I am really hoping this is a yes/no question......
Do the U.S. cutouts go on the Class B shirt collar?
39-1 was little help to me on this
See below.
No, the "U.S." cutouts are only worn on the service coat. And, only senior members wear them.
For SM's without grade, "C.A.P." cutouts may be worn on the blue shirt collar. Cadets only wear "C.A.P." cutouts wearever (sic) they are authorized.
Great! Thanks!
Quote from: Thunder on August 10, 2010, 02:13:18 PM
I am really hoping this is a yes/no question......
Do the U.S. cutouts go on the Class B shirt collar?
39-1 was little help to me on this
What's a class B shirt? I've never seen that anywhere in 39-1.
Be nice...
Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2010, 06:11:34 PM
Be nice...
Pet peeve. I deal with the same kind of thing at work.
Quote from: davidsinn on August 10, 2010, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: Thunder on August 10, 2010, 02:13:18 PM
I am really hoping this is a yes/no question......
Do the U.S. cutouts go on the Class B shirt collar?
39-1 was little help to me on this
What's a class B shirt? I've never seen that anywhere in 39-1.
I believe the word "shirt" was all that was needed.
Honestly, there are lots of CAP parlance that is not in CAPM 39-1
CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM MANUAL In fact, if anyone wants to play "Dr. Correct-all," I know of no documentation, index, manual or regulation in CAP known simply as "39-1."
I think, in the future, people need to take the "there are no uniform classes" to PM, it seems like people here are publically rushing to "jump" someone on that. Not for purposes of correcting, but for one-upsmanship.
I am assuming this this individual is not some "green" cadet, seemingly from MID RIVERS SENIOR SQDN Missouri Wing and, based on that...it seems likley that this is a prior service person simply bringing parlance from their prior service.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2010, 06:30:30 PM
I am assuming this this individual is not some "green" cadet, seemingly from MID RIVERS SENIOR SQDN Missouri Wing and, based on that...it seems likley that this is a prior service person simply bringing parlance from their prior service.
Which still does not make it right.
I asked a question, the person read it and knew what I was talking about. I got my answer. 3 lashes for using improper terminology.
So much for asking a uniform question without drama
Quote from: Thunder on August 10, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
I asked a question, the person read it and knew what I was talking about. I got my answer. 3 lashes for using improper terminology.
So much for asking a uniform question without drama
You're on CAPTalk. Everything is drama.
Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 11, 2010, 12:59:55 AM
Quote from: Thunder on August 10, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
I asked a question, the person read it and knew what I was talking about. I got my answer. 3 lashes for using improper terminology.
So much for asking a uniform question without drama
You're on CAPTalk. Everything is drama.
Isn't that the truth! Can we not all just get along without some one jumping all over some one else for nothing!? This is one of the worst places to go to ask a question. I would rather try to find something myself(like I should) then come here for an easy answer. People on here to to get over themselves.
Just trowin' that out there...
That's why I use the Knowledgebase for anything that has a cut and dry, yes or no answer.
Quote from: arajca on August 10, 2010, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 10, 2010, 06:30:30 PM
I am assuming this this individual is not some "green" cadet, seemingly from MID RIVERS SENIOR SQDN Missouri Wing and, based on that...it seems likley that this is a prior service person simply bringing parlance from their prior service.
Which still does not make it right.
People communicate using the language they know...you cannot fault new people for things if proper training and assimilation is not offered in CAP to correct that.
People using incorrect terminology on this forum should be told so in private.
I would like to clarify that US cutouts are only worn on the lapels of the service dress uniform by SM Officers. SM without grade and SM NCO members wear CAP cutouts on the lapels. Those same senior members also wear CAP cutouts on the blues shirt collars when not wearing the dress jacket. I've seen many a photograph of seniors without grade erroneously wearing the blank gray CAP shoulder boards that Vanguard sells. Those are only for affixing SNCO metal grade chevrons, though I believe that practice has ended and all NCO members now wear standard sleeve insignia.
If no one wears them, then Vanguard needs to stop selling them.
Quote from: kd8gua on August 12, 2010, 05:03:22 AMThose are only for affixing SNCO metal grade chevrons, though I believe that practice has ended and all NCO members now wear standard sleeve insignia.
What was the last item out on shoulder rank for NCOs? Haven't seen anything lately, but the last I remember was something about going to the shoulder marks for all NCOs (Yeah, even Staffs and Techs).
Of course that could be anywhere from three months to a few years as far as the currency of the info.
Quote from: Marshalus on August 12, 2010, 03:30:12 PM
If no one wears them, then Vanguard needs to stop selling them.
Well... they
could stop wearing them, but the demand is fairly high since there really isn't a clear answer to the senior without grade uniform. So if something sells, why stop producing it?
39-1 does not give a clear directive to the setup of the service coat for a senior without grade. It states that all senior members except NCOs wear shoulder insignia. NCOs wear sleeve stripes. This has allowed some wings/groups/squadrons to issue the erroneous directive that SMWOG wears blank shoulder insignia. There have also been photos of SMWOG wearing CAP cutouts on both the service coat lapel and the shirt collars, which is also a rough interpretation of the manual. I have my service dress uniform set up to the clearest that the 39-1 will allow. It has my cadet service coat that I purchased off of a popular online auction site for about $10.00. It's an NCO style coat, minus epaulets. My CAP cutouts are placed on the lapels in the appropriate location, no shoulder mark insignia, and no officer braid on the sleeves. While not wearing the service coat, CAP cutouts are on my shirt collar, when in the coat, they are removed. My flight cap is also my cap from my cadet days, with the standard dark blue trim. I've seen many SMWOG incorrectly wear the blue/silver officer flight cap before their promotion to 2d Lt. However, the common answer I receive is "I'm not buying two flight caps within a year!"
Hawk, also don't forget the experiment with embroidered NCO shoulder marks. Perhaps VG still sells the blank ones for your own personal embroidery machine to stitch whatever NCO/Warrant/Flight/Commissioned Officer grade you so choose, past, present, cadet, or future.
Quote from: kd8gua on August 12, 2010, 05:59:24 PMHawk, also don't forget the experiment with embroidered NCO shoulder marks.
That's what I was referring to. I seem to recall something about all NCOs wearing shoulder marks, even Staff and Technical Sergeants. For the life of me, I can't seem to find it. I do recall some members here obtaining them as a special order from Vanguard.
Just wondering if it was one of those things that came down the pike once, and is never to be heard of again.
It's irrelevant to me now that I've got my butter bars, but I had no idea SMWOG didn't wear silver braided flight caps.
Quote from: Marshalus on August 12, 2010, 10:34:02 PM
It's irrelevant to me now that I've got my butter bars, but I had no idea SMWOG didn't wear silver braided flight caps.
Most people ignore/work around that a few ways.
1) Wear the polo for 6 months while you await promotion.
2) Wear the uniform anyway with the braided cap, because it makes no sense to buy a flight cap for 6 months (most frequent).
3) Some units will have a few of the regular flight caps anyway (from issuing stuff to cadets and all) that can be borrowed for about 6 months.
I can actually quote that one in the 39-1! It's rare that it's actually straightforward on something!
CAPM 39-1 Page 51, Table 2-1:
Flight Cap:
Worn slightly to the wearer's right with
vertical crease of the cap in line with the
center of the forehead, in a straight line with
the nose. The cap extends approximately 1
inch from the eyebrows in the front. If not
worn, tuck under the belt on either side,
between first and second belt loops; cap will
not fold over belt. Cap has dark-blue colored
edge braid for cadets, senior member NCOs,
Airmen and senior members without grade;
silver and blue in a diamond pattern edge
braid for all senior member officers; and
silver-colored edge braid for general officers.
All shades and materials of cap are authorized
with any uniform combination. Top of cap
will not be crushed or made to form a peak in
the rear. Senior members wear metal satin
finish flight cap insignia. Cadet officers wear
metal grade insignia. Cadet NCOs and
Airmen wear metal flight cap insignia.
Emphasis mine.
Quote from: kd8gua on August 12, 2010, 11:04:31 PM
I can actually quote that one in the 39-1! It's rare that it's actually straightforward on something!
So it would seem. As it was, our Supply Officer handed me a silver braided one on my first night, and I went along my merry way.
Now I know. Little case of RTFM on my part. Since there are currently no other (active) SMWOG's in our squadron I can make a point to highlight it in the future ;)
For the benefit of current and future SMWOG's, I will take some pictures of the service dress as I have it set up, to the best of my ability per multiple readings of the 39-1 in regards to members without grade. Hopefully this will help clear confusion on everything Blues related.