Customs/courteousies and the State Guard

[Cecil DP]

If the individual hasn't received his/her federal recognition they will wear the state on the lapel rather than the US cutouts. 

Just a slight addition to a good post.

Many, if not most, SDF officers are federally commissioned officers. 

(Usually retired.)

As a retired federally commissioned officer, they are entitled to salutes from CAP members.

But it is worth noting that even federally commissioned officers serving in the SDF wear the state thing on their lapel, rather than "U.S."  So one just can't tell the type of commission held by an SDF officer by their uniform.

Similarly, CAP members wear the "U.S." on their lapels, but clearly are not federally commissioned officers.

So the presence or absence of "U.S." on the lapel is probably not a good way to decide who to salute.

Ned Lee

I was refering to the National Guard Officer who wears the state rank, while awaiting the Federal Recognition.

[Hawk200]

Many, if not most, SDF officers are federally commissioned officers. 

(Usually retired.)

As a retired federally commissioned officer, they are entitled to salutes from CAP members.

Just noted this. By this reasoning, any retired military officer that wears a CAP uniform is "entitled" to a salute. I don't think the logic is valid. I don't think having held a comission equates to always having it. At least not in the manner we're currently discussing.

If the general concencus is that SDF officers should receive salutes, I don't have any problem with it. But I don't think rationalizing in the way we've had here is accurate, or even necessary.

[mikeylikey]

^  Umm....being retired is only a form of service in the military.  Unless the appointment and commission is revoked and the officer is dishonorably discharged, once an Officer always an Officer.  Now.....we could get into semantics, as even a 2LT who is discharged but served one year on AD during a declared or undeclared (IRAQ) war can always write his title on correspondence even after leaving the military.  That is why you see things like;

John R Doe
CPT(r) USAR, LTCOL NYSG

or

Jane T Doe
1stLt USAF, Major USACC

[JohnKachenmeister]

Mikey:

I remember hearing that, but I thought that practice had fallen into disuse.

[Ned]

Just noted this. By this reasoning, any retired military officer that wears a CAP uniform is "entitled" to a salute.  [. . .] I don't think having held a comission equates to always having it.

I mentioned it because CAPP 151 directs CAP members to extend the same customs and courtesies to retired military members as they would to active duty folks (para 2(c)).

So yes, any retired officer wearing a CAP uniform is entitled to a salute from a CAP member while both are wearing a military style uniform and the retired officer holds a federal or CAP grade higher than that of the other CAP member.

And yes, once you get a federal commission you hold it until it is revoked.

FWIW, I am still in the USAR (retired reserve), subject to recall (right after the women and children, hopefully  ), and my federal commission is still hanging on the wall in my den.

[Smokey]

Why is this an issue?

Why are those so opposed to rendering a simple courtesy to others??

It seems those against it are:

Poorly trained by mom and dad as to manners

or

Have issues with our association with the military

or

Have issues with State Defense Forces

For crying out loud, it's a salute, A simple greeting.   No one is asking you to get on your knees and kiss their feet, give up your first born, or even demanding money.   

IT'S A SIMPLE SALUTE.

Carry on.

BTW....I will quickly and sharply render a salute to any service member , even if he is in his bathrobe, should he be a Medal of Honor recipient. He not only deserves my salute but my most sincere thanks and appreciation. (He can also have my first born)

[jb512]

Why is this an issue?

Why are those so opposed to rendering a simple courtesy to others??

It seems those against it are:

Poorly trained by mom and dad as to manners

or

Have issues with our association with the military

or

Have issues with State Defense Forces

For crying out loud, it's a salute, A simple greeting.   No one is asking you to get on your knees and kiss their feet, give up your first born, or even demanding money.   

IT'S A SIMPLE SALUTE.

Carry on.

BTW....I will quickly and sharply render a salute to any service member , even if he is in his bathrobe, should he be a Medal of Honor recipient. He not only deserves my salute but my most sincere thanks and appreciation. (He can also have my first born)

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to call BS on this thread...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just noted this. By this reasoning, any retired military officer that wears a CAP uniform is "entitled" to a salute.  [. . .] I don't think having held a comission equates to always having it.

I mentioned it because CAPP 151 directs CAP members to extend the same customs and courtesies to retired military members as they would to active duty folks (para 2(c)).

So yes, any retired officer wearing a CAP uniform is entitled to a salute from a CAP member while both are wearing a military style uniform and the retired officer holds a federal or CAP grade higher than that of the other CAP member.

And yes, once you get a federal commission you hold it until it is revoked.

FWIW, I am still in the USAR (retired reserve), subject to recall (right after the women and children, hopefully  ), and my federal commission is still hanging on the wall in my den.

You and me both, Ned.

I have my commission and my degree on my wall.  I was the first person in my family to graduate from college, and the second to hold a commission.  (My dad was a World War II bombardier).  I also have all my medals in a wooden case with a glass front, but that's just to impress the hot young chicks.

[AlphaSigOU]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to call BS on this thread...

It ain't complete until someone raises the B.S. flag!



HAND....SALUTE! 

Enough with the kvetching over who is or who isn't entitled to a salute, people... when in doubt, pop one off!

[topsecret]

State guard officers aren't federally recognized, and thus I would neither initiate nor expect a salute.  I would of course return one if rendered.

Bill,

As others have pointed out, CAP directives (in this case CAPP 151) do not make any sort of distinction about whether or not someone is "federally recognized".  Where did you see something along those lines?

It appears that CAP directives in the area of saluting are a little broader than those of the USAF or the other services.  For example, we are required to salute all Medal of Honor recipients, which is not a requirment for USAF folks (unless junior in rank.)  So it makes sense that we apparently are required to salute SDF officers even if our USAF brothers might not be.

But perhaps more importantly, SDFs are "federally recognized" in the sense that the Constitution specifically provides for state militias and allows Congress to set their training standards as well as the mechanism to call them into active Federal service.  If something was written into the Constitution by the Founders, I'd call that a pretty good example of being "recognized."

Call me a wild man, but if USAF or CAP wanted me busting off salutes to State Guard officers...they'd mandate it.

I think they did, Wild Man.   

Thank you for your service.

Peace.

Ned Lee

Well, sir, I guess this is better than the jumping on me about my un-American proposal for CAP in the "if you were national commander..." hypo.

Alrighty.  CAPP 151 lists as salutables the "the President of the United States, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you." 

Let's not forget that pamphlets are not directive in nature.  Those of you playing along at home may kindly turn to CAPR 5-4, para 1i., which states that pamphlets "are nondirective, informative, 'how-to' type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies."

But I'll play along and operate within your framework.

The term "armed forces," as defined by Title 10, United States Code, Section 101(a)(4), means "the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard."

State defense forces are not members of the Armed Forces.

Where did I get "federal recognition" from?  Again, our old friend the United States Code (Title 32 USC 101).  The Army National Guard of the United States (NGUS) and Air National Guard of the United States (ANGUS) are "part of the organized militia" which are trained, have their officers appointed under Article I, Section 8, clause 16 of the U.S. Constitution, are organized, armed, and equipped wholly or partly at Federal expense, and are (Drumroll) federally recognized.  They are reserve components of the Army and Air Force, respectively.  One cannot be a member of the NGUS or ANGUS without federal recognition, as 32 USC 101(5) and 32 USC 101(7) state.

If you take a look at 32 USC Chapter 3, you will see various statutes regarding federal recognition of Guard officers.  No Federal recognition, no NGUS or ANGUS membership.  No NGUS or ANGUS membership, no Armed Forces membership. 

Our federal Constitution only allows Congress to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States..."  See U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, clause 16.  32 USC 109 outright forbids state defense forces from being called, ordered or drafted into the armed forces.  SDFs are STATE TROOPS ONLY.

No Armed Forces membership, no mandate to salute under the provisions (of a nondirective pamphlet) designated for members of the Armed Forces.  Seems fairly simple to me.

Bill Johnson, MSgt, USAF (Ret), Major, CAP
Paralegal Craftsman
USAF Judge Advocate General's Corps

[md132]

Really I don't see a problem with rendering a salute to any officer, whether they are AD, Res, NG, Ret, SDF, and it's Aux (CAP and USCG Aux).  It's common courtesy.  It's a sign of respect to the uniform.  No matter who wears it.  If I see a CAP officer senior to me, will I render a salute?  Of Course.  Will I render a salute to a USCG Aux or SDF officer?  Of Course.  No matter what uniform I wear. 

Yes, NG is part of an organized militia.  So are SDF's.  Some SDF's work hand in hand with their NG counterparts. 

As long as a person is wearing an officer military uniform, I will salute that person.

[Smokey]

OH MY GAWD,

This is still going on!!!!

Now we have lawyers parsing the issue.

You don't want to salute....don't wear a uniform.

GET OVER IT.

[SAR-EMT1]

Wow... just wow. 

[Hawk200]

Alright, in the interest of getting the thread back on track, can we limit to the question? A simple "Yes, we should salute State Guard officers" or a simple "No, we shouldn't salute them".

From what I see from the simple consensus is that we should. No problem. But all this "Yeah, they're Federal officers" and the "No they're not" isn't really what I'm looking for.

Please, limit to yeses and no's from now on, folks. Or should I lock the voting, and request a moderator to lock the thread?

[arajca]

Not to ignore your request, but I'm going to anyway.

Not all states have state guard/sdf's/etc. CO is on the doesn't. There is an outfit that calls themselves COSDF Provisional, however, they have ZERO official (state or federal) recognition. And there other examples of this across the country. Would you salute them? I won't.

[topsecret]

I'm done.  Enjoy your board, folks.

[NAYBOR]

Title 32 USC Section 109 establishes that states may establish a military defense force in their states, which does state that these forces 'may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.'  However, Title 10 USC allows for federal ACTIVATION of SDF troops:

"Federal activation [of SDFs]:

The U.S. Constitution, coupled with several statutory and case laws, details the relationship of the State Defense Forces to the federal government. Outside 32 USC 109, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled: "It is true that the state defense forces 'may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.' 32 U.S.C. 109(c). It is nonetheless possible that they are subject to call under 10 U.S.C. 331-333, which distinguish the 'militia' from the 'armed forces,' and which appear to subject all portions of the 'militia' - organized or not - to call if needed for the purposes specified in the Militia Clauses" Perpich v. Department of Defense, 496 U.S. 334 (1990). The following is an extract of the laws which the U.S. Supreme Court cited giving the federal government authority to activate the State Defense Forces.

10 USC 331 - "Federal aid for State governments"

Whenever there is an insurrection in any State against its government, the President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia of the other States, in the number requested by that State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to suppress the insurrection.

10 USC 332 – "Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority"

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

10 USC 333 – "Interference with State and Federal law"

The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it -

(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or

(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.

In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution."

Many SDF officers and SDF enlisted take the same oaths as the National Guardpersons in their respective states [I know that Maryland Defense Force officers and enlisted soldiers take oaths to obey the President of the United States and the Governor of MD, and to defend the Consitution of the US and Consitution of MD].  SDFs are also considered part of the "organized militia" of the state they are in, along with the National Guard troops.  Yes, the SDFs are first and foremost STATE SOLDIERS/AIRMAN.  But anyone thinking that SDFs can't be "federalized" are fooling themselves, IMHO.  Apparently case law, and the USC supports this notion.  And with the recent law being passed allowing Congress to take direct control of National Guard troops in any state with or without the consent of the Governor(s), I see SDFs playing an increasing role in America's defense.  The SDFs of today are much like what the US had prior to the formation of the National Guard.  Many states sent their troops/naval militias to fight in the Civil War, Spanish-American War, etc.   The Maryland Defense Force's 10MEDRGT deployed to Katrina for many weeks, deployed to Bosnia on a humanitarian medical relief mission with the MDANG for 3-4 weeks, and this past summer went with the MDANG to South Dakota for a little over 2 weeks to help the medically underserved on Indian Reservations there.  This was all done WITHOUT PAY!!! 

Our current president is from Texas, and TX has quite a robust SDF--Naval, Air, and Army.  The SDF soldiers in Texas work right along side their NG counterparts, driving tanks, etc.  You don't think our president doesn't know about SDFs?  I'll bet your rear end he does!

Yes, SDF officers/warrant officers deserve salutes, in my opinion.  They volunteer their time, with less benefits than CAP gets, to defend their state and country if need be.  They deserve respect.  In the same vein, I believe SDF officers and enlisted should give the courtesy of a salute to CAP officers that outrank them.  They don't have to, but I belive they should too.

[Becks]

Many SDF officers and SDF enlisted take the same oaths as the National Guardpersons in their respective states ...

Youre correct, I took the exact oath that the NG takes, swearing to follow both the president and the governor.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Same in Ohio.

But... Under Title 10, the funding goes to re-imburse states that use their militia for Federal purposes.  I don't think the President can directly mobilize SDF's.  This tradition goes back to the Civil War when governors kept a state force in reserve, even though most militia units were serving under Federal command.

[mikeylikey]

And with the recent law being passed allowing Congress to take direct control of National Guard troops in any state with or without the consent of the Governor(s), I see SDFs playing an increasing role in America's defense. 

Wait, wait.......that's news to me.  I must have been living in a box?  Can you link that for me.  I searched but nothing came up.

I hope that does not pass.  States are separate and sovereign to the Federal Government.  This is one more "take power from the states" by big FED.  If you look at 1820 and today, when did the individual State have more rights and power?  Today or then.  

I am not a separatist wacko, I am just shocked how no one really thinks of themselves as a Virginian or a Floridian, but as an "American".  Loyalty should be with your State first, the country second.  Then again if the FED allowed that mindset, there may have been other "civil wars".  

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a country where the individual actually elects their President, not some "backroom" gang who votes how their governor tells them to.  Or when Senators and Representatives actually went to session everyday.  Or when a military enlistment was up, it really was up (stop-loss).  Or......

YES Salute SDF Officers.  Hell I just saluted my CAT, because, it didn't throw-up after eating the new food I bought for it.  (Man cats can be so freaking picky when it comes to what they will eat.  I bought it new cat treats yesterday, it actually pushed them into a pile in the middle of the kitchen floor to tell me it doesn't like them).

I also just watched an episode of JAG too.....(best show ever!) Harm, says to Mac "Mac why is Bud (the FAT ENSIGN) eating another donut"?, Mac says "he decided that since he can't drop the pounds, he will just add to them".  Freaking Awesome writing!

BTW the episode of House, MD on tonight was rather good.  The Fake Doc gets kicked off (for those of you tivo'ing it, now you don't have to watch it, your welcome).  

I also am in the process of firing an officer because he decided to use the Office GSA card to buy gas for his POV.  He failed to let anyone know what he did, thinking he could do that since he drives to work everyday and drives off campus to go work-out at lunch that it is a qualified expense.  So for those of you who may use the company credit card or take from petty cash because gas prices are on the rise......Don't do it!  It will bite you in the rear.

Leads me to a good story.  With a Moral!  Here goes........."A 2Lt was working in the Pentagon late one night making copies when his boss, a Major General walks out from his Office carrying a piece of paper.  He walks over to the shredder and asks the Lt to join him.  The General says to the LT "my secretary went home this evening before she could finish this".  The LT snatches the piece of paper from the Generals hand and says "Not a problem Sir, I would be happy to help, and feeds the paper into the shredder.  The paper gets shredded.  Happy with himself the LT looks to the General who says to the LT "thanks LT, I need about 35 copies made".  MORAL of the story......don't assume you know what others want from you!  BTW that story is called "The Shredder"

Anyone living in the Northeast notice that like 2 days ago the temp was near 75, and today its like 45?  I like how we went straight from summer temps and weather right into "winterish" weather OVERNIGHT!

Oh ya.....So is the consensus that we should salute SDF Officers?  Seriously?  Who does it hurt?  It may actually brighten someones day.  Like the song goes......BE HAPPY!

DONE.....peace out!