Senior CAP Organizational Culture

[old141pilot]

I have 16 years of USAF active duty and reserve service. I recently joined a CAP squadron with 20 seniors and 20 cadets.  I am trying to understand the culture.  I'm used to being the new guy in USAF units. The "new guy" protocol in the CAP seem different from that of the USAF and industry.  I go to meetings and sit around.  There may be small talk but the seniors all seem to keep to themselves and work on laptops.  I have heard the same thing from other senior applicants at other squadrons like a CFII who was ignored for several meetings and left the program.  It would appear that the new senior member needs to be proactive and overcome the "inertia" or "exclusiveness" among the seniors.  My question is how best to proactively get active and progressing without threatening or irritating the "old guard." For example how do I politely request a mentor so I can move beyond Level I?  I'm not shy but I understand that organizations have a "culture" and expectations.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Birdman.

[Spaceman3750]

I have 16 years of USAF active duty and reserve service. I recently joined a CAP squadron with 20 seniors and 20 cadets.  I am trying to understand the culture.  I'm used to being the new guy in USAF units. The "new guy" protocol in the CAP seem different from that of the USAF and industry.  I go to meetings and sit around.  There may be small talk but the seniors all seem to keep to themselves and work on laptops.  I have heard the same thing from other senior applicants at other squadrons like a CFII who was ignored for several meetings and left the program.  It would appear that the new senior member needs to be proactive and overcome the "inertia" or "exclusiveness" among the seniors.  My question is how best to proactively get active and progressing without threatening or irritating the "old guard." For example how do I politely request a mentor so I can move beyond Level I?  I'm not shy but I understand that organizations have a "culture" and expectations.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Birdman.

The "senior culture" varies drastically between units. I would recommend asking "Hey squadron commander, what do you guys need me to do?". If they don't have anything for you to do, find another squadron.

[Pylon]

If all that's true, your squadron is doing you a major disservice and is flagrantly ineffective.  They ought to be re-examining their very way of operating if that's how they greet and incorporate new volunteers.

Unfortunately, poorly operating units like that do exist -- after all CAP is simply a sum of its human members -- and some initiative on your part may be needed to get past Level I and involved in what CAP has to offer.  Not saying it's right (it's not), but if that's the existing situation at your home unit you may have to be more driven to get involved.

For example, now that you've completed Level I, you should really think about what it is you want to do in Civil Air Patrol.  Are you up to volunteer to help in any way, from keeping financial or aircraft maintenance records? Or are you interested in teaching aviation to teens?  Or flying SAR missions?   Take a look at the variety of "specialty tracks" (career fields or AFSC's in the closest Air Force terms I can think of) available and what are the next recommended steps for your professional development (Level II) here: http://capmembers.com/cap_university/

If you select a specialty track, and say to the commander: "Hey, I'm interested in being a [Communications/Finance/Public Affairs/Cadet Programs/Flight Operations/etc.] Officer. I've downloaded the materials, and started the specialty track training.  Is there currently a [Specialty Track] Officer in the squadron I can work with?" 

Accept my apologies for your unit, as I don't believe they represent Civil Air Patrol well.  And thanks for joining both CAP and CAPTalk!

[FW]

The continued number 1 and 2 reasons for leaving CAP are: poor squadron leadership and, nothing productive to do.  These reasons haven't changed in years decades.  Is there somehting we can do about it? Of course. Is there any motivation to change? In most cases, it appears not.  The few individuals in many units who really care about changing this "culture" are, IMHO, vastly outnumbered by those who favor the status quo.

However, as Michael has said above, there are units which are highly successful.  Maybe you can make a difference by just talking with the squadron commander about what you would like to accomplish in the squadron.  Ask to be pointed in the right direction and for some advice and help.  Ask him to reccomend someone to mentor you in obtaining your goals and objectives.  The commander usually is the key player and, should assit you in this.  Good luck.

[abdsp51]

Engage with the CC and look around at other units.  Once my paperwork has been processed I know its going to he a lil bit before i do much of anything.  But it'll allow me to dive into learning apecialty track and such.

[bosshawk]

Birdman: in my 18 years in CAP, I mentored more than one new member.  In your case, it looks like a quiet chat with the Sq CC, pointing out that you need and want a mentor to get through the morass that typifies a CAP Sq.  The "culture" is nothing like what you have experienced in the AF, so move past that.  Some of the advice from others on CT hits the nail on the head.

Be aggressive: sitting and waiting will get you headed out the door in frustration.  With 16 years of AF experience, you obviously have talents that the Sq can use: finding out what they need is your job right now.  In a meeting or two, you should be able to find one or two seniors who seem to be approachable: have at it.  If they rebuff you, move.   As someone pointed out, this may not be the unit for you.

Good luck.  If I can be of more help, PM me.  I am simply not active in CAP anymore, but I do have an interest.

[RiverAux]

Pylon is right -- some units stupidly think that its a waste to devote any time to new members until they've been around a while and seem like they will stay.  Obviously overlooking the fact that ignoring new members is likely to drive them away. 

It doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad unit, but if there are some others nearby you might want to check them out. 

If there aren't any alternatives, as they've said you may need to push things along yourself a bit. 

[spacecommand]

Every unit is different and I do not believe that unit represents all units you will find, but I don't know what area you are in etc to really comment.

I know from where I am the reception you would get would be vastly different. 

[Private Investigator]

Birdman welcome aboard.

I always try to look at the three closest Units and see what fits. Unfortunately sometimes the next nearest Unit is 2 hours away so you really are stuck with whatever Unit is there.

The old saying, the squeeky wheel gets the grease is true. Just hang in there and it will be rewarding eventually.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Birdman,
  If you were in Central Alabama, I would invite you to visit our Squadron (Birmingham Senior Sqdn 34).  As soon as you walked in you would be greeted and introduced to the room, and the magic question, What do you want to do, and When do you want to start?  As soon as your application was accepted you would be provided a mentor to get you thru level 1, and help you decide on a Specialty Track if you have not already picked one.

Welcome aboard.

[Walkman]

I've been in, and seen, similar (but not quite as bad) situations for new members. This can also happen when a current member moves to a new unit. What I've noticed is that it sometimes doesn't take much of a spark to get things going. I've personally seen how a few new, fired-up people in a squadron can create amazing momentum and change for the better.

[PHall]

I have 16 years of USAF active duty and reserve service. I recently joined a CAP squadron with 20 seniors and 20 cadets.  I am trying to understand the culture.  I'm used to being the new guy in USAF units. The "new guy" protocol in the CAP seem different from that of the USAF and industry.  I go to meetings and sit around.  There may be small talk but the seniors all seem to keep to themselves and work on laptops.  I have heard the same thing from other senior applicants at other squadrons like a CFII who was ignored for several meetings and left the program.  It would appear that the new senior member needs to be proactive and overcome the "inertia" or "exclusiveness" among the seniors.  My question is how best to proactively get active and progressing without threatening or irritating the "old guard." For example how do I politely request a mentor so I can move beyond Level I?  I'm not shy but I understand that organizations have a "culture" and expectations.  Any suggestions? Thanks, Birdman.

The biggest and most important difference between an Air Force unit and a CAP unit is that everybody in the Air Force unit has an assigned job.
Otherwise you wouldn't be there.

A CAP unit is pretty much a direct opposite, anybody can join and you need to find a job, if you want one.

Yes, they should welcome you, but the Senior Member Program is pretty much a self-directed program.

[abdsp51]

I know when I transferred as a cadet I went and checked out the local unit first and I spent a lot of time with the cadet staff and the SM as well.  It was a good fit for a little bit, and then went down hill.  The unit I applied with here is always looking for members but more importantly members who want to actively participate with the program.  BTW any updates on the situation?  Have you scoped out anywhere else or bounced all together?

[coudano]

Here's the straight answer:

Dont' be too tied up in walking on egg shells about your wants, needs, and even dissatisfactions about how things are going.  CAP squadron commanders (usually) aren't like USAF squadron+ commanders (for better and worse), and you (usually, at the unit level) don't need to worry about career protection or preservation by making all the right appearances in front of 'the important people'.  The only bad or dumb questions are the ones that go un-asked.  If you are dissatisfied with how things are going, mention it directly and openly to your commander (in private anyway) and suggest a course of action that would make you happier (bring him a solution, not a problem).  This shouldn't be news to you, based on your prior stated experience.  Leave the ball in the commander's court, frame the discussion so the next move or the next decision is his, and clearly not yours.

There is a certain amount of allowable "forgiveness vs permission" involved as well.  CERTAINLY you should not violate the law, or CAP rules and regs, but if you are waiting around for an embossed invitation to get involved and start doing something, or for someone to notice your quiet dissatisfaction and proactively make it all right, you're probably going to wait forever.  That shouldn't be news to you either, based on your prior stated experience.  Nobody cares about your career more than you.  I'm SURE you've heard that before.

Of course there's such a thing as being too pushy, but man in the years i've been around it's pretty rare.  Most often people just sit there quietly and eventually just fade away.

MORE often than that, commanders ask their people to do stuff, and the people just aren't interested in doing it, or don't come through.  If you are in a unit full of adults who just sit around and talk and don't actually do much, it might just be that group of people is doing exactly what they want to do in CAP.  You don't have to fall in league with that, if you don't want to.  Sometimes the commander is one of the guys who just wants to sit around and talk about airplanes...   It does happen.  The good news is this guy (probably) won't impede you much in pursuing what you want to do, particularly if it's no skin off his back.

I've also been witness to the "wait and see" attitude regarding new members.  The commander might not want to be too pushy, and scare you off by dropping a ton of junk on you in your first few months in the door.  Quite often we'll get people come in the door and make a lot of noise about wanting to do some cool stuff, but when it comes time to put out, they were all talk.  I've been party to "hey go for it" with a cautiously skeptical eye toward whether there is some substance behind the talk.  Too often, there isn't.

There IS often an organizational (stagnant) inertia that has to be overcome, to get things moving.  But as others have pointed out, once things DO get moving, great things can start to happen in a pretty quick hurry.

CAP is a cool organization and it provides opportunities to serve that are probably unique to it.  But it isn't perfect.  Get your dues worth (at least) out of your membership in terms of personal satisfaction from service; or else, frankly, spend your time and money on something where you DO get that satisfaction.  Life is too short to be one of the bitter people who just gripe (don't go down that path).

[old141pilot]

The various responses have been most informative and helpful.  In particular the comment about one needs to "find a job" in the CAP.  That distinction explains the situation that I have observed.  Thanks to everyone that provided a response.

[wuzafuzz]

@ quietbirdman

Welcome to CAP!  I hope your experience becomes very enjoyable.

Everything said so far is great advice.  When I first joined, twice actually...separated by almost 20 years, I sat around for a while absorbing the goings on.  The initial experience was a little disappointing.  My squadron was very pilot oriented and I suspected non-pilots were viewed as non-useful load.  However, I stayed in there.  Once I took on a squadron job I was suddenly "Mr. Popular."  There were things that needed to be done but existing members were already committed to other things.  Once I was identified as the go-to guy for _____ the pent up requests started flowing and I was "adopted" quickly.  In fact, at that point I had to quickly learn when to protect my non-CAP time!

Once you earn a reputation as a good resource you may find that people from other squadrons, groups, and wing seek you out.  In less than 4 years I went from a squadron newbie who barely knew what CAP stood for, to a complex wing level job.  Who knows, your interests may fit what someone else is looking to let go of.  If you have the time and interest you'll likely find yourself very involved.   

The same seemed to be true for Emergency Services ratings.   A few recommendations were thrown my way, beyond that a spirited pursuit of my desired ratings was required.

[bflynn]

This doesn't sound extremely different from what I experienced.  It seems like most senior people are tired and waiting for juniors to ask about what they want to do while many junior people are just trying to figure out what the organization is.  Yes there are things that can be done and are done that help.

My personal experience - I was walked through level 1 and ESO qualifications for MS.  And now what?

I took a course for airborne photography and qualified SET.  Ok, so now I could technically teach MS, but to be honest, the last time I flew as a scanner was when I qualified 18 months ago.  There have been very few missions since I joined.  We have a sarex this weekend, so that's a good thing.

what's next?  I'll keep going to meetings, keep trying to get bcut/acut/mo.  I'll probably teach AP this summer.

Beyond that - I'm also a private pilot.  I'll probably start flying again in June (maybe?), I've been off due to personal finances.  Hopefully finally make the transition from Pipers to Cessnas and get a form 5 done.  I don't have the PIC hours to be MTP yet, so that's a matter of treading water too.

It's a matter of stumbling along...I like my squadron, they help me handle the culture and bureaucracy.

What else is there?  I've had ideas, but I don't have the time or energy to follow through on them effectively.

[smile]

Excellent inputs so far.
My 2 cents below.

I'm a Pvt Pilot, An Aviation crazy guy, have been in many volunteer organizations for more than 10 years.
I was in the same situation.This is what I did.I waited and waited for someone to guide me. Nothing happened.
well here is the best resource for all your questions.  www.capmembers.com
This website is an encyclopedia of everything CAP.
I read every page, every regulation, spent countless hours on this and learned everything myself.
I took a print out of Level 1 quizzes and completed them and applied for my level 1.
It took me 5 months.

Later on a New Senior Member came to join, I introduced myself and guided him to complete level 1 in 3 weeks.
Now I have kept a set of quizzes with me so that i can give them to any New SM who joins.

also I noticed that there are some Senior Members in my squadron for more than 6 years, but never completed the OFFICER BASIC COURSE.
I completed my OBC  in a jiffy.
I Spoke to the Education office in NHQ and requested them to allocate slots for all our senior members to take the exam online.They obliged my request.
Now Im giving them guidance and classes to pass the exam.  It took me countless efforts to convince them to join to take them exam.

CAP program is active as the Senior Members involved.
I did my Technical rating in Aerospace , Cadet Programs, Safety , Information Technology.
I finished my Chuck Yeager Award for Seniors.
I'm enrolled for Squadron Leadership school next month.
I also did ICS 100, 700, 800 , GES, 116, 117  etc etc

If you start the proactive process, atleast some will follow what you are doing and will be active.

This may will be an year in the program for me.
Dont give up.
by they way, I found this site a few days ago, and the people here are GREAT.

Excuse me if there are any spelling or grammer mistakes.

[abdsp51]

The unit I am apart of has been great, I was welcomed with open arms and I had members following up with me throughout the process.  Finished level 1 on Mon and waiting for it to clear to start level 2 and I plan to have it done as much as possible by end of Aug if not done.

[SarDragon]

also I noticed that there are some Senior Members in my squadron for more than 6 years, but never completed the OFFICER BASIC COURSE.
I completed my OBC  in a jiffy.

OBC is miles ahead of its predecessor - ECI 13. That was a 4 volume correspondence course know for its insomnia curative abilities. Many members, including myself, decided that the gain was not enough to offset the annoyance of doing the course. I made Captain through other means, and was comfortable there. Eventually, I did the course, to get my commander off my back, but it was not willingly.

I think that if these members you speak of were informed about the new course, and its ease of completion, they might be more willing to move ahead.