with my peers.

To be honest, I wished I had gone through OBC as Level 1.

[Camas]

One thing that would make it better (and I don't know if this is on the horizon or not) would be some sort of interactive element. I would have liked to have gone into a chat or forum to discuss some thoughts on different subjects with my peers. To be honest, I wished I had gone through OBC as Level 1.

I think most of us would agree that much of the online course and testing material has made it easier for members to complete and to be accredited for completion. But I've always believed that, while it's easier to pound away on your keyboard in the privacy of your own home (or wherever), members lose the interaction with other members in a classroom environment such as the old Level One course offered. I also went through the old ECI-13 course along with classroom instruction in Level One, SLS, CLC and RSC. The interaction with other CAP members was priceless. And, of course, the opportunity to make friends - well, one can't put a value on that.

[DrJbdm]

   The problem I have with the OBC is that it is an open book exam and not a closed book proctored exam. I think that it should also be taken prior to pinning on 2nd Lt, but I guess thats another discussion.

   The old ECI-13 was good for college credit, 5 or 6 hours if I recall correctly. not a bad deal. It also cured insomnia very well, just thinking of it makes me sleepy!

[JeffDG]

   The problem I have with the OBC is that it is an open book exam and not a closed book proctored exam. I think that it should also be taken prior to pinning on 2nd Lt, but I guess thats another discussion.

   The old ECI-13 was good for college credit, 5 or 6 hours if I recall correctly. not a bad deal. It also cured insomnia very well, just thinking of it makes me sleepy!

The problem I had with OBC was that while it was an open-book test, you had to install this buggy lock-down software on your computer in order to take the test...what it was locking you down to prevent, I don't know...someone doesn't understand the concept of "open book"

[Spaceman3750]

I would be kind of interested to see OBC as a two-weekend in-residence course.

[Walkman]

I would be kind of interested to see OBC as a two-weekend in-residence course.

That would be a great option. If it had been available, I'd would have liked to gone in that direction.

That being said, I think one of the reasons for the online courses is plain old time & logistic roadblocks. My unit hosted an SLS late last year and seeing how much effort it was to put together, a two weekend event could be difficult.

[DerNarr]

Really good thread, guys. Honestly, I am/have been in a similar spot as some of the posters in this thread.

I'm currently inactive in CAP, having not paid my member dues last year. While I did have the money to pay them off, school and some other priorities were taking precedence over how that money would be spent. However, the biggest thing holding me back from immediately renewing my membership was that kind of "senior culture." When I'd visited my squadron early last summer, I don't think I'd seen so many senior members in attendance before. Which would be great, if they were doing something other than shooting the breeze, kind of like every other time I went to squadron meetings. :|

I plan on doing this when I rejoin, and while I know this might not be easy, the best plan really is to become the go-getter yourself. In between SMs having lives of their own (careers, families, etc.) and general complacency, it's easy for a squadron to become lazy or to "rest on the laurels" of other accomplishments (i.e., I felt that our senior side was neglected because of our phenomenal cadet program). Think of things that you want to see changed (methods and frequency of trainings, recruitment, etc.), and find ways that you would like to change them and will benefit the squadron - and the organization - on the whole. It's bad to spend $60 a year and get little for it; but it's worse to spend countless hours of your life and get even less.

CAP politics, an issue which hopefully won't get this thread closed, might factor into some of the gridlock, but you'll have to find a way to break those, too.

Hope my two cents are worth it to the OP, and to anyone else.

[Critical AOA]

I know I am late to this thread but I just want to add my two cents.

I was a cadet back in the 1970s and at least in my squadron back then there was plenty of guidance and support at least on the cadet side.    I was out of CAP for 30+ years and joined as a Senior Member about 2.5 years ago while I was living in Southern California.  I was quite appalled at the lack of support or welcoming attitude from the membership.  Practically the only ones that were helpful were a couple others who joined just prior to me.  The squadron commander seemed like he could care less.  Every time that I approached him about getting started, what steps I needed to take, what capacity he wanted me to serve in, etc. he would just brush me off.  I am a private pilot, A&P and IA.  I thought I could be of help with the aircraft maintenance operation.  He said that he already had two people working on it.  Later I found out that neither of these individuals had a maintenance background of any kind. 

I was able to get through level one, go to SLC and do a few other things completely on my own.  I practically had to push any paperwork and a pen into the commander's hands to do all of this.  It was ridiculous. Later, I tried to have someone guide me through the Form 5 process and WMIRS but no one ever had the time.  It was as if I was not welcome into the "flying club".

A little over a year ago, I moved from CA to Memphis, TN for a job and joined a squadron in the area.  Here I found things to be markedly better though I believe there is still room for improvement.  At least I have been able to make some rank, get my Form 5 done and become a TMP.  All things that I tried to do in SoCal but was put off from doing.  I am also finally involved with the acft mx & ops a little.

It seems like CAP is ultra self-service.  I can understand that to a degree since if you volunteer and want to participate you need to show some initiative.  I personally do not expect things to be handed to me nor do I feel the need to be spoon fed but I believe that it is only right that someone who has been in the organization long enough to either know the answers or where to go to get the answers be assigned to new members to guide them through the process and help them find their place in the organization.  I know that there is a specialty track for professional development officers.  It seems that this position is frequently empty.  Why is that?

No one should be spoon fed but please show newbies the menu and explain it a bit.

[Eclipse]

A lot of commanders don't "get" the fact that their job is to put their own CAP experience on the back-burner and
concentrate on the experience of their membership.  I've met far too many who get to the chair and then just use their
access and privilege to their own end.

This is human nature, though, and not necessarily specific to CAP.  The biggest factor in this, IMHO, is the lack of top-down expectations
beyond the bare minimums, which can generally be accomplished by a single person.  With no expectations or goals, and being fully-self actualizing,
there's no pressure to do anything you don't feel like.

Again, human nature, but the fix is visible with command imperative.

[jimmydeanno]

I have a staff for a reason.  My job as squadron commander doesn't revolve around running level 1, or introducing every person that walks through the door to CAP.  it might work that way in tiny squadrons, where the commander and two other seniors are present, but my role is a bit more strategic than that.

My DCS works the "where people fit" issue, my DCC handles the cadet things and personnel.  I focus on unit metrics and whether or not we are meeting our program goals, outside relationships, positive public image, etc. 

Having 30 seniors and just as many cadets I just don't have the time to spend every meeting chit-chatting with every new guy.  Unapproachable?  Might seem that way, but my guidance is a little higher on the food chain than "what specialty track pamphlet do I use?" Or "how do I fill out a CAPF 15."

YMMV

[Eclipse]

I have a staff for a reason.  My job as squadron commander doesn't revolve around running level 1, or introducing every person that walks through the door to CAP.  it might work that way in tiny squadrons, where the commander and two other seniors are present, but my role is a bit more strategic than that.

As it should be.  My point was that it has to be getting done as the priority, and having a good, large staff is the proper way to get there.

[RADIOMAN015]

The biggest factor in this, IMHO, is the lack of top-down expectations
beyond the bare minimums, which can generally be accomplished by a single person.  With no expectations or goals, and being fully-self actualizing,
there's no pressure to do anything you don't feel like.

Again, human nature, but the fix is visible with command imperative.

Surely from time to time there's going to be some problems in the organization, because one is dealing with people not robots.  HOWEVER, at least where I sit I think we do a pretty good job of meeting the organization's three core missions.        Most people volunteer their time to do things that they want to do and the challenge at every level is to find the right person that wants to and has the appropriate skills to perform satisfactorily in managing/administering our various major/minor functional areas.    IMHO, IF CAP as an organization makes it too difficult for volunteers, they will look elsewhere to spend their discretionary time.
RM     

[Critical AOA]

I have a staff for a reason.  My job as squadron commander doesn't revolve around running level 1, or introducing every person that walks through the door to CAP.  it might work that way in tiny squadrons, where the commander and two other seniors are present, but my role is a bit more strategic than that.

My DCS works the "where people fit" issue, my DCC handles the cadet things and personnel.  I focus on unit metrics and whether or not we are meeting our program goals, outside relationships, positive public image, etc. 

Having 30 seniors and just as many cadets I just don't have the time to spend every meeting chit-chatting with every new guy.  Unapproachable?  Might seem that way, but my guidance is a little higher on the food chain than "what specialty track pamphlet do I use?" Or "how do I fill out a CAPF 15."

YMMV

Really?  You don't have time to meet briefly with every new guy and see if his needs are being met?  You don't have time to ensure that a new guy has been assigned to a more tenured member to ensure that he is being provided some guidance so that he wants to stay.

You don't think this nonchalant attitude towards new members has an impact on retention?   

While you and others with similar attitudes are being "strategic" and living high on the food chain, us lesser beings are being discouraged and wondering if CAP really wants its membership ranks to increase or if the "flying club" wants to remain small so less people are available for perks such as funded flying, missions, etc. 

BTW, my experience in CA was with a senior only squadron and at most meetings there were maybe a dozen members present and looking at the way things were, no one was being strategic.  So, the man had the time. 

[abdsp51]

I think you misread the intent of what he was saying.

[Private Investigator]

My DCS works the "where people fit" issue, my DCC handles the cadet things and personnel.  I focus on unit metrics and whether or not we are meeting our program goals, outside relationships, positive public image, etc. 

"My" this and "my" that. BTW, it is not DCS or DCC the correct alphabet is CDS and CDC. I bet you are one of them 'pompus' Squadron Commanders. 

[Private Investigator]

I have a staff for a reason.  My job as squadron commander doesn't revolve around running level 1, or introducing every person that walks through the door to CAP.  it might work that way in tiny squadrons, where the commander and two other seniors are present, but my role is a bit more strategic than that.

My DCS works the "where people fit" issue, my DCC handles the cadet things and personnel.  I focus on unit metrics and whether or not we are meeting our program goals, outside relationships, positive public image, etc. 

Having 30 seniors and just as many cadets I just don't have the time to spend every meeting chit-chatting with every new guy.  Unapproachable?  Might seem that way, but my guidance is a little higher on the food chain than "what specialty track pamphlet do I use?" Or "how do I fill out a CAPF 15."

YMMV

Really?  You don't have time to meet briefly with every new guy and see if his needs are being met?  You don't have time to ensure that a new guy has been assigned to a more tenured member to ensure that he is being provided some guidance so that he wants to stay.

You don't think this nonchalant attitude towards new members has an impact on retention?   

While you and others with similar attitudes are being "strategic" and living high on the food chain, us lesser beings are being discouraged and wondering if CAP really wants its membership ranks to increase or if the "flying club" wants to remain small so less people are available for perks such as funded flying, missions, etc. 

BTW, my experience in CA was with a senior only squadron and at most meetings there were maybe a dozen members present and looking at the way things were, no one was being strategic.  So, the man had the time.

I agree with Vandy 100%. Squadron Commanders and their Staff should see how other Units operate. I have been to Units that is really out of touch. Like somebody who bought the whole set of encyclopedia britannica and stopped after "A" because they knew everything already so why bother reading to "Z".   

[FW]

Sigh...

"Back in the day", I commanded one of the most succesful squadrons in my wing.  We had over 80 cadet and senior members all working as a team.  What was great?  I had plenty of spare time to greet new members because everyone was doing their job and, doing it well.  I just got my "updates" before the formal start of the meeting and, went over the month's progress at our monthly staff meeting.  My "formal" time spent at a meeting was no more than an hour.  Paperwork could be signed anytime.  A new or prospective member's questions always took a priority.  I was there for the squadron to function and thrive (take that to mean whatever you wish).  For some reason things worked out...

[Critical AOA]

Sigh...

"Back in the day", I commanded one of the most succesful squadrons in my wing.  We had over 80 cadet and senior members all working as a team.  What was great?  I had plenty of spare time to greet new members because everyone was doing their job and, doing it well.  I just got my "updates" before the formal start of the meeting and, went over the month's progress at our monthly staff meeting.  My "formal" time spent at a meeting was no more than an hour.  Paperwork could be signed anytime. A new or prospective member's questions always took a priority.   I was there for the squadron to function and thrive (take that to mean whatever you wish).  For some reason things worked out...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That is how I believe it should be.  Well done sir!

[a2capt]

I like it. You're describing my unit now, pretty much, too.

[jimmydeanno]

My DCS works the "where people fit" issue, my DCC handles the cadet things and personnel.  I focus on unit metrics and whether or not we are meeting our program goals, outside relationships, positive public image, etc. 

"My" this and "my" that. BTW, it is not DCS or DCC the correct alphabet is CDS and CDC. I bet you are one of them 'pompus' Squadron Commanders. 

Whatever you want to believe, since you apparently didn't read a single thing I wrote.

I don't have the time to run Level 1 for new members.  I don't have the time to spend my entire night telling people about our three missions.  That's why I have a staff.  This doesn't mean that I don't introduce myself to new people, or get to know them.  It means that my staff handles the administrivia associated with new people coming in the door.  Nobody is left waiting, everyone is greeted, everyone seems to be taken care of.  Nobody has left yet.

My JOB is to make sure that our programs goals are being met, not help the person fill out the CAPF 15.  It has nothing to do with being pompous, or devaluing those below me in the chain of command. 

Most people tend to hate micro-managing leaders.  Me empowering my deputies and their staffs to do their jobs seems to be a good thing to me.  My methods seem to work pretty well, considering that I've brought numerous squadrons from the brink of extinction to being the largest, most successful units in the wings within a few years.

Like I said before.  Squadron Commanders who have 10 members probably have more time to spend personally walking people through each aspect of CAP.  When you have 60+ folks at your meetings, you can't devote your attention to each one.  I thought we all understood span of control.

You guys are trying to tell me that the way that I treat people doesn't work, when in reality, I've helped recruit and retain more people to CAP than some wings have.  But whatever, people see things how they want to and not how they are.