Customs/courteousies and the State Guard

[mikeylikey]

These SDF Officers do get a commission from their governor, making them state military Officers.  That was good enough for over 200 years, I would say they are due the proper customs and courtesies.  I wonder are the National Guard required to salute SDF Officers in their respective states.  The National Guard was more like the SDF forces until the reorganization early last century.  Also, can these SDF Officers give orders to NG personnel?  They are playing on the same team in their respective states right?

[JohnKachenmeister]

These SDF Officers do get a commission from their governor, making them state military Officers.  That was good enough for over 200 years, I would say they are due the proper customs and courtesies.  I wonder are the National Guard required to salute SDF Officers in their respective states.  The National Guard was more like the SDF forces until the reorganization early last century.  Also, can these SDF Officers give orders to NG personnel?  They are playing on the same team in their respective states right?

Yes.

NG personnel ARE required to render military courtesy to SDF officers.

I do not beleive that WE are, but failing to render military courtesy to a person in military uniform wearing officer rank is generally viewed as an act of DIScourtesy.  I render the appropriate courtesy to all.  One is NEVER wrong is doing so.

[Cecil DP]

These SDF Officers do get a commission from their governor, making them state military Officers.  That was good enough for over 200 years, I would say they are due the proper customs and courtesies.  I wonder are the National Guard required to salute SDF Officers in their respective states.  The National Guard was more like the SDF forces until the reorganization early last century.  Also, can these SDF Officers give orders to NG personnel?  They are playing on the same team in their respective states right?

When you enlist in the National Guard, its actually a dual enlistment. You are joining both the Federally recognized Guard and the Armed Forces of that state. So yes they are saluted. Giving orders to NG personnel depends on the mission.

[CAP_truth]

For over 40 years I have always render the proper military customs and courtesies to any officer who is senior in grade to myself and I have always received the same courtesies in return. I have felt that they have earned this courtesy.

[ddelaney103]

For the most part I was looking for whether or not it's required. The general concensus doesn't really seem to be that it is required, but that it won't hurt to do so.

I was curious as to whether or not people felt it was. I'm thinking that it pretty much falls under the "Why not?" category.

I'm not going to lock the voting at this time, I'd still like to see a few more people weight in. I think a total of a hundred votes would give me an excellent overall sampling.

If that was your goal it was a badly worded question - "should" can imply "is it required" or "is it a good idea" equally well.  Looking at the question I would vote "yes" because it doesn't hurt anyone to do so, but that doesn't seem to be your implied question.

[Hawk200]

For the most part I was looking for whether or not it's required. The general concensus doesn't really seem to be that it is required, but that it won't hurt to do so.

I was curious as to whether or not people felt it was. I'm thinking that it pretty much falls under the "Why not?" category.

I'm not going to lock the voting at this time, I'd still like to see a few more people weight in. I think a total of a hundred votes would give me an excellent overall sampling.

If that was your goal it was a badly worded question - "should" can imply "is it required" or "is it a good idea" equally well.  Looking at the question I would vote "yes" because it doesn't hurt anyone to do so, but that doesn't seem to be your implied question.

Point taken. I was interested in both answers. But the way I worded it kind of skews the sample. I could amend the question to a few different answers, but everyone would probably have to vote again, and I have a feeling that many folks just voted, and moved on. Probably wouldn't get the same responses.

[topsecret]

I will salute federally recognized U.S. commissioned and warrant officers, holders of the Medal of Honor, and officers of foreign friendly nations.

State guard officers aren't federally recognized, and thus I would neither initiate nor expect a salute.  I would of course return one if rendered.

Call me a wild man, but if USAF or CAP wanted me busting off salutes to State Guard officers...they'd mandate it.

Bill J., Major, CAP
MSgt, USAF (Retired)

[Ned]

State guard officers aren't federally recognized, and thus I would neither initiate nor expect a salute.  I would of course return one if rendered.

Bill,

As others have pointed out, CAP directives (in this case CAPP 151) do not make any sort of distinction about whether or not someone is "federally recognized".  Where did you see something along those lines?

It appears that CAP directives in the area of saluting are a little broader than those of the USAF or the other services.  For example, we are required to salute all Medal of Honor recipients, which is not a requirment for USAF folks (unless junior in rank.)  So it makes sense that we apparently are required to salute SDF officers even if our USAF brothers might not be.

But perhaps more importantly, SDFs are "federally recognized" in the sense that the Constitution specifically provides for state militias and allows Congress to set their training standards as well as the mechanism to call them into active Federal service.  If something was written into the Constitution by the Founders, I'd call that a pretty good example of being "recognized."

Call me a wild man, but if USAF or CAP wanted me busting off salutes to State Guard officers...they'd mandate it.

I think they did, Wild Man.   

Thank you for your service.

Peace.

Ned Lee

[mikeylikey]

I will salute federally recognized U.S. commissioned and warrant officers, holders of the Medal of Honor, and officers of foreign friendly nations.

BUT you never really know if a National Guard Officer has a Federally recognized Commission.  I have run into my fair share that are only Commissioned by the Governor.  In fact, Most states have a Brigadier General (usually the deputy AG) appointed and commissioned by the Governor only.  For over 200 years the National guard (of course in different title) were only Commissioned Officers of their State.  We seem to have moved away from that since WW1.  Heck, up until WWII, most Officers were state Officers and never received Federal Recognition.  I do not know what the hold up is on not saluting the SDF Officers. 

They are Commissioned Military Officers of a STATE or Commonwealth which we may be a citizen of.  Don't forget your loyalty should lie with your state first and formost (different discussion, would be happy to share my ideas on it though).  They rate a salute because their Governor has appointed them to State Office.  In fact, Federal Forces should salute them out of respect for the State and that States's Governor.

Am I wrong, maybe, Does it matter........no?  You salute the rank, not the person.

[Cecil DP]

I will salute federally recognized U.S. commissioned and warrant officers, holders of the Medal of Honor, and officers of foreign friendly nations.

BUT you never really know if a National Guard Officer has a Federally recognized Commission.  I have run into my fair share that are only Commissioned by the Governor.  In fact, Most states have a Brigadier General (usually the deputy AG) appointed and commissioned by the Governor only.  For over 200 years the National guard (of course in different title) were only Commissioned Officers of their State.  We seem to have moved away from that since WW1.  Heck, up until WWII, most Officers were state Officers and never received Federal Recognition.  I do not know what the hold up is on not saluting the SDF Officers. 

They are Commissioned Military Officers of a STATE or Commonwealth which we may be a citizen of.  Don't forget your loyalty should lie with your state first and formost (different discussion, would be happy to share my ideas on it though).  They rate a salute because their Governor has appointed them to State Office.  In fact, Federal Forces should salute them out of respect for the State and that States's Governor.

Am I wrong, maybe, Does it matter........no?  You salute the rank, not the person.

If the individual hasn't received his/her federal recognition they will wear the state on the lapel rather than the US cutouts.  The AG and Deputy AG are commissioned by the Governor because these positions are constitutional offices within the state government. Generally following his/her appointments to AG the appointment to BG and subsequently MG are sent to the DoD for recognition and if they qualify will be appointed to the appropriate grade, if they don't already hold it. Historically many of the more famous Army officers prior to 1917 were state appointed including Stonewall Jackson, William H. Harrison, Teddy  Roosevelt, Joshua Chamberlain, R.E. Lee, and U.S. Grant. I suppose some wouldn't salute them either.

BTW if you won't salute an officer legally appointed by the State's Governor, why would we salute CAP officers who are promoted by a school teacher, an engineer, or a police officer, who is himself appointed by fiat from the Wing, Region, or National Commander?

[Ned]

If the individual hasn't received his/her federal recognition they will wear the state on the lapel rather than the US cutouts. 

Just a slight addition to a good post.

Many, if not most, SDF officers are federally commissioned officers. 

(Usually retired.)

As a retired federally commissioned officer, they are entitled to salutes from CAP members.

But it is worth noting that even federally commissioned officers serving in the SDF wear the state thing on their lapel, rather than "U.S."  So one just can't tell the type of commission held by an SDF officer by their uniform.

Similarly, CAP members wear the "U.S." on their lapels, but clearly are not federally commissioned officers.

So the presence or absence of "U.S." on the lapel is probably not a good way to decide who to salute.

Ned Lee

[jb512]

I can't believe this thread has gone on into this much detail, and with as many "dissenters", especially prior RM.

If your organization wears a military style uniform, wears military style insignia, and performs its duties by military style regulations, then render military style customs and courtesies.

Next...

[ZigZag911]

Both my mom (now deceased) and pop served in WW2 (she was an Army nurse, he was a buck private in the infantry....no, they didn't meet in the service!)

When we were kids they used to tell stories about their military training; Pop had one real "old timer" (a 23 year old Corporal with a combat tour seems ancient when you're 18!) put it very simply for his recruit platoon:

If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!

I'm pretty sure Pop's DI didn't originate that statement!

[O-Rex]

Would I salute a State Guard Officer?

I am reminded of the phrase "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Besides, sometimes it only takes a second to make someone's day.

[mikeylikey]

If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!

Cool......I like that!   

[SarDragon]

If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!

Cool......I like that!   

And if you can't paint it, polish it.

[ddelaney103]

Or, as the man sung:

After Johnny got through basic training, he
Was a soldier through and through when he was done.
Its effects were so well rooted,
That the next day he saluted
A Good Humor man, an usher, and a nun.

[Becks]

If the individual hasn't received his/her federal recognition they will wear the state on the lapel rather than the US cutouts. 

Which is, at least in SC, exactly what the SDF officers wear with with crossed saber and muskets on the other side.  Enlisted are the same but in disk form.

[Hawk200]

Which is, at least in SC, exactly what the SDF officers wear with with crossed saber and muskets on the other side.  Enlisted are the same but in disk form.

I believe all SDF's have adopted that design. Don't know about the heraldry, but those are available from a variety of sources. I believe all personnel wear them and that SDF's don't use any other type of branch insignia.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Hawk:

The design of the "Branch brass" was adopted by the State Guard Association of the United States to standardize insignia.  A state is not required to use it, but most do.  They also standardize the state 2-letter abbreviations for the lapel, and the use of a red nametag rather than Army-standard black. 

The heraldry is published somewhere, but basically refers to the Civil War, which is the last time most State Guard units saw combat.

Federal recognition is a fairly new innovation.  Most officers were commissioned only by their governors until, I think, 1916.  Units were designated "The 54th Massachusetts Infantry," or the "43rd Ohio Cavalry," while regular forces were designated as "7th U.S. Cavalry."

Interestingly, most Negro militia units were made federal troops, with the designation of "U.S.C.T." for "United States Colored Troops," and placed under the command of regular officers.  I don't know why this happened.  (i.e., "22nd Infantry, U.S.C.T.").