http://www.thedailynewrochelle.com/news/supposed-army-general-pow-exposed (http://www.thedailynewrochelle.com/news/supposed-army-general-pow-exposed)
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=28054 (http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=28054)
http://www.lohud.com/article/20111223/NEWS02/312230045/POW-general-grand-marshal-s-record-service-fails-materialize- (http://www.lohud.com/article/20111223/NEWS02/312230045/POW-general-grand-marshal-s-record-service-fails-materialize-)
http://www.newrochelletalk.com/content/media-feeding-frenzy-phony-general-story-erupts-fermijon-marrero-cracks-admits-lies-adds-mor (http://www.newrochelletalk.com/content/media-feeding-frenzy-phony-general-story-erupts-fermijon-marrero-cracks-admits-lies-adds-mor)
Even the local Veteran's organizations were rooked in this situation.
Grr... These kinds of people annoy me. There's a few people that I know who do something like that, but not to that extent. Thank god for that...
So...
If nothing else, why would someone who retired 20+ years earlier be wearing a current uniform(s)?
Does the USAC get credit for busting him? I'm assuming he was never a member, right?
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 08:04:41 PM
So...
If nothing else, why would someone who retired 20+ years earlier be wearing a current uniform(s)?
Does the USAC get credit for busting him? I'm assuming he was never a member, right?
USAC wasn't seeking "credit" per se. Colonel Land's son, 2LT Land, has a google search that pops up mentions of the USAC when they show up in the Google results. The USAC got a mention regarding this gentleman and him bringing a cadet unit to New Rochelle. He'd only ever contacted us (some months back) and went no further, and something wasn't quite right about him. When this all started to percolate, we were still only a "mention," but there is no way Colonel Land wanted the USAC's name associated with this, so he called the paper to let them know "Hey, look, this guy is not, nor has ever been, one of us, and does not represent us." to set the record straight and to be sure that any mention of the USAC in relation to this guy was not in the "He's a cadet general, yeahhhhh.." variety.
ETA: retirees can wear the "current uniform." But you actually have to _be_ a retiree, not a guy who was a Private for a year in 1976.
Quote from: NIN on December 28, 2011, 08:19:05 PMETA: retirees can wear the "current uniform." But you actually have to _be_ a retiree, not a guy who was a Private for a year in 1976.
Can, yes. But how many are going to go out and buy the whole nine yards, especially a combat version?
Is it common to see long-time retirees in current uniforms? If anything I'd think they'd want to wear the one they retired in.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 28, 2011, 08:19:05 PMETA: retirees can wear the "current uniform." But you actually have to _be_ a retiree, not a guy who was a Private for a year in 1976.
Can, yes. But how many are going to go out and buy the whole nine yards, especially a combat version?
Is it common to see long-time retirees in current uniforms? If anything I'd think they'd want to wear the one they retired in.
Last Veterans day...I saw a lot of very old guys wearing the current uniform...both service dress and battle dress.
And a lot of guys just wearing what ever they wanted.
So......yes it happens. There are just as many old farts out there wanting to relive their glory days as there are wanna bees....the difference is the first group earned the right....and the others need to be beaten with a cane 50 times. >:(
Quote from: Eclipse on December 28, 2011, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 28, 2011, 08:19:05 PMETA: retirees can wear the "current uniform." But you actually have to _be_ a retiree, not a guy who was a Private for a year in 1976.
Can, yes. But how many are going to go out and buy the whole nine yards, especially a combat version?
Is it common to see long-time retirees in current uniforms? If anything I'd think they'd want to wear the one they retired in.
Can't forget the "Shrinking Uniform Syndrome" ;)
http://www.p12.nysed.gov/psc/documents/PostedJointServicesPRO.pdf (http://www.p12.nysed.gov/psc/documents/PostedJointServicesPRO.pdf)
He (Mr. Marrero) deliberately fooled (or attempted to fool) a lot a people, however he may end up in court as a defendant due to the document above. Even though the Feds are apparently not all that interested in charging him under the SVA, NYS Penal Law states:
"S 175.35 Offering a false instrument for filing in the first degree.
A person is guilty of offering a false instrument for filing in the first degree when, knowing that a written instrument contains a false statement or false information, and with intent to defraud the state or any political subdivision, public authority or public benefit corporation of the state, he offers or presents it to a public office, public servant, public authority or public benefit corporation with the knowledge or belief that it will be filed with, registered or recorded in or otherwise become a part of the records of such public office, public servant, public authority or public benefit corporation.
Offering a false instrument for filing in the first degree is a class E felony."
If anything, I think this serves as an excellent cautionary tale. "Доверяй, но проверяй" ("Trust, but verify")
Quote from: Bobble on December 28, 2011, 09:19:21 PM
http://www.p12.nysed.gov/psc/documents/PostedJointServicesPRO.pdf (http://www.p12.nysed.gov/psc/documents/PostedJointServicesPRO.pdf)
Wow - considering this was a proposed school program, that document isn't exactly a shining example of grammar.
Tru dat.
Just curious from the title, how many faker's does CAP get? Not many wanting to go around faking being "Civil Air Patrol" (though maybe some maybe do exist). Or how many fakers have tried to join CAP?
A cursory glance of these websites that are exposing these fakers, from "fake marine" to "fake generals" the vast majority of the fakers out there tend to want to fake being in the Army or Marines (there are Navy fakers, CG fakers and AF fakers as well), but the Army and Marines tend to get the most.
This guy tops my list of being super obviously fake (AF Faker):
http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg (http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg)
I know that in my 8 years with CAP I have run into at least two people who have faked their military service and their CAP service to be able to wear extra rank.
We had a guy in our wing who claimed to be a medically retired Army Col. Former commander of a major Army Recruiting unit. He bamboozeld TNWG into giving him LT Col and used that as his basis for rank when he transfered here to NVWG.
When asked to provide a DD215 he decided that CAP was not for him.
He had a DD2A (brown dependant's ID) that said he was medicaly retired or some such as that.
We notifed the local OSI office and made sure that his CAP membership was terminated.
Turns out he was only like a E-3 or something like that...but he was a BGen in the U.S. Army Volunteer Reserves or something like that.
Second guy I did not get the details...but when he was asked for his DD215 he decided CAP was not for him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Volunteer_Reserve_Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Volunteer_Reserve_Association)
Quote from: spacecommand on December 28, 2011, 09:54:35 PM
http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg (http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg)
Ohh.. MSgt Soup Sandwich. He's my personal hero!
The U.S. Army Cadet Corp mailed a part of a member's personnel (DD-214) file to the media? He will probably sue them......We had a fake Army Colonel for awhile. When the FBI contacted me, they said that they had one "fake" Colonel ( Wing Commander) calling another fake "Colonel" ( crazy person) a fake.......They did not take it very seriously, and the matter was dropped.
Major Lord
If the 'privileged' information is blacked out, there nothing wrong with disclosure. There are many DD-214 copies on the net in the poser exposure sites, and they have all been properly sanitized.
Army regulation 670-1 allows for honorably discharged veterans with wartime service as defined in current law (need not be declared, if you can join the American Legion then you meet the reg) to wear the current Dress uniform at appropriate patriotic and holiday celebrations with the highest rank held displayed along with all awards and decorations.
And my favourite, a faker from Down Under, posing as an RAAF Wing Commander:
(http://www.anzmi.net/bain/bainallawards.jpg)
(http://www.anzmi.net/bain/medals.jpg)
He was actually a Wing Commander in the Australian Air Force Cadets, kind of like a CAP senior member.
I guess he put on all those mini-US medals rather than using Aussie/Commonwealth ones because he thought they wouldn't be as recognisable...even though many Australians and New Zealanders who served in Vietnam did get some US hardware, like the Air Medal.
Quote from: cap235629 on December 28, 2011, 11:27:47 PM
(need not be declared, if you can join the American Legion then you meet the reg)
If it WERE required to be declared...wasn't our last declared war WWII?
Quote from: CyBorg on December 28, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on December 28, 2011, 11:27:47 PM
(need not be declared, if you can join the American Legion then you meet the reg)
If it WERE required to be declared...wasn't our last declared war WWII?
yes
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:25:48 PM
We had a guy in our wing who claimed to be a medically retired Army Col. Former commander of a major Army Recruiting unit. He bamboozeld TNWG into giving him LT Col and used that as his basis for rank when he transfered here to NVWG.
ROFL :o
Quote from: spacecommand on December 28, 2011, 09:54:35 PM
Just curious from the title, how many faker's does CAP get? Not many wanting to go around faking being "Civil Air Patrol" (though maybe some maybe do exist). Or how many fakers have tried to join CAP?
A cursory glance of these websites that are exposing these fakers, from "fake marine" to "fake generals" the vast majority of the fakers out there tend to want to fake being in the Army or Marines (there are Navy fakers, CG fakers and AF fakers as well), but the Army and Marines tend to get the most.
This guy tops my list of being super obviously fake (AF Faker):
http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg (http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-2.jpg)
You do know, with all of those ribbons, badges, and medals, he deserves to be promoted to CMSAF. He could save the entire universe. It is said all of those ribbons prove to be bullet proof, so his left chest is definately well protected.
Heck...
When I was in the Army Reserves (yes...I was for 4 years. We all have lapses in judgement) I had a MSgt E-8 in my unit who wore a SEAL Trident. He had worn it for years. All it took was one real SEAL to confront him and his 20+ year lie came crashing down around him.
There was just an article on something like recently.
Even the Army get's fakers.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/ (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/)
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2011, 05:36:44 PM
There was just an article on something like recently.
Even the Army get's fakers.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/ (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/)
Holy crap. A Command Sergeant Major at that! You would think he would be happy to just let his chevrons and hash marks speak for themselves at that point.
That'll make two.... There was a CSM at Ft. Hood that got busted for posing as a Vietnam POW. Then, there was a major in I think NV who got busted for wearing unauthorized awards.... The list goes on and on and on...
Quote from: CAP_Marine on December 29, 2011, 06:09:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2011, 05:36:44 PM
There was just an article on something like recently.
Even the Army get's fakers.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/ (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-crump-sentenced-to-six-months-030911/)
Holy crap. A Command Sergeant Major at that! You would think he would be happy to just let his chevrons and hash marks speak for themselves at that point.
Well, the only problem is, it was his fraud that led to his promotions and assignments. Unlike the Marines, in the Army you get points for badges and certain medals...hence.....those fradulent medals and badges helped him get there
We do tend to get fakers in CAP (and the USAC, and I bet the NSCC, too) for a LOT of reasons
And by fakers I mean "people who say they are one thing when they are really something else" or who deliberately misrepresent themselves to gain advancement in the organization.
I met a CAP officer once, he was a Major. Older gent, a retired USAFR E-9. He'd also had retired from the Senior Executive Service at the State Department in his civilian life. Was not qualified for the Red Service Ribbon when I met him, yet he was a Major.
He was an odd duck, not a bad guy overall, but not well versed in CAP stuff considering his advanced grade. He'd been advanced quickly due to his USAF senior NCO background and his standing with the State Department (which he liked to repeat, repeatedly, to everybody about his experience in the "senior executive service with the State Department," and repeating himself liberally. Do I need to repeat that?). I think he was made a governmental affairs officer to get him that advanced rank quickly.
Even his USAF knowledge was, well, odd, somewhat dated, and did not reflect what I thought an E-9's "worldview" about the USAF really would be. When inconsistencies in his USAF narrative popped up, he attributed them to the fact that he was in intelligence.... (the ellipsis there is intentional, as that was the way he'd say it: "Well, you know, when I was the Air Force I worked in intelligence...." and leave the listener to draw his or her own inferences about his level of sneaky-pete-ness. He wouldn't say "I did classified stuff.." or "I can't talk about what I did.." but he'd just lay it out there and let it percolate)
I finally saw his resume one day, and while it did reflect his USAFR service ("Intelligence") , his State Department creds were considerably less expansive than "Senior Executive Service." He'd worked for a bunch of senior executive service types, and his resume said he'd been "Selected for Senior Executive Service training" (emphasis mine), but wasn't actually IN the Senior Executive Service of the State Department.
But based on his fairly inflated claims of executive experience for the USG, he was made a wing commander 5 or 6 months short of having 2 years in CAP. Kind of makes you go "Hmmmmm"....
BTW, this goes back to some pretty core-value kinds of things for me, and makes me cautious about people when their story doesn't match their facts.
Sometimes, there is a good reason (my understanding of the facts are poor) or there is not (their story is poor). But then I have to ask "Why?"
Why lie to get into a volunteer organization? The great pay? The adulation and adoration of thousands of cheering citizens? The perks?
I'm immediately distrustful of people who have seriously inconsistent stories and they want to work with cadets. Call me paranoid, but if you're willing to lie about your background/accomplishments, whats to stop you from lying about other things? Cadet Protection? Finance?
Lieutenant Colonel Ninness' story brings to mind a big reason I have a problem with CAP handing out railway tracks and butterballs to people off the street who don't know the first thing about CAP.
I certainly don't want to disrespect the AFRES E-9 he mentioned, but what I have an even bigger problem with is handing out advanced grade to people on the basis of civilian qualifications who don't know bog-all about CAP and don't really want to learn. Even legal, medical/nursing and padres have to go through a military orientation course before they get their bars and leaves pinned on. I've known too many of these who get CAP rank and even promoted without ever having to have anything like SLS, CLC, RSC, etc.
We did have a chaplain in one of my units who was just the opposite. He was a Presbyterian minister working on a D.Min. (I think) who also decided to train and qualify for GT and as an Observer. Great, great guy.
I think that any uniformed organisation is going to attract its share of poseurs, unfortunately. I've heard of SDF's having to turf members for presenting qualifications for advanced rank/grade that were bogus. I remember an SDF trying to recruit me around the same time I first joined CAP that said they'd grant me W-1 just because I had a two-year degree and did a technical job.
Quote from: Flying Pig on December 29, 2011, 04:48:53 PM
I had a MSgt E-8 in my unit who wore a SEAL Trident. He had worn it for years. All it took was one real SEAL to confront him and his 20+ year lie came crashing down around him.
Man, I would not want to be the guy that got caught posing as a SEAL, by a SEAL >:D
Quote from: CyBorg on December 29, 2011, 09:04:35 PM
Even legal, medical/nursing and padres have to go through a military orientation course before they get their bars and leaves pinned on
And even they aren't always the best prepared for military life... A man I know used to be a dentist in the Navy. Once he got commissioned, he went to the uniform store and bought a cover with all the (wrong) scrambled eggs and such. He didn't know better, he just that it looked good...
Needless to say, he got chewed out quite a bit ;D
Quote from: titanII on December 30, 2011, 12:17:23 AM
A man I know used to be a dentist in the Navy. Once he got commissioned, he went to the uniform store and bought a cover with all the (wrong) scrambled eggs and such. He didn't know better, he just that it looked good...Needless to say, he got chewed out quite a bit ;D
Commissioned as LT or LTCDR?
I can never get straight whether or not LTCDR's in the Navy/CG/NOAA/USPHS wear scrambled eggs...
Quote from: titanII on December 30, 2011, 12:17:23 AM
Man, I would not want to be the guy that got caught posing as a SEAL, by a SEAL >:D
Nor I. I value my continued reasonably good health too much. :o
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:45:51 AM
Quote from: titanII on December 30, 2011, 12:17:23 AM
A man I know used to be a dentist in the Navy. Once he got commissioned, he went to the uniform store and bought a cover with all the (wrong) scrambled eggs and such. He didn't know better, he just that it looked good...Needless to say, he got chewed out quite a bit ;D
Commissioned as LT or LTCDR?
I can never get straight whether or not LTCDR's in the Navy/CG/NOAA/USPHS wear scrambled eggs...
That's
LCDR, and they do not wear scrambled eggs.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:45:51 AM
I can never get straight whether or not LTCDR's in the Navy/CG/NOAA/USPHS wear scrambled eggs...
LCDR's do not wear scrambled eggs. CDR's and CAPT's wear half brim. Flag's wear full brim.
Quote from: Major Lord on December 28, 2011, 11:04:17 PM
The U.S. Army Cadet Corps mailed a part of a member's personnel (DD-214) file to the media?
Actually, I simply sent a link to the DD-214 which was posted at www.pownetwork.org (http://www.pownetwork.org). The file is scrubbed (no SSN) and available through a FOIA request.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:25:48 PM
We had a guy in our wing who claimed to be a medically retired Army Col. Former commander of a major Army Recruiting unit. He bamboozeld TNWG into giving him LT Col and used that as his basis for rank when he transfered here to NVWG.
His name was Barry something. We dealt with him too and then outed him to proper authority. Later saw him as a BG in the "Army Volunteer Reserve." Oddly, years later, he tried again submit a request to form a USAC unit...ugh.
Quote from: COL Land on December 30, 2011, 05:43:51 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:25:48 PM
We had a guy in our wing who claimed to be a medically retired Army Col. Former commander of a major Army Recruiting unit. He bamboozeld TNWG into giving him LT Col and used that as his basis for rank when he transfered here to NVWG.
His name was Barry something. We dealt with him too and then outed him to proper authority. Later saw him as a BG in the "Army Volunteer Reserve." Oddly, years later, he tried again submit a request to form a USAC unit...ugh.
That's the bozo! Barry Keller. With the U.S. National Defense Corps......and I just learned...the 2012 commander of the Las Vegas USCGAUX flotilla!
RiverAux.....you need to ping your leadership about this guy!
http://uscgaux-lasvegas.org/administration/commander-keller/ (http://uscgaux-lasvegas.org/administration/commander-keller/)
:o
Was he always an army aviator?
Also...unless something has radically changed since I was an Auxiliarist, rank titles are not used.
The proper address that I remember would be "Barry Keller, Flotilla Commander."
Speaking of which...I've never been good with rank abbreviations other than the USAF, Luftwaffe and Commonwealth. "LtCdr" probably came from Star Trek or something similar.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 04:45:51 AM
Commissioned as LT or LTCDR?
I honestly have no idea.
It is actually Sr Army Aircrew Wings, he is also wearing the EFMB. Hinting that he was a medic in a dustoff type unit, or he switched MOS's.
Quote from: CyBorg on December 30, 2011, 07:51:45 AM
Also...unless something has radically changed since I was an Auxiliarist, rank titles are not used.
The proper address that I remember would be "Barry Keller, Flotilla Commander."
Speaking of which...I've never been good with rank abbreviations other than the USAF, Luftwaffe and Commonwealth. "LtCdr" probably came from Star Trek or something similar.
That whole site is tore up from the floor up.
Quote from: COL Land on December 30, 2011, 05:40:55 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on December 28, 2011, 11:04:17 PM
The U.S. Army Cadet Corps mailed a part of a member's personnel (DD-214) file to the media?
Actually, I simply sent a link to the DD-214 which was posted at www.pownetwork.org (http://www.pownetwork.org). The file is scrubbed (no SSN) and available through a FOIA request.
Sir,
I hope I did not leave you with the impression I think you did a
bad thing! Its just that doing the
right thing often ends in lawsuits and death threats from bad employees and volunteers. Its better to just humanely euthanize them.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on December 30, 2011, 06:34:50 PMI hope I did not leave you with the impression I think you did a bad thing! Its just that doing the right thing often ends in lawsuits and death threats from bad employees and volunteers. Its better to just humanely euthanize them.
I see you're as "warm and fuzzy" as ever! :)
Having "outed" no less than five fake "Special Forces Colonels" in the past several years, a number of fake Drill Sergeants, and a bogus Navy SEAL or two...I've had my fair share of threats. Ugh...part of the job.
Happy New Year!
Quote from: COL Land on January 01, 2012, 02:04:05 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on December 30, 2011, 06:34:50 PMI hope I did not leave you with the impression I think you did a bad thing! Its just that doing the right thing often ends in lawsuits and death threats from bad employees and volunteers. Its better to just humanely euthanize them.
I see you're as "warm and fuzzy" as ever! :)
Having "outed" no less than five fake "Special Forces Colonels" in the past several years, a number of fake Drill Sergeants, and a bogus Navy SEAL or two...I've had my fair share of threats. Ugh...part of the job.
Happy New Year!
Yes, I am well known for my sensitive nature...... If you have shot down five fake colonels, I think you are a Fake-Colonel Ace! FYI, you met our fake Colonel when we met with you on Camp SLO a number of years ago. He had ID and everything.
Major Lord
I'm still convinced a certain individual that broke away from the ACA in Southern California is another of those .. Every time, more and more fakery was abound. Yeah, they claim to be "doing good" by mentoring cadets to Spaatz or near, however, really? Is that really mentoring on a solid foundation?
Quote from: COL Land on January 01, 2012, 02:04:05 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on December 30, 2011, 06:34:50 PMI hope I did not leave you with the impression I think you did a bad thing! Its just that doing the right thing often ends in lawsuits and death threats from bad employees and volunteers. Its better to just humanely euthanize them.
Having "outed" no less than five fake "Special Forces Colonels" in the past several years, a number of fake Drill Sergeants, and a bogus Navy SEAL or two...I've had my fair share of threats. Ugh...part of the job.
JOSEPH M. LAND, SR.
COL, GS, USAC
Chief of Staff
Headquarters, U.S. Army Cadet Corps
Check this video out:
http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/Military_academy_brings_attention_to_old_Bourbon_County_campus_136410998.html?ref=998 (http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/Military_academy_brings_attention_to_old_Bourbon_County_campus_136410998.html?ref=998)
That "Colonel" sure looks like a real US Army officer to me. What's the distinctiveness being worn on that US Army type uniform that clearly shows it is just a civilian para military non profit organization's (paid employee ???)/member as the interviewee ??? :-\ (Contrasting it with the Civil Air Patrol's AF type Uniform "distinctiveness").
RM
Here is our ACR 670-1 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgoarmycadets.com%2Fmydocuments%2Facr_670_1.pdf&ei=-OoAT5KoFsLr0QHwu6TAAg&usg=AFQjCNHLQ6crA206XTJbZ1FrJiNexScDtw&sig2=y051HDPl-mHtoAn0fVlhCQ) which outlines the variety of modifications to the U.S. Army Cadet Corps (USAC) (http://www.goarmycadets.com) uniform. As you'll see, there is quite a bit of "distinctiveness" to ensure no confusion in regards to the uniform.
As for rank, there's never an indication that we're anything other than we are...I'm not an Army Colonel. Our people may look, act, talk and walk like the "real deal," but that's more an example of professionalism than anything. Are we mistaken for being active duty at times? Yep, fairly regularly...but that has nothing to do with the various (and clearly placed) uniform modifications, but more to do with professional standards, performance and the carriage of the USAC officer or NCO.
Is a CAP Major or a USAC Colonel "real?" Yes, they are, in their culture. Just as a police Major is a "real" Major in their own culture, they clearly have no authority over an Army Captain. Does that mean that one is less "real" than the other? No. It boils down to knowing, practicing, and being proud of your organization's mission and not taking a position of inferiority to the other organization.
USAC's attitude is that we are "non-paid professionals" and should be as professional at our unique mission of developing youth as our active, guard and reserve colleagues are at their mission of protecting America's interests. Are the missions of the Army and USAC different? Clearly, they are. However, that's not to say that what we do isn't valued and important. Organizationally, we refuse to be "second class" citizens just because of what we do. As a result, we don't use the term "volunteer," as there are way too many folks who have the "I'm a volunteer...what are they gonna do, fire me?" attitude. That just doesn't fly in USAC, plain and simple. Incidentally, the answer is yes...we will - and have - fired "volunteers" if the individual does not maintain the standards expected of the program, or which are a positive reflection of the Army. I'm sure there are plenty who will cry that that's overly harsh and that we take ourselves too serious. Perhaps...but we are what we are. Why pretend otherwise? Why use being a volunteer as an excuse to half-step and unprofessional about our mission?
As a result of that expected level of professionalism, we've been privileged to have met the Army's most senior leaders, with the program extremely well received.
(http://gallery.me.com/ausa/101967/EPP_2186/web.jpg?ver=13183593710001)
As for the interview...for the record, I'm not an employee of USAC. I'm a "non-paid professional." I earn my living as a consultant with a variety of federal agencies dealing with performance management issues. In fact, I'm - at times - the "Grim Reaper" for non-performing employees, heavily involved in having them removed from the taxpayers' payroll. With that said, my primary calling is to give back to Cadetting (April makes 37 years in boots) and continue to build, expand and improve upon USAC. The next step is the opening of Forest Hill Military Academy in August, 2012, as you found online. As you can imagine, these are exciting days for USAC!
We all (CAP, NSCC, USAC) are, as you stated, "...just a civilian para military non profit organization." However, I prefer to drop the word "just" from the statement. Just as with CAP, we are what we are...and we're [darn] good at it. There's no "just" about it.
Comments in boldQuote from: COL Land on January 02, 2012, 12:15:28 AM
Here is our ACR 670-1 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgoarmycadets.com%2Fmydocuments%2Facr_670_1.pdf&ei=-OoAT5KoFsLr0QHwu6TAAg&usg=AFQjCNHLQ6crA206XTJbZ1FrJiNexScDtw&sig2=y051HDPl-mHtoAn0fVlhCQ) which outlines the variety of modifications to the U.S. Army Cadet Corps (USAC) (http://www.goarmycadets.com) uniform. As you'll see, there is quite a bit of "distinctiveness" to ensure no confusion in regards to the uniform.
COMMENT: Well, I'm referring specifically to the uniform combination worn during that interview (the outer wear jacket rank distinctiveness?). I personally could not see any distinctiveness :-\
As for rank, there's never an indication that we're anything other than we are...I'm not an Army Colonel. Our people may look, act, talk and walk like the "real deal," but that's more an example of professionalism than anything. Are we mistaken for being active duty at times? Yep, fairly regularly...but that has nothing to do with the various (and clearly placed) uniform modifications, but more to do with professional standards, performance and the carriage of the USAC officer or NCO.
Is a CAP Major or a USAC Colonel "real?" Yes, they are, in their culture. Just as a police Major is a "real" Major in their own culture, they clearly have no authority over an Army Captain. Does that mean that one is less "real" than the other? No. It boils down to knowing, practicing, and being proud of your organization's mission and not taking a position of inferiority to the other organization.
COMMENT: Well, to each their own, BUT I think many of us (active/retired/reserve) are concerned about non military personnel presenting themselves as military and due to the public's real lack of knowledge, this results in some unearned benefit being bestowed on that group (whether it's CAP, USAC, Young Marine Adults, or Sea Cadet Corps Adults, USCG Aux). I will admit that the TV story does in fact ID you as US Army Cadet Corps a few times as a sub line as the video interview progresses. HOWEVER, there is a VAST difference between being in the military and being a volunteer in a para military organization and I think some tend to forget this and that's what leads to problems for everyone :(
As for the interview...for the record, I'm not an employee of USAC. I'm a "non-paid professional." I earn my living as a consultant with a variety of federal agencies dealing with performance management issues. In fact, I'm - at times - the "Grim Reaper" for non-performing employees, heavily involved in having them removed from the taxpayers' payroll. With that said, my primary calling is to give back to Cadetting (April makes 37 years in boots) and continue to build, expand and improve upon USAC. The next step is the opening of Forest Hill Military Academy in August, 2012, as you found online. As you can imagine, these are exciting days for USAC!
Well that really takes me by surprise, regarding no compensation for your work, because you seem to be the voice of that entire organization and the membership support seems to resolve around you. Hopefully the military school will be a success, since it looks like that town and even the surrounding counties are very supportive of this endeavor
all (CAP, NSCC, USAC) are, as you stated, "...just a civilian para military non profit organization." However, I prefer to drop the word "just" from the statement. Just as with CAP, we are what we are...and we're [darn] good at it. There's no "just" about it.
I somewhat agree with you on this. The youth development para military organizations, at least the community based ones, and others that have additional operational missions (CAP & USCG Aux), are strong community contributors and hopefully have achieved recognition in their communities. However again, volunteers do need to have a health perspective, on how they fit into the organization and what the organization is and IS NOT. When that gets imbalanced you get some crazy things happening that becomes detrimental to the organization as well as the individual member -- I'm sure you know what I mean
I would sincerely hope that no one thinks that I'm focusing just on your para military organization. HOWEVER, I do still wonder when compared with others (CAP, Young Marines, Sea Cadets) why USAC does not list contact points for their local community programs on their website. Surely, if there's a small number of local units nationwide, I think most of us would realize the challenge of going it alone without any major sponsors to help you, especially the US Army formally. Your summer camp programs do seem to draw quite a few teenagers interested in the military and law enforcement, and for that your organization should be saluted.
RM
Quote from: COL Land on January 02, 2012, 12:15:28 AM
(http://gallery.me.com/ausa/101967/EPP_2186/web.jpg?ver=13183593710001)
Is that General Odierno in the middle/back?
Quote from: titanII on January 02, 2012, 01:18:00 AMIs that General Odierno in the middle/back?
Yes, along with Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III.
COMMENT: Well, I'm referring specifically to the uniform combination worn during that interview (the outer wear jacket rank distinctiveness?). I personally could not see any distinctiveness :-\
Patch, right shoulder.
...results in some unearned benefit being bestowed on that group (whether it's CAP, USAC, Young Marine Adults, or Sea Cadet Corps Adults, USCG Aux).
The only "unearned benefit" bestowed upon folks involved with USAC, CAP, NSCC, etc. is the privilege of wearing the uniform that they pay for; the self-satisfaction of serving others; and an occasional salute from someone who may or may not know what the various modifications mean. Let's keep this all in perspective...no one is getting a new car, earning a million dollars or being made Grand Marshal of a parade (oops...that takes us to the original topic of this tread), as a result of service in a uniformed organization.
Well that really takes me by surprise, regarding no compensation for your work, because you seem to be the voice of that entire organization and the membership support seems to resolve around you. Hopefully the military school will be a success, since it looks like that town and even the surrounding counties are very supportive of this endeavor
Yes, I'm the official "voice," but that doesn't discount the many, many others who serve as officers, NCOs and civilians with USAC. We just don't have a lot of loose cannons spewing inaccurate information hither and yon. That's intentional. As for the school, it will succeed...no question about it. We do not set out to fail.
I would sincerely hope that no one thinks that I'm focusing just on your para military organization. HOWEVER, I do still wonder when compared with others (CAP, Young Marines, Sea Cadets) why USAC does not list contact points for their local community programs on their website.
That question has been asked and answered. We choose not to. It's as simple as that.
Quote from: COL Land on January 02, 2012, 02:00:59 AM
Quote from: titanII on January 02, 2012, 01:18:00 AMIs that General Odierno in the middle/back?
Yes, along with Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III.
Cool! :D
Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2011, 06:41:07 AM
Quote from: COL Land on December 30, 2011, 05:43:51 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2011, 10:25:48 PM
We had a guy in our wing who claimed to be a medically retired Army Col. Former commander of a major Army Recruiting unit. He bamboozeld TNWG into giving him LT Col and used that as his basis for rank when he transfered here to NVWG.
His name was Barry something. We dealt with him too and then outed him to proper authority. Later saw him as a BG in the "Army Volunteer Reserve." Oddly, years later, he tried again submit a request to form a USAC unit...ugh.
That's the bozo! Barry Keller. With the U.S. National Defense Corps......and I just learned...the 2012 commander of the Las Vegas USCGAUX flotilla!
RiverAux.....you need to ping your leadership about this guy!
done, though someone else may have beat me to it as that Las Vegas flotilla site is now down. He would have had to go through the OS background check at one time, so would have had some checking on his military service claims.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
COMMENT: Well, I'm referring specifically to the uniform combination worn during that interview (the outer wear jacket rank distinctiveness?). I personally could not see any distinctiveness.
RM, if it doesn't look like the bloody Salvation Army with red epaulettes to you, it's not "distinctive."
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Well, to each their own, BUT I think many of us (active/retired/reserve) are concerned about non military personnel presenting themselves as military and due to the public's real lack of knowledge, this results in some unearned benefit being bestowed on that group (whether it's CAP, USAC, Young Marine Adults, or Sea Cadet Corps Adults, USCG Aux).
What is your obsession with this very rarely existing situation? There is more to being in CAP or any of these other groups than your little bailiwick of Public Affairs, and your near-assumption that the public is too stupid/blind/uninformed to know the difference between a CAP/NSCC/USAC/CGAUX officer and an officer in the five Armed Services. Can you document, with hard data, an
on-going, persistent model of behaviour on the part of a civilian military auxiliary person from any of these organisations posing as "the real thing" to get that "unearned benefit?"
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
HOWEVER, there is a VAST difference between being in the military and being a volunteer in a para military organization
When in doubt, restate the patently obvious.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
and I think some tend to forget this and that's what leads to problems for everyone
You mean the very, very few and far between incidents of a CAP officer trying to dress down a military member? For
that you'd have us out of the USAF uniform? Great Bog in Devon. ::)
Please see comments in boldQuote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2012, 09:38:43 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
COMMENT: Well, I'm referring specifically to the uniform combination worn during that interview (the outer wear jacket rank distinctiveness?). I personally could not see any distinctiveness.
RM, if it doesn't look like the bloody Salvation Army with red epaulettes to you, it's not "distinctive."
The explanation was given as to the "distinctiveness", the camera angle did not show this distinctiveness (of the patch on the right shoulder) in the interview. IF it were a CAP member with the blue jacket the grey epaulets with the rank would be fairly distinctive in that interview setting.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Well, to each their own, BUT I think many of us (active/retired/reserve) are concerned about non military personnel presenting themselves as military and due to the public's real lack of knowledge, this results in some unearned benefit being bestowed on that group (whether it's CAP, USAC, Young Marine Adults, or Sea Cadet Corps Adults, USCG Aux).
What is your obsession with this very rarely existing situation? There is more to being in CAP or any of these other groups than your little bailiwick of Public Affairs, and your near-assumption that the public is too stupid/blind/uninformed to know the difference between a CAP/NSCC/USAC/CGAUX officer and an officer in the five Armed Services. Can you document, with hard data, an on-going, persistent model of behaviour on the part of a civilian military auxiliary person from any of these organisations posing as "the real thing" to get that "unearned benefit?"
We all are entitled to our opinions. It alarms me that some members are so concerned about being able to wear the AF style uniforms and if that was taken away they would leave the organization, especially on the Emergency Services side, because functionality of uniform & strong organization identification are important :(. Field uniform wise I would like to see a very distinctive uniform in use that leaves no doubt that it is Civil Air Patrol providing that support -- it's just good public relations to achieve this. We don't have that yet. Members are not always the culprits either in this "mistaken identity" while in AF type uniforms (even BDU's), even at simple stops to just get a quick lunch -- it can put the member in an awkward situation when something free is given. Perhaps the best approach is to accept it and then take the money you saved and donate it to a Veterans support association, such as the "Wounded Warrior Program". Than everyone wins :clap:
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
HOWEVER, there is a VAST difference between being in the military and being a volunteer in a para military organization
When in doubt, restate the patently obvious.
Some CAP "Officers" seem to get a holy than thou attitude when dealing with the military and even some civilians. That so called fantasy attitude sometimes get seen (e.g. security forces entry gate guards) and than when they get jacked up they are all upset. They cause their own problems. I never have a problem as a military officer retiree (and I was an NCO for quite a few years also), because I treat all military personnel with respect (especially the gate security guards -- cause that's a difficult job). Also regulation wise it is quite clear as to CAP's status -- rank does not get any privileges. CAP members are just "PFC"'s. Also live with this fact --- most people in the AF could care less about CAP, and it isn't worth the effort to educate everyone, only the appropriate 'decision makers' need to know about us, especially at the local level
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
and I think some tend to forget this and that's what leads to problems for everyone
You mean the very, very few and far between incidents of a CAP officer trying to dress down a military member? For that you'd have us out of the USAF uniform? Great Bog in Devon. ::)
I think there's a lot more that goes on than gets reported to anyone regarding improper behavior in a CAP uniform, which is more likely to occur with any of the AF styles. It just doesn't mean interacting with the military but the interaction that also goes on with the civilian population (that's why there's limits as to when/how long a CAP uniform can be worn and anyone observed outside those parameters needs to be looked at very carefully). Personally I joined CAP to participate in Emergency Services/Radio Communications, and also agreed to do some supporting roles e.g Public Affairs (which I've been very fortunate to get the best TV media coverage in the wing (likely the only coverage)) Wear of AF type uniforms just was not a reason for why I joined CAP. I think there needs to be a delicate balance of "distinctiveness" in the wear of AF type uniform by adult members and very good supervision of them when they wear these uniforms.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
I think there's a lot more that goes on than gets reported to anyone regarding improper behavior in a CAP uniform,
Few on this board are surprised.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
which is more likely to occur with any of the AF styles.
Cite, please.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
Please see comments in bold
Quote from: CyBorg on January 02, 2012, 09:38:43 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
COMMENT: Well, I'm referring specifically to the uniform combination worn during that interview (the outer wear jacket rank distinctiveness?). I personally could not see any distinctiveness.
RM, if it doesn't look like the bloody Salvation Army with red epaulettes to you, it's not "distinctive."
The explanation was given as to the "distinctiveness", the camera angle did not show this distinctiveness (of the patch on the right shoulder) in the interview. IF it were a CAP member with the blue jacket the grey epaulets with the rank would be fairly distinctive in that interview setting.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Well, to each their own, BUT I think many of us (active/retired/reserve) are concerned about non military personnel presenting themselves as military and due to the public's real lack of knowledge, this results in some unearned benefit being bestowed on that group (whether it's CAP, USAC, Young Marine Adults, or Sea Cadet Corps Adults, USCG Aux).
What is your obsession with this very rarely existing situation? There is more to being in CAP or any of these other groups than your little bailiwick of Public Affairs, and your near-assumption that the public is too stupid/blind/uninformed to know the difference between a CAP/NSCC/USAC/CGAUX officer and an officer in the five Armed Services. Can you document, with hard data, an on-going, persistent model of behaviour on the part of a civilian military auxiliary person from any of these organisations posing as "the real thing" to get that "unearned benefit?"
We all are entitled to our opinions. It alarms me that some members are so concerned about being able to wear the AF style uniforms and if that was taken away they would leave the organization, especially on the Emergency Services side, because functionality of uniform & strong organization identification are important :(. Field uniform wise I would like to see a very distinctive uniform in use that leaves no doubt that it is Civil Air Patrol providing that support -- it's just good public relations to achieve this. We don't have that yet. Members are not always the culprits either in this "mistaken identity" while in AF type uniforms (even BDU's), even at simple stops to just get a quick lunch -- it can put the member in an awkward situation when something free is given. Perhaps the best approach is to accept it and then take the money you saved and donate it to a Veterans support association, such as the "Wounded Warrior Program". Than everyone wins :clap:
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
HOWEVER, there is a VAST difference between being in the military and being a volunteer in a para military organization
When in doubt, restate the patently obvious.
Some CAP "Officers" seem to get a holy than thou attitude when dealing with the military and even some civilians. That so called fantasy attitude sometimes get seen (e.g. security forces entry gate guards) and than when they get jacked up they are all upset. They cause their own problems. I never have a problem as a military officer retiree (and I was an NCO for quite a few years also), because I treat all military personnel with respect (especially the gate security guards -- cause that's a difficult job). Also regulation wise it is quite clear as to CAP's status -- rank does not get any privileges. CAP members are just "PFC"'s. Also live with this fact --- most people in the AF could care less about CAP, and it isn't worth the effort to educate everyone, only the appropriate 'decision makers' need to know about us, especially at the local level
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
and I think some tend to forget this and that's what leads to problems for everyone
You mean the very, very few and far between incidents of a CAP officer trying to dress down a military member? For that you'd have us out of the USAF uniform? Great Bog in Devon. ::)
I think there's a lot more that goes on than gets reported to anyone regarding improper behavior in a CAP uniform, which is more likely to occur with any of the AF styles. It just doesn't mean interacting with the military but the interaction that also goes on with the civilian population (that's why there's limits as to when/how long a CAP uniform can be worn and anyone observed outside those parameters needs to be looked at very carefully).
Personally I joined CAP to participate in Emergency Services/Radio Communications, and also agreed to do some supporting roles e.g Public Affairs (which I've been very fortunate to get the best TV media coverage in the wing (likely the only coverage)) Wear of AF type uniforms just was not a reason for why I joined CAP. I think there needs to be a delicate balance of "distinctiveness" in the wear of AF type uniform by adult members and very good supervision of them when they wear these uniforms.
RM
You are absolutely ridiculous. I am happy you did not list your name online, if I met you and we didn't talk about uniforms, I might think you are a decent CAP member. If someone is too illiterate to read a service tape/does not read english, than that falls on them. There are people out there that I have met who thought a bunch of ANG guys were Sailors, and I have met someone when my squadron went to DC who thought we were part of the Navy too. Does that mean the USAF should make all of their uniforms say "AIR FORCE AIR FORCE AIR FORCE" across the chest, color the uniform red and gray, and put safety vest over it? Back when the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard all wore the same uniform, the BDU's, you would actually have to read the service tape to figure out who was with what. Unlike how it takes two to fight, it only takes one person to be confused.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
We all are entitled to our opinions. It alarms me that some members are so concerned about being able to wear the AF style uniforms and if that was taken away they would leave the organization, especially on the Emergency Services side, because functionality of uniform & strong organization identification are important :(. Field uniform wise I would like to see a very distinctive uniform in use that leaves no doubt that it is Civil Air Patrol providing that support -- it's just good public relations to achieve this. We don't have that yet.
1. You seem to think that the raison d'etre for CAP is ES, ES, ES. It is not.
2. The fact that many CAP members are PROUD of our connection with the AF and the uniform does not dilute who CAP is. Many of us would be very sorry if that were lost.
3. All that needs to be done to observe a "distinctive field uniform," whether BDU or BBDU, is to read the "CIVIL AIR PATROL" nametape.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Some CAP "Officers" seem to get a holy than thou attitude when dealing with the military and even some civilians. That so called fantasy attitude sometimes get seen (e.g. security forces entry gate guards) and than when they get jacked up they are all upset. They cause their own problems.
We are OFFICERS - CAP OFFICERS - whether you like it or not. If you don't, put in for a change in the regulations through your chain of command.
I have never observed the kind of "holier than thou" behaviour you keep insisting exists in this organisation. Believe me, I would see it if it existed as my unit meets on an ANG base. I have not seen one direct, factual citation from you on this, other than apocryphal, broad-brush accounts. We have a very good relationship with the SF and gate guards. Most of them know us by sight. I usually just show my ID and whoever's on says "OK Captain, have a good evening," and I return it. If I get a salute, I return it. If I don't, big deal.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Also regulation wise it is quite clear as to CAP's status -- rank does not get any privileges. CAP members are just "PFC"'s.
We are not PFC's. PFC is a military rank of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps. We are civilian volunteers with a military rank structure. I have not seen in almost 19 years in CAP
anyone trying to pull any "privilege of rank." In fact, once at an airshow I was working, I called a Navy Lieutenant "sir" (I was a CAP 2nd Lieutenant) and his response was to take the huff and say "Don't call me 'sir!' You guys are not really military!" OK, so that's what you get for observing customs and courtesies. Go fly it up your afterburner then, Tom Cruise.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Also live with this fact --- most people in the AF could care less about CAP, and it isn't worth the effort to educate everyone, only the appropriate 'decision makers' need to know about us, especially at the local level
Believe me, I know about the Air Force's attitude toward us, and the only one saying it isn't worth the effort to educate them is YOU.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
I think there's a lot more that goes on than gets reported to anyone regarding improper behavior in a CAP uniform, which is more likely to occur with any of the AF styles. It just doesn't mean interacting with the military but the interaction that also goes on with the civilian population (that's why there's limits as to when/how long a CAP uniform can be worn and anyone observed outside those parameters needs to be looked at very carefully).
You sound like a conspiracy theorist with that..."there are things going on that I know about, but no-one else in CAP does." Very, very, very rarely do I even get
asked about my uniform of ANY kind when in public. In fact, about 15 years ago a young woman in a department store mistook me for a store security guard, and I was in CAP blues!
What you are suggesting about "parameters" and "how long a CAP uniform can be worn" would require everyone to wear a monitor of some sort. I think MOST CAP members know what the rules are, and what the difference is between stopping at McDonalds on the way home to grab a burger and stopping at an expensive restaurant where you're going to be for a couple of hours.
A few years ago I was on a SAREX and we went to lunch at a Denny's. Most of us were in sage green flight suits, and others of us were in BDU's. By your reasoning, we should have stripped out of those, put on civilian clothes and then switched back when we left to go back to mission base. Sorry mate, there aren't enough phone booths left to constantly be doing that kind of Clark Kent thing.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Personally I joined CAP to participate in Emergency Services/Radio Communications, and also agreed to do some supporting roles e.g Public Affairs (which I've been very fortunate to get the best TV media coverage in the wing (likely the only coverage))
And again, not everyone is an ES junkie. If you're that good of a PAO, good for you. My unit has a very good PAO, and we've never been on TV, though she has certainly got us a fair bit of print media coverage (and psst: she wears the AF uniform).
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2012, 01:14:43 AM
Wear of AF type uniforms just was not a reason for why I joined CAP. I think there needs to be a delicate balance of "distinctiveness" in the wear of AF type uniform by adult members and very good supervision of them when they wear these uniforms.
It wasn't mine either. I was in the Air National Guard. I had to take a medical separation. CAP is my way of continuing my service to the Air Force. I have done it as a Safety Officer, Administrative Officer, Testing Officer, Drug Demand Reduction Officer, Deputy Squadron CC, Mission Scanner, Observer, Mission Base Comms, and often by just showing up and doing what is asked of me. Also, keeping CAP a safe place for our young people in a very unsafe world is a big motivator for me.
The kind of "distinctiveness" you seek goes even beyond the Air Force's nebulous and unenforceable "low light/at a distance."
I have served in Composite, Senior and Cadet units. With the exception of the Senior
flying club squadron, where no-one really gave a monkey's about wearing uniforms, the units I have been in have been pretty good about self-policing in uniform wear. I haven't seen anything beyond "check your gig line," "check your unbuttoned pocket," etc. I was once told by my second CC when I was a second lieutenant that my hair needed to be trimmed (and she told me in private). I got it trimmed, and it was never brought up again. This same commander also banned another member from wearing anything but the Smurf suit because his uniform was often so unkempt.
If that isn't proper supervision and self-policing, I don't know what is.
Annnnd once again, we've taken a thread _not_ about uniforms and turned it into a uniform thread.
Nice going.
Quote from: NIN on January 03, 2012, 12:52:27 AM
Annnnd once again, we've taken a thread _not_ about uniforms and turned it into a uniform thread.
Nice going.
Um...this is literally >all< about uniforms, at least in terms of the fakery...
I did not join CAP to wear the Uniform, although I recognize that it is a great privilege. RM seems to find the idea that we might be confused as something we are not as just too awful to bear. Sure, its occasionally embarrassing to have someone at the gas station walk up to me and "thank me for my service" but I just tell them thanks and let them know that I will pass their thanks on to the people who really deserve it. I actually joined CAP because my son was a cadet. Thinking I could just hang out in the parking lot and work on my laptop did not work out well. One day, a Senior Member knocked on my window, and when I rolled it down, I think they chloroformed me, because when I woke up I was being fingerprinted and fitted for BDU's......At least I had both my kidneys and did not wake up in a bathtub of ice.......
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on January 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AMSure, its occasionally embarrassing to have someone at the gas station walk up to me and "thank me for my service" but I just tell them thanks and let them know that I will pass their thanks on to the people who really deserve it.
It's also more than a little insulting to everyone involved that...
...CAP service is somehow 2nd class (it isn't).
...that the person doing the thanking can't read English and doesn't know what CAP is (sometimes they actually do).
...that the military somehow looks down on CAP service collectively with any angst or ill-will (they don't in my circles) - if anything,
when they find out we are there for free, as volunteers, their respect increases.
...that somehow all other services, organizations, and agencies are free from "klunkers" who impact the image and perception
of those around them.
I would not belong to any organization that asked as much as CAP does, yet about which I seemed to have so much disdain.
What's the point of that?
"We are not PFC's. PFC is a military rank of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps. We are civilian volunteers with a military rank structure."
PFC= Private [Filter Subversion] Civilian
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2012, 12:59:10 AM
Quote from: NIN on January 03, 2012, 12:52:27 AM
Annnnd once again, we've taken a thread _not_ about uniforms and turned it into a uniform thread.
Nice going.
Um...this is literally >all< about uniforms, at least in terms of the fakery...
In this instance no. The faker in question, while yes he did wear a uniform to facilitate part of his fakery, he also did so in written documents and claims he made, etc.
To say his fakery was all about uniforms is like saying "to spot the child predator, all you gotta do is look for the 'FREE CANDY' van."
Quote from: ol'fido on January 03, 2012, 01:42:19 AM
"We are not PFC's. PFC is a military rank of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps. We are civilian volunteers with a military rank structure."
PFC= Private [Filter Subversion] Civilian
Marine PFC: Pointless [expletive] Chevron
"Private Soldier" is a medieval term for soldiers who are hired, conscripted, or acquired through feudal rights. What is a "Private Civilian"?
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on January 03, 2012, 02:00:39 AM
"Private Soldier" is a medieval term for soldiers who are hired, conscripted, or acquired through feudal rights. What is a "Private Civilian"?
Major Lord
What PFC(E-3)s want to be at the end of their enlistments. It's military slang. Roll with it.
Quote from: Major Lord on January 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AM
Sure, its occasionally embarrassing to have someone at the gas station walk up to me and "thank me for my service" but I just tell them thanks and let them know that I will pass their thanks on to the people who really deserve it.
I have also run into the occasionally embarrassing moment. Most recently, I was working at an Air Show and a passing little girl saw me in BDUs and loudly exclaimed "Mommy! Look! An Army Man!" I politely smiled, slightly embarrassed, and continued to my post.
IMO, there is no need to be embarrassed or feel awkward about it. We may not be military, but we do serve our country proudly. People may not know us as CAP, just see the USAF part of our name plates, but we are an auxiliary of the Air Force, and should be proud of that fact. Does that make us a faker or non deserving of someone randomly thanking us for our service? I say No.
I did not join CAP to wear the AF style uniform either. I joined to help serve the community I live in. I will wear whatever uniform we are authorized to wear and will wear it proudly. As an Air Force retiree, the AF style uniform appears different enough from the actual AF uniform that it is easy to tell the difference. I have never seen any CAP member trying to pass themselves off as an AF member. This includes all the time I was active duty or in the years since I retired.
If you are on CT very long, you will get used to Radioman making unsubstantiated claims of CAP members wearing AF style unis to a)be a wannabe and live out some sort of Walter Mitty fantasy b)get salutes they don't deserve c)get some unspecified "benefits" from wearing the uniform.
NIN: some of us are really relieved that you have shared that burden with us. I am sure that the sleep which you have gained has more than paid for your discomfort all those years.
Wink/wink.
Great post.
Quote from: NIN on January 03, 2012, 04:40:23 AMMy deputy and I were standing outside the old clothing sales store at Selfridge ANGB, wearing blues and the "poplin" jacket, waiting for our cadets to finish up when two ANG airmen exited the store. Both airmen saluted and said "good morning, sir."
Thanks. Now maybe I can sleep better at night.
Don't worry eh, we thought you were Canadiens! ;)
A few weeks ago I was at Joint Base MDL for demob with numerous soldiers from my unit. While waiting for the bus two CAP cadets walked past us and headed to Clothing and Sales. The cadets saw me, saluted and continued on their way. One of my soldiers (E-4 SPC) then saluted the cadets. They returned it and afterwards when he made it over to where I was I asked him why he saluted the cadets. His response: " I have no idea what rank wears a diamond but it was shiny so I just saluted" Made me laugh
Quote from: JK657 on January 03, 2012, 06:46:04 AM
A few weeks ago I was at Joint Base MDL for demob with numerous soldiers from my unit. While waiting for the bus two CAP cadets walked past us and headed to Clothing and Sales. The cadets saw me, saluted and continued on their way. One of my soldiers (E-4 SPC) then saluted the cadets. They returned it and afterwards when he made it over to where I was I asked him why he saluted the cadets. His response: " I have no idea what rank wears a diamond but it was shiny so I just saluted" Made me laugh
He just followed the first thing you learn at Basic Training. "When in doubt, whip it out!" aka If you don't know, salute! ;)
Quote from: Major Lord on January 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AMne day, a Senior Member knocked on my window, and when I rolled it down, I think they chloroformed me, because when I woke up I was being fingerprinted and fitted for BDU's.....
Hah! >:D Another one.. That parking lot trap works :)
Quote from: NIN on January 03, 2012, 04:40:23 AMThanks. Now maybe I can sleep better at night.
... Nah, you'll need to make an appearance in person at Westover and confess live.. where the PAO can write i.. oh, wait. :o
NIN:
Sir, your "mea culpa" was bloody hilarious, but right on target!
But to be fair, it's not just RM...there is a small-but-vocal subset of CAP members that want to see us out of the USAF uniform entirely. Most, but not all, tend to be the "ES-is-life" types. I wonder why the correlation there?
Back when I was a silverbar looie, I passed a Canadian Captain at an airshow. I was in BDU's and he was in his flight suit. I recognised his insignia, saluted and greeted him "good afternoon, Sir." He returned the salute, "good afternoon, Lef-tenant." A bit later we got to chatting and we were on a first name basis. He asked me what CAP was and I gave him the Reader's Digest condensed version.
By RM's "logic" I should have told this real Officer with a real Commission from Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and her other Realms and Territories that I was not really a Lef-tenant, that he should not have addressed me as such, I wasn't a real officer and I was truly sorry for being a bad international ambassador and casting such a bad light on the U.S. Air Force.
At the same airshow an AFRES first looie came up and saluted. I did make a partial disclaimer to him, saying "you don't have to salute me." He said "I know, but I just wanted to render respect to a fellow officer (his words, not mine)."
Perhaps I should have prostrated myself on the tarmac before this young REAL lieutenant and did the "I'm not worthy" bit... :P
Saw a guy outside Walmart on the way home from work(Needed a case for my glasses.) He was collecting money for Wounded Warriors.org. When I saw him, my instincts just said "FAKER!!!!". I thought this for the following reasons:
1) He was wearing the outdated dress greens. Now he could be retired or discharged. He was wearing it properly with shoes shined and pressed. But he also...
2)Was not wearing a cover standing just outside the door of Wally World.
3)He was wearing Infantry branch insignia but his unit patch was the 4th PsyOp Group and a SF combat patch. He also had an Infantry cord, CIB, and AAS wings. About 7 rows of fruit salad and 4 unit citations. There were no blue discs under the branch and US insignia on the lapels. I was straight infantry so I don't know if Infantry guys in non-infantry assignments wear the discs.
4)He was wearing a SAPPER tab, but no SF tab. I guess he could have been attached or assigned to a SF group in a non-SF role without being tab qualified.
5)He was wearing a AR Overseas Training Ribbon so he might have been in a number of different branches and MOSs depending on his active and reserve time.
Everything about his uniform could have a logical explanation, but there were enough oddities to raise my "Faker" radar. I didn't talk to him or stop to stare at the uniform. I just did a couple of slow fly-bys
going in and out so I can't say if there was anything wrong with the rack but like I said there were just a couple of little things that stood out. Does Walmart check the bonafides of these guys.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 04, 2012, 12:53:46 AM
Saw a guy outside Walmart on the way home from work(Needed a case for my glasses.) He was collecting money for Wounded Warriors.org. When I saw him, my instincts just said "FAKER!!!!". I thought this for the following reasons:
1) He was wearing the outdated dress greens. Now he could be retired or discharged. He was wearing it properly with shoes shined and pressed. But he also...
2)Was not wearing a cover standing just outside the door of Wally World.
3)He was wearing Infantry branch insignia but his unit patch was the 4th PsyOp Group and a SF combat patch. He also had an Infantry cord, CIB, and AAS wings. About 7 rows of fruit salad and 4 unit citations. There were no blue discs under the branch and US insignia on the lapels. I was straight infantry so I don't know if Infantry guys in non-infantry assignments wear the discs.
4)He was wearing a SAPPER tab, but no SF tab. I guess he could have been attached or assigned to a SF group in a non-SF role without being tab qualified.
5)He was wearing a AR Overseas Training Ribbon so he might have been in a number of different branches and MOSs depending on his active and reserve time.
Everything about his uniform could have a logical explanation, but there were enough oddities to raise my "Faker" radar. I didn't talk to him or stop to stare at the uniform. I just did a couple of slow fly-bys
going in and out so I can't say if there was anything wrong with the rack but like I said there were just a couple of little things that stood out. Does Walmart check the bonafides of these guys.
No, Walmart does not check out the folks who solicit outside their doors.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 04, 2012, 12:53:46 AM
3)I was straight infantry so I don't know if Infantry guys in non-infantry assignments wear the discs.
I'm not sure if this touches on what you're getting at, but my dad was in the 4th Armored Division, Erlangen, West Germany.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/4th_US_Armored_Division_SSI.svg/200px-4th_US_Armored_Division_SSI.svg.png)
He wore Infantry cross-muskets and "U.S." enlisted collar brass with blue discs and a blue shoulder cord on his Ike jacket. He never wore the Armor insignia.
(http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/images/branch/ArmorBC.gif)
I asked him how he could be Infantry in an Armored division and he said that his Company, Battalion, I don't remember which (and I don't know a whole lot about how the Army does unit designation), was "Armored Infantry." I know he spent a lot of time in an M-59 APC.
An Armored Division does have Infantry Battalions just like an Infantry Division will have Armor Battalions.
It's just that in an Infantry Division there will be more Infantry Battalions then Armor Battalions and the reverse in an Armored Division.
(This is a much simplified explanation.)
FyI: It is entirely possible for there to be folks from all 16 or 17 branches of the Army in a single Infantry or Armored Division or any other large formation. They would still all wear the Division patch and their branch insignia.
I know that if you are 11 mos enlisted, you wear the disk.
SAPPER is an engineer program and not restricted to SF.
Unit citations are from unit history, you wear what you wore when you get out.
I know what Sapper training is. I know how unit citations work. My question was if you are branched as infantry but not currently in an infantry slot do you wear the disks. Example: 11B working in division IG section. Does anybody know what branch insignia PSYOPs wears...MI..SF...??.
Then the point of #4 was? ???
the trick to the average SF faker with a combat patch is the tab.... do they have the Special Forces Tab on the combat patch side? if so they are a faker (the actual SF tab is a qualification not part to the SF patch....that is just the sword and bolts with the airborne tab attached)
mk
Gotta love the ones who put the SF tab under the Airborne tab. Another fun one I saw once was a 10th Mountain Division Patch with no mountain tab. I did see one really old timer once with the 82nd Infantry for a combat patch.....From WWI....
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 04, 2012, 04:07:06 AM
Then the point of #4 was? ???
The point was that he was not wearing an SF tab even though he had the SF combat patch so he wasn't tab qualified. The Sapper tab was incidental to my point.
Quote from: GoneAway on January 04, 2012, 02:03:32 PM
Gotta love the ones who put the SF tab under the Airborne tab. Another fun one I saw once was a 10th Mountain Division Patch with no mountain tab. I did see one really old timer once with the 82nd Infantry for a combat patch.....From WWI....
The 82nd was in France during WW I, But wasn't an Airborne unit until 1940 or 41. depending on how long ago you saw this gent, and his age, he might have been legit.
Quote from: MSG Mac on January 04, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
Quote from: GoneAway on January 04, 2012, 02:03:32 PM
Gotta love the ones who put the SF tab under the Airborne tab. Another fun one I saw once was a 10th Mountain Division Patch with no mountain tab. I did see one really old timer once with the 82nd Infantry for a combat patch.....From WWI....
The 82nd was in France during WW I, But wasn't an Airborne unit until 1940 or 41. depending on how long ago you saw this gent, and his age, he might have been legit.
The 82nd division was Sgt. York's unit.
Quote from: sarmed1 on January 04, 2012, 02:01:08 PM
the trick to the average SF faker with a combat patch is the tab.... do they have the Special Forces Tab on the combat patch side? if so they are a faker (the actual SF tab is a qualification not part to the SF patch....that is just the sword and bolts with the airborne tab attached)
mk
Unless they got it
really early. Some early recipients got them without an Airborne tab. But the individual would have to be over 70 years old to have SF without Airborne tab.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 04, 2012, 04:03:01 AM
I know what Sapper training is. I know how unit citations work. My question was if you are branched as infantry but not currently in an infantry slot do you wear the disks. Example: 11B working in division IG section. Does anybody know what branch insignia PSYOPs wears...MI..SF...??.
Yes, you wear the discs while still holding the MOS. Once in training for a new MOS, you usually lose the discs (this is usually the new school that directs this). The discs may not be worn again unless actively slotted in an 11 series position.
PSYOPS likely wears MI. Would have to know the specific MOS to say yea or nay. PSYOPS works with SF but it is not an SF branch. (There is an Intel Sergeant MOS in SF, but the guy would wear SF insignia, not MI, it's an 18 series MOS.)
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 04, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
Yes, you wear the discs while still holding the MOS. Once in training for a new MOS, you usually lose the discs (this is usually the new school that directs this). The discs may not be worn again unless actively slotted in an 11 series position.
Again using my dad as an example...
He wore the blue discs as a member of the 4th Armored, who Hitler's propagandists called "Roosevelt's Butchers" after they squashed two SS-Panzergrenadier units.
However, he was not in a combat MOS. His main job was as radio repairman, and he was one of the earliest Specialist 4's, which he said at that time was supposed to be like an enlisted version of a warrant officer.
He said, "the Army always said they were going to send me to school for it but never did."
If he'd actually
gone to the school, I wonder if he'd have lost the discs.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 04, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
Yes, you wear the discs while still holding the MOS. Once in training for a new MOS, you usually lose the discs (this is usually the new school that directs this). The discs may not be worn again unless actively slotted in an 11 series position.
IIRC this is true. Discs and the infantry cord are only worn when it's the soldiers Primary MOS, unless they have been awarded the Combat Infantyman's badge or the Expert Infantryman's badge...they the cord and the disks become permanent.
You know.....not to knock the army or anything.....but people complain about useless bling on CAP uniforms!
Trying to read and understand the Army regs on these things is next to impossible!
Looks pretty simplicated to me:
(http://livingthearmylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dress_classa_lo-e1280423144188.jpg)
Really?
Infantry cords+branch insiniga+regimental number+infantry disk+battalion crest+divisional patch+combat patch+overseas stripes+longevity stripes+unit citations (all of them even those earned in WWI)+combat unit patch.
They are just as full of bling as CAP's uniforms.....more so in some ways.
Well, they do have about 172 more years of history and tradition to base such bling on. 8)
They also have loads and loads of qualification badges for various small arms (my dad had Marksman with "Rifle" bar...good old M-1), aviators, aircrew (actually, I like the Army Aviator wings better than the AF! :o), etc....I wonder how much time Drill Sergeants take to teach new Soldiers about all this blingage and what it means.
I'll bet the average troop goes through a lot of Brasso.
Quote from: CyBorg on January 05, 2012, 01:30:12 AM
I wonder how much time Drill Sergeants take to teach new Soldiers about all this blingage and what it means.
Not as much time as you'd think. Most of your average soldiers don't know [fecal matter] from shinola when it comes to the specifics of another MOS's blingage.
I could not tell you the requirements for the EIB, for example, but it still lives in approximately the same general spot as my aircraft crewman badge. As for blue disks, well, that and the blue cord, not sure. If I saw a guy wearing same at the Pentagon, I'd be like "Uh, Infantry." and grunt at him. He'd get it.
Likewise, an 11Bang-bang probably doesn't know that all of the 15-series MOS get aircraft crewman badges out of AIT.
Quote
I'll bet the average troop goes through a lot of Brasso.
That, sir, is a fact. And Kiwi.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 04, 2012, 10:21:25 PM
Really?
Infantry cords+branch insiniga+regimental number+infantry disk+battalion crest+divisional patch+combat patch+overseas stripes+longevity stripes+unit citations (all of them even those earned in WWI)+combat unit patch.
They are just as full of bling as CAP's uniforms.....more so in some ways.
The Army is way, way, way into blingage. Hell, I have TWO insignia boxes for all my Army crap, and I was 10 years enlisted, and only 5 in the Army cadets. Only had 1 for CAP, and that was 28 years worth of junk.
Major big differences between Army & AF uniforms (apart from things like different ribbons or badges)
SSI (both CA and FWTS) on the sleeves (Greens) or the metal insignia on the pocket (blues, not a fan).
DUIs on the epaulets. Combat leader tabs if warranted
Regimental crest
branch insignia in addition to any US insignia
branch-specific braid (officers, on both the cap and sleeve)
hash marks
overseas bars (IIRC, those are going away with the blues, but I could be wrong)
trouser braid
Marksmanship badges
Beaucoup qual badges (but then, the AF has occupational badges, too)
Thats just off the top of my head.
Quote
I'll bet the average troop goes through a lot of Brasso.
That, sir, is a fact. And Kiwi.
[/quote]
No kiwi as shoes issued in BCT are corfams and no Brasso due to STA-BRITE badges
Please allow me to wax poetic about how much tougher things were in the "Old Army"
:)
<mutter>corframs as initial issue. What is the world coming to? &#*% kids these days...</mutter>
Quote from: NIN on January 05, 2012, 11:19:44 AM
Please allow me to wax poetic about how much tougher things were in the "Old Army"
:)
<mutter>corframs as initial issue. What is the world coming to? &#*% kids these days...</mutter>
When I was in the police academy we had a young kid (turned 21 just before graduation) who was a Marine reservist. Imagine my surprise and utter disappointment whenever I found out he had no idea how to shine boots. He was issued corframs and rough side boots. Never had to shine boots on the Island.
Just adding on: Army Uniform bling? Maybe, but on the other side, consider the "bling" is a walking resume. You can 'read' the soldier and the soldier's history at a glance. I enlisted in civies, wore the green, got married in the blue, and retired again in the green. Although it has been more than a few years since I last hung up my Greens and Nomex, and the padding in my flight helmet has dried out, I can still 'read' the soldiers.
A few years back CAP allowed former soldiers far more latitude in wearing of Army Combat patches and skill tabs. Again, it was one of those periods when an old soldier could 'read' other old soldiers. However, that has now gone away in favor of the bland.
Do I wear military ribbons badges on the CAP Uniform? No. However, I have to say at the present time I am outside the weight limits and I refuse to disrespect the uniform by trying to fit in one.
However, I will get back into limits, I will get back into a uniform and then I will wear military and CAP ribbons together and proudly.
And I do miss the distinctiveness of the Army Uniform, so even though I may not be able to display much on the uniform, My flight bag (helmet bag) will display the crosed sabers, Regimental Insignia, Combat Unit Patch, Last StateSide Assignment Patch, etc.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on January 05, 2012, 02:54:04 PM
Just adding on: Army Uniform bling? Maybe, but on the other side, consider the "bling" is a walking resume. You can 'read' the soldier and the soldier's history at a glance. I enlisted in civies, wore the green, got married in the blue, and retired again in the green. Although it has been more than a few years since I last hung up my Greens and Nomex, and the padding in my flight helmet has dried out, I can still 'read' the soldiers.
Indeed. And if you're sharp-eyed and astute as it pertains to SSIs, DUIs and unit citations and such, its pretty easy to figure out what specific unit a guy is from. Sadly, I put all that arcane (and mostly useless) information out of my brain and into a cardboard box that was subsequently lost in the myriad of moves I've made. Oh well.
QuoteA few years back CAP allowed former soldiers far more latitude in wearing of Army Combat patches and skill tabs. Again, it was one of those periods when an old soldier could 'read' other old soldiers. However, that has now gone away in favor of the bland.
I wouldn't say its "gone away," but rather "It really shouldn't have been in the first place." Someone called NHQ, got SomeoneAtNHQ™ on the phone to say "Yeah, you can do that!" and *poof* suddenly people are wearing combat patches, ranger tabs, etc. (hey, I'm not against combat patches and ranger tabs on people who have both, but they're not supposed to be worn on the AF uniform except in _extremely_ narrowly defined circumstances, like TACPs assigned to an Infantry unit, and then only while they're assigned to that unit, not after. And nowadays, with ACUs/ABUs and all that, I don't even know how that happens, if at all) Now, unless somehow some CAP member somehow got himself attached in his CAP capacity to an infantry brigade (uh, what?), then I'm still not sure how that would *ever* be authorized to be worn legitimately.
But Army combat patches and skill tabs certainly went against the grain of the mainstream wear of the the AF uniform and the philosophy behind that uniform. (BITD, it annoyed me that I had to wear my aircrew wings over my nameplate, but that changed in the mid-1990s..)
Quote
And I do miss the distinctiveness of the Army Uniform, so even though I may not be able to display much on the uniform, My flight bag (helmet bag) will display the crosed sabers, Regimental Insignia, Combat Unit Patch, Last StateSide Assignment Patch, etc.
Amen. (except for the crossed sabers part, then its "I'm sorry." <GRIN>)
As NIN said.
If you are an USAF type and assigned to/embedded with/working with Army Types...it helps to build team work if the Army can "read" your uniform....so ranger tabs and combat unit patch, et al makes sense.
But when you are back with MA blue.....Joe Airman can't "read" army so it is just useless white noise.
Like I said before......It is not a dig on the army that they do things their way. I just get all worked up when some Army Types get on the USAF....and CAP for the number of ribbons and badges we have on our blues...when they are way worse.
I also point out when some CTer rants about "why do we need so much bling"....that proffessional organisations from the local police department all the way up to the military services use bling to help build unit cohesion, personal pride, and professionalism.....so it ain't all bad.....and if used in moderation and within regulations.....it is all good!
Quote from: stillamarine on January 05, 2012, 01:09:48 PM
Quote from: NIN on January 05, 2012, 11:19:44 AM
Please allow me to wax poetic about how much tougher things were in the "Old Army"
:)
<mutter>corframs as initial issue. What is the world coming to? &#*% kids these days...</mutter>
When I was in the police academy we had a young kid (turned 21 just before graduation) who was a Marine reservist. Imagine my surprise and utter disappointment whenever I found out he had no idea how to shine boots. He was issued corframs and rough side boots. Never had to shine boots on the Island.
Welcome to the 21st Century Marine Corps! ;)
Quote from: PHall on January 06, 2012, 03:13:48 AM
Quote from: stillamarine on January 05, 2012, 01:09:48 PM
Quote from: NIN on January 05, 2012, 11:19:44 AM
Please allow me to wax poetic about how much tougher things were in the "Old Army"
:)
<mutter>corframs as initial issue. What is the world coming to? &#*% kids these days...</mutter>
When I was in the police academy we had a young kid (turned 21 just before graduation) who was a Marine reservist. Imagine my surprise and utter disappointment whenever I found out he had no idea how to shine boots. He was issued corframs and rough side boots. Never had to shine boots on the Island.
Welcome to the 21st Century Marine Corps! ;)
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit... Hopefully they are doing something productive with all that saved time during boot camp. My hope is that they have more time to spend in the pit, or perhaps on island hopping campaigns.
Ask Kieloch. He just got back from his all-expenses tour of the Carolinas courtesy of Uncomplicated Stuff Made Complicated. He was in one of the first series to qualify using optics instead of iron sights. Blasphemy.
Quote from: NIN on January 06, 2012, 02:26:51 PM
He was in one of the first series to qualify using optics instead of iron sights. Blasphemy.
Really!?! Sacrilege and Heresy...bordering on treason.
It's called "progress" gents. Deal with it! >:D
Quote from: PHall on January 07, 2012, 02:10:17 AM
It's called "progress" gents. Deal with it! >:D
Although I feel like recruits should be trained with iron sights... you know, in case the batteries die in their optics, or the glass breaks, or something stupid like that.
Not that my opinion will have
ANY influence on the matter at all ;D
I'm not familiar with the new sights, but it seems to me that good shooting with any hand held weapon comes down to the same three things: Sight alignment, trigger control, and breathing. One someone becomes competent on one sighting system, it doesn't take much to learn a new one.
^^
Agree, but the time to become competent is not when your optics break and people are shooting at you...
Well, for us presbyopic old guys, a red dot sight makes target acquisition a lot easier than trying to focus on that furry looking front sight....I actually found that switching to a red dot sight ( A Docter brand ) took quite a bit of retraining of my mind and muscle memory before it became a matter of unconscious action. I would think it would be easier to train new riflemen with a red dot sight, since the target and reticule stay in the same focal plane. Us old guys also don't have to put on our 1.75 diopter reading glasses to see the front sight and take away our target image, a real positive! After mostly retiring from being a full time hired thug, I sold my Strayer Voight Infinity and bought a Glock 23, and had the slide cut for the low profile Docter sight "melt" job. After unlearning the front sight mode, my speed and accuracy increased pretty dramatically with the red dot sight. How far back should we go for tradition? Make all military recruits learn the "basics" with a single shot muzzle loader? ( I am sure it would make one a lot less likely to "spray and pray"!) Unfortunately, Haji is not the Redcoats, and has AK's instead of Flintlocks. Our military needs the best they can get.
Major Lord
FYI, many red dot sights and some rifles have a back up capacity for iron sights in case your optics get damaged, lose batteries, etc.