Basic, Doolie, Etc

[MIKE]

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

That would be airman, sergeant or chief... Not Doolie or Basic.  CAPR 52-16 2-3. e. dictates that all cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity, so it stands to reason that they should addressed in a manner befitting their earned grade.

Instead we have special names for cadets attending their first encampment, or those who either aren't staff or aren't attending some sort of advanced course.  My argument is that one should not differentiate.

[Hawk200]

A little websearch turned up this:

http://dictionary.infoplease.com/doolie

Pronunciation: (dOO'lē), [key] —n. Slang. a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy

And this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doolie

doolie (plural doolies) (US) A first year student at the United States Air Force Academy; a cadet freshman

None of which apply to a CAP cadet, anyway. CAP personnel need to get away from "adopting" military terminology that doesn't apply to us.

[SSgt Rudin]

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

That would be airman, sergeant or chief... Not Doolie or Basic.  CAPR 52-16 2-3. e. dictates that all cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity, so it stands to reason that they should addressed in a manner befitting their earned grade.

Instead we have special names for cadets attending their first encampment, or those who either aren't staff or aren't attending some sort of advanced course.  My argument is that one should not differentiate.

And CAPP 52-15 specifically refers to cadets attending their first encampment as "basic cadets."

[mikeylikey]

And CAPP 52-15 specifically refers to cadets attending their first encampment as "basic cadets."

So when addressing them, we should say "Basic Cadet blah"  etc. 

Whats the big deal with adopting titles of address?? 

[Pylon]

And CAPP 52-15 specifically refers to cadets attending their first encampment as "basic cadets."

I would argue though that "basic cadet" is not an appropriate term to use to address a cadet in conversation.  We can refer to "cadet leaders" or "cadet staff members" or "cadet senior NCOs" when speaking in generalities about a group of cadets.  They are descriptive terms.

However, one would not turn around as use that language as a term of address.  You would not say "Cadet Staff Member Jones is over there" or "Cadet Senior NCO Smith come over here, please".  You would instead use the terms that CAPP 151 sets up:  "Airman Doe, Cadet Thomas and Sergeant Brown come here please" would not only make more sense, but also be correct.

Why make up terms that we don't need to?

As for the fact that the Air Force Academy may use or may have used the term doolie to refer to first year cadets is actually a good reason why we shouldn't refer to first year encampment attendees as such.

Whats the big deal with adopting titles of address?? 

We're training these new and impressionable cadets at encampment, right?  Why would be start teaching them terms that aren't correct, instead of setting the example of how they should address each other when not at encampment?  Set the proper example from the start and maybe you won't end up with weird traditions that units have to correct when cadets come home from encampment.

[CadetProgramGuy]

you are gaining nothing by calling them doolies or Basic Cadets.

Give them respect until they do somthing to mess that up.

Call them by their earned grade and rank.

As an Officer how would you like to be called a doolie if this is your first encampment? (even if you are a major)

[spaatzmom]

you are gaining nothing by calling them doolies or Basic Cadets.

Give them respect until they do somthing to mess that up.

Call them by their earned grade and rank.

As an Officer how would you like to be called a doolie if this is your first encampment? (even if you are a major)

Sir,

Your first 3 lines are very true.  Raise  your expectations of people and for the most part they will strive to meet them.  However on point 4 there is a big problem.  Unless this has been changed since 2007 when my son became a senior member, there will be no cadet officer doolies or basic cadets in attendance as they must go to an encampment in order to achieve their Mitchell and officer hood.  Of course this does not preclude any cadet officer from attending an out of wing encampment and requesting to be placed in a flight and treated the same as the other flight members, first timers included.

[DC]

you are gaining nothing by calling them doolies or Basic Cadets.

Give them respect until they do somthing to mess that up.

Call them by their earned grade and rank.

As an Officer how would you like to be called a doolie if this is your first encampment? (even if you are a major)

Sir,

Your first 3 lines are very true.  Raise  your expectations of people and for the most part they will strive to meet them.  However on point 4 there is a big problem.  Unless this has been changed since 2007 when my son became a senior member, there will be no cadet officer doolies or basic cadets in attendance as they must go to an encampment in order to achieve their Mitchell and officer hood.  Of course this does not preclude any cadet officer from attending an out of wing encampment and requesting to be placed in a flight and treated the same as the other flight members, first timers included.

Ma'am, he was referring to Senior Members, who we now must call 'Officers', not to be confused with Cadet Officers.

[Eclipse]

Ma'am, he was referring to Senior Members, who we now must call 'Officers', not to be confused with Cadet Officers.

Whether he was or not is irrelevant as this is not the case - the term for adults in the program is still "Senior Members".

This "officer member" nonsense was a "suggestion" by HWSRN and has never been adopted in any official capacity.  I again lift the mantle of challenge to anyone to show me any official document, online system, identification card, or regulation where this is the case. (an off-handed  mention in an otherwise unrelated memorandum doesn't count).

To the thread's point - "doolie" is a terminology in very limited use by one state's encampment and should be discontinued.  It has no place or application in CAP.

Cadets attending in the basic flights, whether they are 1st year or 4th year (yes, some cadets understand there is more to the encampment experience than a 1-year punch and come back as basics multiple years, or attend different encampments as basics) are referred to as "basics", for no other reason than quick reference, with no derogatory meaning behind it.

Any other cadets are..."cadets", with reference to their grade in the same respect as the rest of CAP - no particular authority.

Senior members are never "doolies", "basics", or anything else other than "Senior Members".

[Duke Dillio]

I normally just call cadets "Cadet" such and such.  Maybe it is just me but I didn't expect seniors to call me Lt. Col. blah blah WIWAC.  I was a cadet and whether I had more grade than a senior, I still expected them to call me cadet.  Just my .02 on the subject.

[MIKE]

Senior members etc are supposed to address cadets as cadet... Cadets however; are not.

[SSgt Rudin]

A little websearch turned up this:

http://dictionary.infoplease.com/doolie

Pronunciation: (dOO'lē), [key] —n. Slang. a first-year cadet in the U.S. Air Force Academy

And this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doolie

doolie (plural doolies) (US) A first year student at the United States Air Force Academy; a cadet freshman

None of which apply to a CAP cadet, anyway. CAP personnel need to get away from "adopting" military terminology that doesn't apply to us.

From the topic "Doolie Parents"

The term Doolie has been around CAP since the early 1950's. At my 1st encampment the term wasn't heard, and that was 1946. but at encampments in the 50's I attended as staff the term was in use. And I've heard it used at encampments at Tennessee, georgia, Alabama and Texas.

The USAF Academy was formed in 1954, so they need to stop "adopting" our terms that don't apply to them 

Spacing - MIKE

[DC]

Senior members etc are supposed to address cadets as cadet... Cadets however; are not.

So it is wrong for a cadet officer or NCO to call an Airman 'Cadet Soandso'?

What's wrong with that?

[MIKE]

See my cite in the initial post.

[RiverAux]

This "officer member" nonsense was a "suggestion" by HWSRN and has never been adopted in any official capacity.  I again lift the mantle of challenge to anyone to show me any official document, online system, identification card, or regulation where this is the case. (an off-handed  mention in an otherwise unrelated memorandum doesn't count).

Senior members are never "doolies", "basics", or anything else other than "Senior Members".

This is the closest I've seen to it in an actual regulation that I can remember, however I've got a nagging feeling that "officer" was used as the generic for senior member in another one, just can't think of it.  :
CAPM 39-1 uses this terminology:

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel

[Hawk200]

The USAF Academy was formed in 1954, so they need to stop "adopting" our terms that don't apply to them 

I'm betting that the Academy was the first to use it.

Second, there is not not one single official publication in Civil Air Patrol that uses the the term "doolie". If there is, someone can show it to everyone here.

Otherwise, it's adopting military terminology that makes CAP personnel look like wannabes. We've got enough problems with that already.

[CadetProgramGuy]

you are gaining nothing by calling them doolies or Basic Cadets.

Give them respect until they do somthing to mess that up.

Call them by their earned grade and rank.

As an Officer how would you like to be called a doolie if this is your first encampment? (even if you are a major)

Sir,

Your first 3 lines are very true.  Raise  your expectations of people and for the most part they will strive to meet them.  However on point 4 there is a big problem.  Unless this has been changed since 2007 when my son became a senior member, there will be no cadet officer doolies or basic cadets in attendance as they must go to an encampment in order to achieve their Mitchell and officer hood.  Of course this does not preclude any cadet officer from attending an out of wing encampment and requesting to be placed in a flight and treated the same as the other flight members, first timers included.

Ma'am, he was referring to Senior Members, who we now must call 'Officers', not to be confused with Cadet Officers.

Thanks, thats exactly what I meant.

Also let me clairfy, I also address cadets by their grade and rank as well.  I ask it of them to address me by my grade, I will address them by theirs.

[PHall]

The way we do it California Wing.

The Basic Cadets are addressed as Cadet or Cadet [insert name here].

The Basic Cadets are usually referred to as "Basics" when we are talking about them as a group.

Basic Cadets who happen to be Cadet NCO's are still addressed as Cadet.

Sergeant is reserved for the Flight Sergeant so that there is no confusion about who is who.

This is in no way an effort to force our methods and procedures on any other wing/unit.

Have a nice day.

[CadetProgramGuy]

The way we do it California Wing.

The Basic Cadets are addressed as Cadet or Cadet [insert name here].

The Basic Cadets are usually referred to as "Basics" when we are talking about them as a group.

Basic Cadets who happen to be Cadet NCO's are still addressed as Cadet.

Sergeant is reserved for the Flight Sergeant so that there is no confusion about who is who.

This is in no way an effort to force our methods and procedures on any other wing/unit.

Have a nice day.

Ok Officer

[Eclipse]

.
This is the closest I've seen to it in an actual regulation that I can remember, however I've got a nagging feeling that "officer" was used as the generic for senior member in another one, just can't think of it.  :
CAPM 39-1 uses this terminology:

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel

You won't find it anywhere.

The above is how it should be, refereing "officers" as "officers", not in the distinction between Senior Members and Cadet members.

Tags - MIKE

[Tim Medeiros]

well I was in the process of replying to the Doolie Parents thread when it got locked, so, here is my post.

If the terminology is not in any of our pubs, it does not any place being used by CAP.

With that said, the term and position of Web Security Admin or Administrator had no place being used by CAP until about 22 March 2007 when the first publication with its use came out, CAPP 227.  We've been using that term since the eServices system was revised in the early 2000s (I think around 2002).  CAP publications are behind the times when it comes to new terminology, does that mean we shouldn't be using it or doesn't have any place in CAP?  I'm not saying whether or not using the term Doolie or Basic Cadet (which is actually "lower" than a Doolie at USAFA according to a friend of mine whos finishing up her first year as we speak) but what I am saying is that statements logic can keep us from progressing forward when we need to by sticking us with antiquated terminology.

edit: hmm, that sounded better in my head

[smitjud]

The way we do it California Wing.

The Basic Cadets are addressed as Cadet or Cadet [insert name here].

The Basic Cadets are usually referred to as "Basics" when we are talking about them as a group.

Basic Cadets who happen to be Cadet NCO's are still addressed as Cadet.

Sergeant is reserved for the Flight Sergeant so that there is no confusion about who is who.

This is in no way an effort to force our methods and procedures on any other wing/unit.

Have a nice day.

This is the same thing we've done in AL as long as I can remember.

[Hawk200]

well I was in the process of replying to the Doolie Parents thread when it got locked, so, here is my post.

If the terminology is not in any of our pubs, it does not any place being used by CAP.

With that said, the term and position of Web Security Admin or Administrator had no place being used by CAP until about 22 March 2007 when the first publication with its use came out, CAPP 227.  We've been using that term since the eServices system was revised in the early 2000s (I think around 2002).  CAP publications are behind the times when it comes to new terminology, does that mean we shouldn't be using it or doesn't have any place in CAP?  I'm not saying whether or not using the term Doolie or Basic Cadet (which is actually "lower" than a Doolie at USAFA according to a friend of mine whos finishing up her first year as we speak) but what I am saying is that statements logic can keep us from progressing forward when we need to by sticking us with antiquated terminology.

Apparently the term was commonly used, and appropriate, so it was adopted. If the term is suitable, then it will probably will be picked up.

The term "doolie" may have been in use in some places, but it hasn't been included in any of our publications. And most likely for good reason. It's not appropriate.

A few of the etymology sites on the web indicate that the most probably history of the term "doolie" is from the Greek "doulos", meaning "slave". How is that in any way appropriate to our first time encampment attending cadets?

[356cadet]

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

Yeah, I noticed that your title said "Doolie." Being myself, having studied the AFA thouroughly, I was wondering why an AFA freshman would be considered a newcomer in a special activity.

I was wondering basic to be good enough.

[DC]

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

Yeah, I noticed that your title said "Doolie." Being myself, having studied the AFA thouroughly, I was wondering why an AFA freshman would be considered a newcomer in a special activity.

I was wondering basic to be good enough.

I'm not quite following you... USAFA uses the term Doolie to refer to freshmen, like USNA calls their freshmen Plebes. Some CAP encampments call their basic cadets doolie. They are pretty much unrelated except in the word they use.

[Eclipse]

Being myself,

Who else would you be?

[addo1]

Being myself,

Who else would you be?

Being someone else?   

[AlphaSigOU]

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

Yeah, I noticed that your title said "Doolie." Being myself, having studied the AFA thouroughly, I was wondering why an AFA freshman would be considered a newcomer in a special activity.

I was wondering basic to be good enough.

I'm not quite following you... USAFA uses the term Doolie to refer to freshmen, like USNA calls their freshmen Plebes. Some CAP encampments call their basic cadets doolie. They are pretty much unrelated except in the word they use.

Must be old-school-brown-shoe USAFA (back in the days when they wore khakis); the term 'doolie' is rarely used to refer to fourth class cadinks at the Zoo these days. Most times they're referred to as 'four-digs' (a corruption of 'fourth-degree') or 'smack' (reputedly it's an acronym for 'Soldier Minus Aptitude, Coordination and Knowledge').

The various military academies (and state colleges with a military cadet tradition) have unique terms for their fourth class members:

USMA - Plebe
USNA - Plebe
USAFA - Doolie (rarely), four-dig, four-degree, smack
Texas A&M Corps of Cadets - Fish
The Citadel - Knobs
VMI- Rats
Norwich - Rooks

[Cecil DP]

In my opinion the term Doolie is derogative and pejorative. There is no Doolie grade title in CAP. If we expect to train cadets we must set an example and use of term like this is an example of what not to do. i stopped by the FLWG encampment this morning and was total underwhelmed by the example the cadet and senior staff was displaying 

[spaatzmom]

i stopped by the FLWG encampment this morning and was total underwhelmed by the example the cadet and senior staff was displaying 

Sorry you felt that way, but encampment doesn't even begin until today.  Only the staff had to be there while you were there to work out last minute issues.  I am sure it is quite different now that cadets are checking in.

[PHall]

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

Yeah, I noticed that your title said "Doolie." Being myself, having studied the AFA thouroughly, I was wondering why an AFA freshman would be considered a newcomer in a special activity.

I was wondering basic to be good enough.

I'm not quite following you... USAFA uses the term Doolie to refer to freshmen, like USNA calls their freshmen Plebes. Some CAP encampments call their basic cadets doolie. They are pretty much unrelated except in the word they use.

Must be old-school-brown-shoe USAFA (back in the days when they wore khakis); the term 'doolie' is rarely used to refer to fourth class cadinks at the Zoo these days. Most times they're referred to as 'four-digs' (a corruption of 'fourth-degree') or 'smack' (reputedly it's an acronym for 'Soldier Minus Aptitude, Coordination and Knowledge').

The various military academies (and state colleges with a military cadet tradition) have unique terms for their fourth class members:

USMA - Plebe
USNA - Plebe
USAFA - Doolie (rarely), four-dig, four-degree, smack
Texas A&M Corps of Cadets - Fish
The Citadel - Knobs
VMI- Rats
Norwich - Rooks

Never heard of that version of "SMACK".

Only one I've heard of, relayed through the 3 cadets from my unit who have gone to the Blue Zoo in the past 10 years or so, is that SMACK comes from the sound of their book bags smacking against the their left leg as they "run the strips" on the terrazzo.

The soldier reference in your definition definitely shows that it didn't come from Camp USAFA!

[lordmonar]

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

Yeah, I noticed that your title said "Doolie." Being myself, having studied the AFA thouroughly, I was wondering why an AFA freshman would be considered a newcomer in a special activity.

I was wondering basic to be good enough.

I'm not quite following you... USAFA uses the term Doolie to refer to freshmen, like USNA calls their freshmen Plebes. Some CAP encampments call their basic cadets doolie. They are pretty much unrelated except in the word they use.

Must be old-school-brown-shoe USAFA (back in the days when they wore khakis); the term 'doolie' is rarely used to refer to fourth class cadinks at the Zoo these days. Most times they're referred to as 'four-digs' (a corruption of 'fourth-degree') or 'smack' (reputedly it's an acronym for 'Soldier Minus Aptitude, Coordination and Knowledge').

I was told they were called SMACK because that is sound fecal matter makes when it hits the wall (as an upper classman enters the room or walks down the hall).

[BillB]

Since the term Doolie was in use by CAP (at a 1946 CAP encampment at MacDill AFB) before there was an Air Force Academy, the question is "where did CAP and USAFA get the term from"

[PHall]

Since the term Doolie was in use by CAP (at a 1946 CAP encampment at MacDill AFB) before there was an Air Force Academy, the question is "where did CAP and USAFA get the term from"

Aviation Cadet Program?

Any of our historians have any input on this?

[mikeylikey]

I finally found the answer! 

A Doolie was a medical stretcher (or a term for one at least) used between 1840 and 1920.  Soldiers assigned to the Philippines who worked as medics or ambulance corpsman would routinely be called "Doolies" in recognition of some of the work they did, as in carrying the doolie.  It was also a term used on pacific islands and predominantly by the British during the First World War.  Which makes me think, the British coined the phrase, and American Soldiers picked it up when they served alongside the British or in previously occupied British colonies. 

So, its an Army term, no longer in use by the Army, and a medical term, no longer in use by the medical community.  The AF picked it up....and it is very rarely used anymore. 

WEBSTER has the following definition......."DOOLIE"
- stretcher for one person: a stretcher used, especially in the past, to carry a single ill or wounded person

[Cecil DP]

i stopped by the FLWG encampment this morning and was total underwhelmed by the example the cadet and senior staff was displaying 

Sorry you felt that way, but encampment doesn't even begin until today.  Only the staff had to be there while you were there to work out last minute issues.  I am sure it is quite different now that cadets are checking in.

Actually I saw several "Basic Cadets' report in with the staff, (I assume that was their only ride) what impressed me was several cadet officers in T shirts, keeping the cadets in a formation while there was no noticable attempts to sign them in. The first thing you learn as an NCO is that if the troops are in BDU jackets, the staff should be wearing their jackets also, none were. Rather than asking "what color is infinity?, they should have been moving them out of the 92 degree heat and processing them.  As stated I was underwhelmed.

[mikeylikey]

^ Unfortunately if you were to attend every Encampment in each of the Wings, you would find the exact same thing.  Being underwhelmed is always a possibility at any CAP activity. 

I also believe it is an unfortunate practice to have a formation for no other reason than to keep Cadets together and "out of the way". 

It is disgusting to see a formation led by a person that is not in the same uniform as those he or she is leading.