State Guard ranks and CAP

[Hawk200]

Put up another thread in uniforms, but this one has to do with ranks. The reason I'm asking these questions is that I've got a couple of potentials that are in the State Guard (yes, it's a legitimately recognized one).

Question: Should officer and NCO ranks from legitimately recognized State Guards' be recognized by Civil Air Patrol?

To clarify, should a 1LT in a State guard receive the same rank in CAP? Or should an Army element SSG get Tech Sgt in CAP?

In addition, if anyone has any references as to whether or not they are recognized, I'd appreciate seeing those. Will help me answer any questions of that nature posed to me.

[jeders]

I have to say no on this one. My reasoning is even the recognized ones have people that I would barely consider for CAP 2d Lt, let alone something more. Additionally, determining which ones should be validly recognized isn't always that easy.

[Dragoon]

It sounds like you're asking if they currently DO get the same rank in CAP.  The answer to that one is no.  35-6, I believe spells out who gets rank. State Guard is not listed.

Whether they SHOULD or not is a subject for another long-winded CAP-TALK debate!  Sounds like fun.

[jeders]

It sounds like you're asking if they currently DO get the same rank in CAP.  The answer to that one is no.  35-6, I believe spells out who gets rank. State Guard is not listed.

Whether they SHOULD or not is a subject for another long-winded CAP-TALK debate!  Sounds like fun.

Question: Should officer and NCO ranks from legitimately recognized State Guards' be recognized by Civil Air Patrol?

Seems like he's asking for another longwinded CAPTalk debate, yay 

[FlyingTerp]

As a former State Defense Force NCO and Warrant Officer, I'd have to say no.  State Guards are a mixed bag.  Some may have extensive training programs and some may have next to nothing.  Federally recognized officers and NCO grades are held to a standard that can be verified by CAP.  Plus, giving prior service rank in CAP is a recognition of their service and value to the CAP mission..

That being said, I sure would like to be able to wear my NG state active ribbon.... :-).

[Grumpy]

It's interesting that you should be down on the guard.  (Don't want to salute their officers or give them the same grade as a reserve officer)  I have spent a total of 22 yrs associated with the AF.  Six active, three reserve and sixteen in the guard.  Except for my time on active duty, I carried a DD Form 2AF (red).  While I was on active duty it was green.

My pay checks, guard and reserve, came from Colorado.  I had the same training requirements both in the reserves and Guard, one week-end a month and 15 days active in the summer, (although in the Guard I wound up actually performing more duty time than in the reserve).

In the Guard our Iris and Sat's were performed by the active duty AF.  They even gave us some outstanding ratings.  (I know of a few active duty commanders who were fired for failing their ORI).  Whenever I went to a Tech school, it was taught by active duty personnel on active bases.

When it came time for requesting billets for training the AF Reserve would say sorry no can do, even though reserve billets were authorized.  The Guard would fix me right up.

The Guard base I was on flew rotations to Panama for years (before the Dem's gave it to the Chinese).

Now I'm retired and guess what.  In Deers I'm listed as retired Air Force and I even have a DD Form 2AF that's gray in color and I get a check from the same place everybody else does.

One difference between the Guard and Reserve is the in the Guard you're more likely to get called up because you can be activated by the state AND activated by the President.  In the reserves all you have to worry about are the Feds.

So I don't why you want to treat Guardsmen as second class citizens when it comes to serving in a voluntary organization such as Civil Air Patrol.  Might I add that there are active Guardsmen who are in Iraq right now ducking the same bullets that the "Active Duty" Air Force personnel are.
Also, there are people working arm in arm with you in CAP that active in the Guard.

End ranting

[MIKE]

Point of order: He's  talking about State Guard or State Defense Forces... Not the National Guard proper, so your rant is misplaced.

[jeders]

Grumpy, are you talking about National Guard or state guard. The original question was about state guards which have a tendency to be far less disciplined than the National Guard. Also, state guard, I'm pretty sure here, are only activated by the state, not the feds.

Edit:

Point of order: He's  talking about State Guard or State Defense Forces... Not the National Guard proper.

You beat me to it.

[Al Sayre]

I think that they are refering to the State Defense Force/State Militia/State Guard organizations, not the National Guard...

[BillB]

Question....are we talking about State Defense Forces, or Air or Army National Guard? If talking about National Guard, the answer would be yes. If State Defense Forces the answer is no.

[jeders]

Question....are we talking about State Defense Forces, or Air or Army National Guard? If talking about National Guard, the answer would be yes. If State Defense Forces the answer is no.

Question: Should officer and NCO ranks from legitimately recognized State Guards' be recognized by Civil Air Patrol?

Emphasis mine.

[Grumpy]

Point taken.  You have my most humble apologies.  I thought you were talking about the Air National Guard.

[Short Field]

Is the State Guard part of the Armed Forces or not?  This section seems to say "not".

===========================
TITLE 32 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 109
Sec. 109. - Maintenance of other troops

(a)  In time of peace, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States.

(e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces

[jeders]

Point taken.  You have my most humble apologies.  I thought you were talking about the Air National Guard.

No prob.

[O-Rex]

I know a number of folks who belong to CAP, CGAUX and State Guards and a few other alleged 'high-speed/low-drag' organizations simultaneously.  First, I laud them for having so much free time, but where is their focus?  I know people who come to join CAP, and the first thing they do is whip out a wallet full membership cards and/or I.D.'s of all kinds of organizations to which they belong (they are usually disappointed when it fails to elicit a gasp or other awe-inspired reaction from me.)  Assuming that they are active in all or some of them, I confront them from the git-go: "This is all very nice, but who are you going to go with when something big happens?"

Nonetheless, those 'collectors' who join almost invariably fade away shortly thereafter, having obtained another credential with which to attempt to impress the ladies.

"Those who attempt to be all things to all people usually end up being nothing to no one."

I've probably struck some nerves here: fire at will....

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, SDFs are incredibly inconsistent in terms of their standards and training at all ranks.  Since each state does it differently and their are no national requirements it would be impossible to assume that a 1st Lt in CA is equivalent to a 1st Lt. in GA and that both are equivalent (or better, if you prefer) than a CAP 1st Lt.  Some SDFs will more or less automatically grant you various ranks based on some assessment of your education and experience while others will make you work somewhat hard for it. 

And some SDF folks will admit that in some cases their ranks are given out with even lower standards than CAP.  For example, radio star Clark Howard was made a Captain when he joined the GA SDF for no real reason at all other than it was somewhat good publicity to the SDF. 

With this amount of differences between states, it just wouldn't make much sense to have some sort of national-level recognition of prior qualifications of SDF officers. 

[JayT]

I know a number of folks who belong to CAP, CGAUX and State Guards and a few other alleged 'high-speed/low-drag' organizations simultaneously.  First, I laud them for having so much free time, but where is their focus?  I know people who come to join CAP, and the first thing they do is whip out a wallet full membership cards and/or I.D.'s of all kinds of organizations to which they belong (they are usually disappointed when it fails to elicit a gasp or other awe-inspired reaction from me.)  Assuming that they are active in all or some of them, I confront them from the git-go: "This is all very nice, but who are you going to go with when something big happens?"

Nonetheless, those 'collectors' who join almost invariably fade away shortly thereafter, having obtained another credential with which to attempt to impress the ladies.

"Those who attempt to be all things to all people usually end up being nothing to no one."

I've probably struck some nerves here: fire at will....

Yeah, I've run into a few of those guys.....

[PA Guy]

I know a number of folks who belong to CAP, CGAUX and State Guards and a few other alleged 'high-speed/low-drag' organizations simultaneously.  First, I laud them for having so much free time, but where is their focus?  I know people who come to join CAP, and the first thing they do is whip out a wallet full membership cards and/or I.D.'s of all kinds of organizations to which they belong (they are usually disappointed when it fails to elicit a gasp or other awe-inspired reaction from me.)  Assuming that they are active in all or some of them, I confront them from the git-go: "This is all very nice, but who are you going to go with when something big happens?"

Nonetheless, those 'collectors' who join almost invariably fade away shortly thereafter, having obtained another credential with which to attempt to impress the ladies.

"Those who attempt to be all things to all people usually end up being nothing to no one."

I've probably struck some nerves here: fire at will....

I am one of those folks that you are referring to plus I belong to a Type I DMAT and don't see myself fading away anytime soon.  I have been a member of CAP and a SDF for 20+ yrs, CG Aux 4yrs and a DMAT member for 13 yrs.  Focus is not that hard to maintain since each organization has different responsibilities and expectations of it's members.  I manage to keep my ES quals current and staffed at a large encampment and Natl Staff Coll this yr.  I also have done about 2 wks. paid State Active Duty plus augment frequently with the CG and managed to maintain my focus with each.

If "something big" happens it depends on the nature and location of the incident.  I have deployed to such incidents as the WTC, Katrina/Rita, Rodney King Riots etc. and never had a conflict.  Once again, each organization has different roles and expectations.

The CG Aux is not a first responder agency, SDFs, at least mine, are strictly NG support and DMATs don't deploy in their own AOR. Besides, if it is truly "something big" in my AOR I'm probably going to be home taking care of my family.  I hope that answers your question somewhat.

To return to the topic I don't think we should have reciprocity for CAP, SDF, CG Aux awards/grade.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The discrepancies in personnel administration among the various state guard organizations, unfortunately, militates against a blanket recognition of rank by CAP.  Some states require the member to meet all the requirements of the federal components (except for age and weight) but others award "Colonel" (or Admiral) pretty freely.

[RiverAux]

You're not really talking about SDFs with the "honorary" commissions anymore though there were a few in the not so distant past that apparently did it regularly.  Those are usually done by the Governor outside of any SDF that they may have.  Heck, just about any Governor has some way of naming some yahoo a "Colonel" on his staff or something similar.