Uniforms on Memorial Day services

[BillB]

Hey Ned

Don't forget, YOU are one of "these guys."

[lordmonar]

Now we see the problem with barracks lawerying and reg dogs.

Following the regulations is very important.  But sometimes we encounter situations that our outside the regulations or even counter to the regulations.

That is why we have commanders and leaders placed in the chain of command.

Just  like we have judges to interpet laws...we have commanders and leaders who interpet regulations.

NHQ know the regulations and they have issued a one time (well two time actually) exception to the "wear CAP uniforms only on CAP time" rule.

It is clearly spelled out and no one is in danger of suddenly thinking that they can do loops in thier C-182 or start torturing cadets.
The slipper slope argument only goes so far.

[Grumpy]

I consider it inappropriate for our leadership to think that they can just do whatever they want but expect us to follow regulations to the letter.  That's a VERY slippery slope to go down.   

My God, you are so right!

First they want us to wear our uniforms to church in clear violation of the regs, then who knows where it will end!

We must keep a close eye on these guys, for sure.

[RiverAux]

I guess reading comprehension needs to be added to CAP's officer development program.  I'm out.

[ColonelJack]

Somehow, I'm reminded of the line that game show host Tom Kennedy used to say at the end of one of his programs ...

"Remember, it isn't what you say that counts, it's what You Don't Say."

Jack

[TCMajor]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this request from National.  Its no different that the Army Chief of Staff making the same request.  What I found interesting was the specific mention of uniform type to wear, or more specifically the absence of the Distinctive Uniform as an option.  Just something that struck me.

[Major Carrales]

I guess reading comprehension needs to be added to CAP's officer development program.  I'm out.

Did you ever think that, if your interpretation  of the world is different that everyone else's (including people in FULL AUTHORITY) that your interpenetration might be one that is less than correct?

CAP regulations and supplements are not like the US Constitution which is the Supreme Law of the Land, they are more like Federal Statues and State Laws.  Judicial functions in those governmental systems have an analogous concept in the CAP governing bodies.   Much as exceptions are made by judicial arbiters of the law and executive orders by the Chief Executive (I remind you it is an executive order that allowed CAP to continue and not suffer the same fate as Air Raid Wardens), such exception can be made. 

This was an official announcement that is a different animal that opportunistically asking the National Commander if you can wear item "X" and getting a "hand shake" undocumented affirmative.

[Major Lord]

I consider it inappropriate for our leadership to think that they can just do whatever they want but expect us to follow regulations to the letter.  That's a VERY slippery slope to go down.   

My God, you are so right!

First they want us to wear our uniforms to church in clear violation of the regs, then who knows where it will end!

We must keep a close eye on these guys, for sure.

Probably end  in death camps and genocide. That's how Mao, Lenin, and L. Ron Hubbard  started. Our otherwise saintly adherence to regulations will be stripped away in one fell swoop, and the fabric of the American way of life and the remnants of goodness in man will be abandoned in one moment in time. I will always try to remember where I was when life on this planet became unbearable due to directions contrary to moral and natural law being forced upon us by some guys from a small non-profit corporation in Alabama.

Major Lord
p.s. I think I will wear my BDU's to a Quaker meeting on Memorial day, or maybe a Wicca ceremony.....

[Major Lord]

I guess reading comprehension needs to be added to CAP's officer development program.  I'm out.

Did you ever think that, if your interpenetration of the world is different that everyone else's (including people in FULL AUTHORITY) that your interpenetration might be one that is less than correct?

CAP regulations and supplements are not like the US Constitution which is the Supreme Law of the Land, they are more like Federal Statues and State Laws.  Judicial functions in those governmental systems have an analogous concept in the CAP governing bodies.   Much as exceptions are made by judicial arbiters of the law and executive orders by the Chief Executive (I remind you it is an executive order that allowed CAP to continue and not suffer the same fate as Air Raid Wardens), such exception can be made. 

This was an official announcement that is a different animal that opportunistically asking the National Commander if you can wear item "X" and getting a "hand shake" undocumented affirmative.

"interpenetration" ? That sounds awful! I hope National does not pass any rules about that!

Major Lord

[titanII]

"interpenetration" ? That sounds awful! I hope National does not pass any rules about that!

Major Lord

I was waiting for someone to point that out... 

[JoeTomasone]

Now we see the problem with barracks lawerying and reg dogs.

Following the regulations is very important.  But sometimes we encounter situations that our outside the regulations or even counter to the regulations.

That is why we have commanders and leaders placed in the chain of command.

Just  like we have judges to interpet laws...we have commanders and leaders who interpet regulations.

NHQ know the regulations and they have issued a one time (well two time actually) exception to the "wear CAP uniforms only on CAP time" rule.

It is clearly spelled out and no one is in danger of suddenly thinking that they can do loops in thier C-182 or start torturing cadets.
The slipper slope argument only goes so far.

Ah, OK, I think I see your point now.

Regulations are binding on everyone except commanders and leaders, who interpret them for us - even when they are already black and white.

Thanks for straightening me out.   This opens up a whole new world of possibilities in CAP!    For example, I haven't been a Captain for 3 years yet, but if my Commander interprets that I had all of the qualifications for Major for long enough, I can get promoted now!    Or, maybe I can wear my uniform to work on meeting nights - I mean, hey, my commander could interpret that I *am* on my way to the meeting, right?  After all, I would go there right from work.    And hey - now I don't have to stow my BDU cap in my BDU trousers when I am indoors anymore - after all, it's always "in use" if I am in uniform, right?  I'm pretty sure that's how my commander would interpret that.     In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have demanded that the SM at Encampment get into uniform because he was "conducting in or participating in the cadet program" - after all, how could he be -- he's not a cadet!   I feel so embarrassed now.  Man, interpretation really is everything.

I can't believe I let those regulations cramp my style for so long.    A million thanks to you folks for clearing that all up for me.   

[Major Carrales]

I guess reading comprehension needs to be added to CAP's officer development program.  I'm out.

Did you ever think that, if your interpenetration of the world is different that everyone else's (including people in FULL AUTHORITY) that your interpenetration might be one that is less than correct?

CAP regulations and supplements are not like the US Constitution which is the Supreme Law of the Land, they are more like Federal Statues and State Laws.  Judicial functions in those governmental systems have an analogous concept in the CAP governing bodies.   Much as exceptions are made by judicial arbiters of the law and executive orders by the Chief Executive (I remind you it is an executive order that allowed CAP to continue and not suffer the same fate as Air Raid Wardens), such exception can be made. 

This was an official announcement that is a different animal that opportunistically asking the National Commander if you can wear item "X" and getting a "hand shake" undocumented affirmative.

"interpenetration" ? That sounds awful! I hope National does not pass any rules about that!

Major Lord

Fixed it...dang FireFox Spell corrector.   On, by the way, form the Cadet leadership lessons...focus more on the meaning of that is said (written) than on how it was said (written).  The meaning, despite the typo, was quite clear.

[Grumpy]

"Regulations are binding on everyone except commanders and leaders, who interpret them for us - even when they are already black and white."

Just like cadets being able to transfer out of a squadron to avoid discipline.

[RADIOMAN015]

I'm wondering why the same policy letter didn't specific to just wear your uniform to ANY Memorial Day observation event, whether it is a parade (some units don't participate in parades), cemeteries ceremony, etc 
RM 

[PHall]

"Regulations are binding on everyone except commanders and leaders, who interpret them for us - even when they are already black and white."

Just like cadets being able to transfer out of a squadron to avoid discipline.

[OFF TOPIC]

The losing unit can protest the transfer. If the cadet had pending "unfavorable personnel actions" pending and you didn't protest the transfer then it's your bad and no one else's.

[/OFF TOPIC]

[ol'fido]

Now we see the problem with barracks lawerying and reg dogs.

Following the regulations is very important.  But sometimes we encounter situations that our outside the regulations or even counter to the regulations.

That is why we have commanders and leaders placed in the chain of command.

Just  like we have judges to interpet laws...we have commanders and leaders who interpet regulations.

NHQ know the regulations and they have issued a one time (well two time actually) exception to the "wear CAP uniforms only on CAP time" rule.

It is clearly spelled out and no one is in danger of suddenly thinking that they can do loops in thier C-182 or start torturing cadets.
The slipper slope argument only goes so far.

Ah, OK, I think I see your point now.

Regulations are binding on everyone except commanders and leaders, who interpret them for us - even when they are already black and white.

Thanks for straightening me out.   This opens up a whole new world of possibilities in CAP!    For example, I haven't been a Captain for 3 years yet, but if my Commander interprets that I had all of the qualifications for Major for long enough, I can get promoted now!    Or, maybe I can wear my uniform to work on meeting nights - I mean, hey, my commander could interpret that I *am* on my way to the meeting, right?  After all, I would go there right from work.    And hey - now I don't have to stow my BDU cap in my BDU trousers when I am indoors anymore - after all, it's always "in use" if I am in uniform, right?  I'm pretty sure that's how my commander would interpret that.     In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have demanded that the SM at Encampment get into uniform because he was "conducting in or participating in the cadet program" - after all, how could he be -- he's not a cadet!   I feel so embarrassed now.  Man, interpretation really is everything.

I can't believe I let those regulations cramp my style for so long.    A million thanks to you folks for clearing that all up for me.

No problem. Anytime.

[Major Carrales]

Now we see the problem with barracks lawerying and reg dogs.

Following the regulations is very important.  But sometimes we encounter situations that our outside the regulations or even counter to the regulations.

That is why we have commanders and leaders placed in the chain of command.

Just  like we have judges to interpet laws...we have commanders and leaders who interpet regulations.

NHQ know the regulations and they have issued a one time (well two time actually) exception to the "wear CAP uniforms only on CAP time" rule.

It is clearly spelled out and no one is in danger of suddenly thinking that they can do loops in thier C-182 or start torturing cadets.
The slipper slope argument only goes so far.

Ah, OK, I think I see your point now.

Regulations are binding on everyone except commanders and leaders, who interpret them for us - even when they are already black and white.

Thanks for straightening me out.   This opens up a whole new world of possibilities in CAP!    For example, I haven't been a Captain for 3 years yet, but if my Commander interprets that I had all of the qualifications for Major for long enough, I can get promoted now!    Or, maybe I can wear my uniform to work on meeting nights - I mean, hey, my commander could interpret that I *am* on my way to the meeting, right?  After all, I would go there right from work.    And hey - now I don't have to stow my BDU cap in my BDU trousers when I am indoors anymore - after all, it's always "in use" if I am in uniform, right?  I'm pretty sure that's how my commander would interpret that.     In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have demanded that the SM at Encampment get into uniform because he was "conducting in or participating in the cadet program" - after all, how could he be -- he's not a cadet!   I feel so embarrassed now.  Man, interpretation really is everything.

I can't believe I let those regulations cramp my style for so long.    A million thanks to you folks for clearing that all up for me.

Anytime, and thanks for the trip down the path of the ridiculous.  In this case it wasn't a REGION, WING, GROUP or SQUADRON commander's decision on the matter it came from a CAP governing body. 

[JoeTomasone]

In this case it wasn't a REGION, WING, GROUP or SQUADRON commander's decision on the matter it came from a CAP governing body.

Right - one who issued clear regulations that spell out in detail how THEY and National HQ turn THEIR policies into regulations.   They made their own rules, don't follow them, and it's OK with everyone.   

They could easily issue policy (per the CAPR 5-4 reg, which, again, they caused to come into being), that changes CAPR 5-4 and permits them to issue memos like this that contradict regulations that (again) they devised - one which, in this case, states that deviations are not authorized.   

They could easily accomplish this the right way - they way that they themselves deemed that they should - yet they choose not to.   

Have you folks even read CAPR 5-4?   I really don't understand how you can defend this.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Right - one who issued clear regulations that spell out in detail how THEY and National HQ turn THEIR policies into regulations.   They made their own rules, don't follow them, and it's OK with everyone.   

They could easily issue policy (per the CAPR 5-4 reg, which, again, they caused to come into being), that changes CAPR 5-4 and permits them to issue memos like this that contradict regulations that (again) they devised - one which, in this case, states that deviations are not authorized.   

They could easily accomplish this the right way - they way that they themselves deemed that they should - yet they choose not to.   

Have you folks even read CAPR 5-4?   I really don't understand how you can defend this.

Your oath of membership clearly states that you will agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority within Civil Air Patrol. Although earlier in the oath, you agree to abide by the core values, regulations and policies of the organizations, the statement that you'll abide by decisions of those in authority could be taken to mean that when a capricious order is made, even if it violates regulation, common sense or safety, you must follow it. In other words: Regulation doesn't mean jack if a cult of personality exists. You could thank a certain former national commander for creating that environment, or maybe even a sitting president, but somehow we're moving from a culture of law and regulations to one of personality. That's dangerous. It also certainly doesn't help that a few of our core regulations are sorely lacking and out of date -- and they're being neglected, even if they're updated (like the new 10-1).

[lordmonar]

In this case it wasn't a REGION, WING, GROUP or SQUADRON commander's decision on the matter it came from a CAP governing body.

Right - one who issued clear regulations that spell out in detail how THEY and National HQ turn THEIR policies into regulations.   They made their own rules, don't follow them, and it's OK with everyone.

sure.  When I was a child my parents made rules....say bed time.....sometimes for exceptional reasons they made an exception...like Christmas.

They could easily issue policy (per the CAPR 5-4 reg, which, again, they caused to come into being), that changes CAPR 5-4 and permits them to issue memos like this that contradict regulations that (again) they devised - one which, in this case, states that deviations are not authorized. 

They could easily accomplish this the right way - they way that they themselves deemed that they should - yet they choose not to.   

Have you folks even read CAPR 5-4?   I really don't understand how you can defend this.

So quit.  It has always been like that....always will...both in CAP, USAF and most corporations that I know.