The significance of 2Lt in CAP

[flyboy53]

I wish you guys would drop the flight officer rank stuff. It wouldn't work because somone with a big ego at some point is going to want to be a super grand puba flight officer with all the devices to accompany it...or you're going to hear that everyone can't be a certain flight officer rank.

With all of the responses, I know I forgot that ultimately any promotion or appointment rests with the unit commander recommending the individual. Let the commander decide if someone is worthy of a certain rank.

Ultimately, we have individual responsibility to do our duties with enthusiasm and excellence and complete the existing training requirements -- all of them -- to prove that we are worthy of promotion. In the end, we are a volunteer auxiliary and that rank, whether you want to achieve it or not, may be the only measurable recognition worthy to achieve.

[tsrup]

You know, as soon as these flight officer ideas take off and get implemented, there will be a capTalk thread on how meaningless FO is..

Lets face it people, there is a bottom to our rank structure, and it is 2Lt. 

[flyboy53]

Yeah, so I noticed.

How much does the responsibility of making senior members know the meaning of their ranks belongs to all of us as mentors?....Everything.

If there is to be a meaning to a certain rank, I think the responsibility for communicating it belongs to each of us. That's where we need to start this debate.

If someone doesn't know how to salute, doesn't present a professional (military) image, doesn't the responsibility fall on each of us to mentor that individual into being a better example?

[OldSalt]

Lets face it people, there is a bottom to our rank structure, and it is 2Lt.

Incorrect - the bottom of our rank structure is Cadet Airman, but for just Seniors it is SMWOG. Then there are the 8 Enlisted ranks (Airman through CCMSgt), 3 FO grades, THEN comes 2LT. Technically 2LT is a middle/upper-grade (Being 12th in the line of 19 total - #19 being Maj Gen).

And that's the "problem", our perception of 2LT does not match its correct placement within the total current grade structure - and therefore all of the grades above it are similarly lessened in perceived value, and people scratch their heads when they see an enlisted or FO rank pass by.

This misperception is perpetuated because the "enlisted" and FO grades are very rarely seen, and SMWOG only lasts 6 months. If we want 2LT to actually be the bottom rank - then let's get rid of the "enlisted", FO, and SMWOG rank and actually make it the bottom.

[Eclipse]

((*sigh*))

This discussion is about Senior Member grades. Bringing cadets into this will only muddy the waters, since all cadets, regardless of grade, are lower in both the command chain and the courtesy chain than even an "in the door" Senior, and their grades are much more an expected / required part of service, tied more to time-in than place in the universe.

I will grant the lowest SM grade is Flight Officer, though one could argue that its not really a "grade", but a "grade equivalent" since those three funny-looking epaulet sleeves are only available to those members who are under 21, and they are not permanent - upon reaching the age of 21, you revert to SMWOG (which is not a grade, by definition) unless someone chooses to promote you (and eServices never recognizes the FO's, anyway).

But even that analogy is not really appropriate, since FO's are still lower in the courtesy chain than a butter bar (though I would posit above SMWOG)

As to stripes...

There are currently no CAP NCO grades for Senior Members - the 100 or so members wearing stripes on CAP uniforms are doing so
in a ceremonious fashion which recognizes their NCO grade with a different service, not within CAP.  There is no way within CAP
to enter as an Airman and move up, nor is there any separation of duties or status which would justify their existence separate from another service.

[DogCollar]

Lets face it people, there is a bottom to our rank structure, and it is 2Lt.

Incorrect - the bottom of our rank structure is Cadet Airman, but for just Seniors it is SMWOG. Then there are the 8 Enlisted ranks (Airman through CCMSgt), 3 FO grades, THEN comes 2LT. Technically 2LT is a middle/upper-grade (Being 12th in the line of 19 total - #19 being Maj Gen).

And that's the "problem", our perception of 2LT does not match its correct placement within the total current grade structure - and therefore all of the grades above it are similarly lessened in perceived value, and people scratch their heads when they see an enlisted or FO rank pass by.

This misperception is perpetuated because the "enlisted" and FO grades are very rarely seen, and SMWOG only lasts 6 months. If we want 2LT to actually be the bottom rank - then let's get rid of the "enlisted", FO, and SMWOG rank and actually make it the bottom.

My perception of a 2nd LT. is of someone who is fairly new in their CAP career, and thus someone who should be mentored by more experienced officers.  This is someone that needs encouragement to gain experience, chose a specialty track, and to engage in Level II Professional Development.

Someone who chooses to remain a 2nd Lt. in order to provide a singular function in a squadron...that's fine.  However, it is clear that advancement in grade comes with advancement in Professional Development.

[spacecommand]

I guess one of the major things that needs to be cleared up is that for the USAF and CAP, the abbreviation for second lieutenant is: 2d Lt

The Army uses 2LT and Marines 2ndLt

[OldSalt]

As to stripes...

There are currently no CAP NCO grades for Senior Members - the 100 or so members wearing stripes on CAP uniforms are doing so in a ceremonious fashion which recognizes their NCO grade with a different service, not within CAP.  There is no way within CAP to enter as an Airman and move up, nor is there any separation of duties or status which would justify their existence separate from another service.

Again, incorrect. Those enlisted ranks are grades within CAP and are not "ceremonious only". See CAPR 35-5, sections 1-2, 1-3 c., and SECTION F.  Now, there are restrictions on who can be granted those grades, just like the FO grades, but once granted, they are official grades and should be respected accordingly. Enlisted grades below NCO grades are available as well per CAPM 39-1 Figure 6-4, and as noted in Table 6-1, Note 3., however, there is no awarding criteria in CAPR 35-5 that I can find, and there is no interim letter or other regulation I can see that supercedes these entries from CAPM 39-1. Of course I may be wrong as well and there may be some regulation guidance that I'm not aware of yet. 

So, whether or not the bottom 4 grades for Seniors are still able to be awarded, if you are authorized one of those grades, they may be worn on the uniform and again should be afforded respect accordingly.

[Eclipse]

As to stripes...

There are currently no CAP NCO grades for Senior Members - the 100 or so members wearing stripes on CAP uniforms are doing so in a ceremonious fashion which recognizes their NCO grade with a different service, not within CAP.  There is no way within CAP to enter as an Airman and move up, nor is there any separation of duties or status which would justify their existence separate from another service.

Again, incorrect. Those enlisted ranks are grades within CAP and are not "ceremonious only". See CAPR 35-5, sections 1-2, 1-3 c., and SECTION F.  Now, there are restrictions on who can be granted those grades, just like the FO grades, but once granted, they are official grades and should be respected accordingly. Enlisted grades below NCO grades are available as well per CAPM 39-1 Figure 6-4, and as noted in Table 6-1, Note 3., however, there is no awarding criteria in CAPR 35-5 that I can find, and there is no interim letter or other regulation I can see that supercedes these entries from CAPM 39-1. Of course I may be wrong as well and there may be some regulation guidance that I'm not aware of yet. 

So, whether or not the bottom 4 grades for Seniors are still able to be awarded, if you are authorized one of those grades, they may be worn on the uniform and again should be afforded respect accordingly.

No one said anything about not respecting them, they are simply not part of CAP's Professional Development program or internal grade structure.

You cannot earn them organically as a member of CAP.
You cannot be promoted as an NCO within CAP.
The progression clock starts from zero should you choose down the road to accept a CAP officer appointment.
Their wear is completely dependent upon service and substantiation from another organization.

CAP NHQ has chosen to allow these members to wear stripes equivalent to another service, which is fine, but to believe they are a part
of the normal CAP grade structure, or even fit the CAP model is misinformed at best.

[AirAux]

Eclipse is right and there just isn't a better way of saying it..

[OldSalt]

No one said anything about not respecting them, they are simply not part of CAP's Professional Development program or internal grade structure.

You cannot earn them organically as a member of CAP.
You cannot be promoted as an NCO within CAP.
The progression clock starts from zero should you choose down the road to accept a CAP officer appointment.
Their wear is completely dependent upon service and substantiation from another organization.

CAP NHQ has chosen to allow these members to wear stripes equivalent to another service, which is fine, but to believe they are a part of the normal CAP grade structure, or even fit the CAP model is misinformed at best.

Wrong on all accounts -

1. You must be a CAP member first to be to awarded CAP NCO ranks - these ranks are CAP Ranks awarded based upon external qualifying critera the same as Physicians, Lawyers, Chaplains, etc. Hence, they are organic to the CAP organization.

2. You must be a SMWOG prior to being promoted to these NCO ranks. And, if your external qualifying criteria changes - i.e. you are still active duty, guard, or reserve and they promote you up the NCO ranks - then you could move up the CAP NCO tree as well.

3. Which progresssion clock are you talking about here? Your "time in CAP service" clock is always moving forward and you will still earn Red Service Ribbon qualifying time while a CAP NCO. If you choose at some point to convert to the CAP Officer system, then your CAP officer progression starts at "0" in terms of qualifying for the higher officer ranks, just like it does from the moment you pin on 2d Lt from SMWOG.

4. While these grades are externally qualified grades, it is dependent on CAP Commander approval just the like rest of our grades. None of our grades are automatic.

Please guys, read the regs / manuals - this is what they currently say, and our personal perceptions or ideas one way or the other do not count here. Show me the regs that differ from what I've said and I'll gratiously accept the correction and apologize.

[Eclipse]

Yeah, ok.

[Short Field]

Clutching at very thin straws and quibbling over semantics....

[flyboy53]

As to stripes...

There are currently no CAP NCO grades for Senior Members - the 100 or so members wearing stripes on CAP uniforms are doing so in a ceremonious fashion which recognizes their NCO grade with a different service, not within CAP.  There is no way within CAP to enter as an Airman and move up, nor is there any separation of duties or status which would justify their existence separate from another service.

Again, incorrect. Those enlisted ranks are grades within CAP and are not "ceremonious only". See CAPR 35-5, sections 1-2, 1-3 c., and SECTION F.  Now, there are restrictions on who can be granted those grades, just like the FO grades, but once granted, they are official grades and should be respected accordingly. Enlisted grades below NCO grades are available as well per CAPM 39-1 Figure 6-4, and as noted in Table 6-1, Note 3., however, there is no awarding criteria in CAPR 35-5 that I can find, and there is no interim letter or other regulation I can see that supercedes these entries from CAPM 39-1. Of course I may be wrong as well and there may be some regulation guidance that I'm not aware of yet. 

So, whether or not the bottom 4 grades for Seniors are still able to be awarded, if you are authorized one of those grades, they may be worn on the uniform and again should be afforded respect accordingly.

Sorry, but you're the one whose wrong. The only way that these NCOs wear their rank is if they earned it previously in the military. There are no promotions. They're essentially frozen in rank unless they step up to the plate and pursue officer status.

[OldSalt]

Clutching at very thin straws and quibbling over semantics....

If CAP's manuals and regs are "thin straws", then our organization is built on "thin straws".

Sorry, but you're the one whose wrong. The only way that these NCOs wear their rank is if they earned it previously in the military. There are no promotions. They're essentially frozen in rank unless they step up to the plate and pursue officer status.

Come on man, read the previous posts and the regs / manuals for yourself.
If someone can quote me the reg / manual (not opinion, heresay, inference, implication, demagoguery, vodoo saying, poetic quip, linguistic imaginings, drug induced vision, etc. etc.) that disagrees with what I've said, then I'll humbly eat my shirt and go away ashamed and rightly put in my place.

Until then - consider me right on all accounts. 

[SarDragon]

Newb, I think you're trying to teach a pig to sing here. I don't know how long you've been in CAP (apparently not very long), or what other military experience you have (again apparently not very much), but arguing with people on here whose CAP experience greatly exceeds yours is not going to "win friends and influence people."

The regs, sadly, do not exactly match common practice. In the case of uniforms, there are deeply ingrained practices that go against the strict interpretation of the written word, but are taking years to die out. Until the change comes from within to upgrade practice, there are always going to be differences. We know the differences. Trying to shove them down our throats isn't going to accomplish anything.

Trying to teach a pig to sing wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

Oh, yeah, the SMWOG thing.

Once more:

SMWOG is nothing more than a status, describing those members who are neither cadets, nor officers, nor NCOs.

On any documentation assigning grade to a Senior Member, the proper designation is SM. It's on the membership and ID cards, and all forms having a block for grade. When you get demoted from 2d Lt, it's to SM, per CAPF 2.

Regarding CAP NCO grades, From CAPR 35-5:

c. CAP NCO grades are:
(1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
(2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
(3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
(4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
(5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)

If an AD member receives an AD promotion, he is eligible for the equivalent CAP promotion. This is also covered in the 35-5.

As for the graphics in CAPM 39-1, they are 40 years olde, and no one has bothered to update them.

[Eclipse]

Until then - consider me right on all accounts.

You are confusing the mechanics of the allowance for wearing stripes from another service with the intention and purpose within CAP.

[lordmonar]

Nice divierstion from the question at hand though.

FOs and NCOs aside.....2d Lt is first grade the majority of senior members hold in CAP.

It is the bottom of the pile as far as PD goes, it is the lowlies of the "normal" SM totem pole.

So....back to the question.....why do we need to improve the meaning of 2d Lt?

What do we get out of it?  How will it affect the other grades?


On a side note....if you read through some of the other treads you will see a lot of discussion on if we really need FO and NCO grades in CAP.

[FW]

This is what the new reg (35-5) states on the issue of NCO grades in CAP:

SECTION F- NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER GRADES
6-1. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.

Receiving the NCO grade in CAP is analogous to an officer in the military receiving his same grade in CAP (max of Lt Col).  However, until the National Board figures out a NCO program, they are stuck in the grade.  They can't be promoted unless they "slide" into an officer grade.  The "appointment" to this grade is only available to military members who earned it.  Since there is no NCO track, CAP NCO's do not move up and, until this year, were not eligible to go to NSC. 

IMHO, NCO grades are a courtesy to those who wish to wear the grade in CAP, nothing more.  The first "real" grade in CAP is 2nd LT for SMs.

[Eclipse]

Receiving the NCO grade in CAP is analogous to an officer in the military receiving his same grade in CAP (max of Lt Col).

Sort of.  An Army Captain could join CAP, receive an appointment as a CAP Captain, and then progress to Major and above from there (PD, tig, etc., not withstanding).  Not so for those wearing equivalent stripes from other services.