Military Education Equivalents

[DeputyDog]

This is for the professional development junkies...

I have a new(er) member that I am working with to get their Level II completed. While in the Army, this particular member completed the Primary Leadership Development Course (PLDC), which is now called the Warrior Leader Course (WLC). Later on, this member completed the Warrant Officer Advanced Course.

The question: has anyone been able to get a member to obtain the equivalency to the CAP Senior Officer Course (AFIADL-13, formerly ECI-13) by using WLC (formerly PLDC) or any of the Warrant Officer Courses (WOCC, WOBC, WOAC, WOSC or WOSSC)?

I am trying to collect information that other members have been able to argue for and successfully receive any military education equivalency credit from the above listed courses for any CAP PD courses before I call National ETP in the morning.

I know...it is July 4th, but I am a CAP Nerd. Help?

[MIKE]

Note: To determine if other military courses apply as equivalencies, contact NHQ CAP/ETP with course
information (name, course number, location, number of hours, completion date, etc.). Equivalencies
may only be used one time. To apply for an equivalency, attach a copy of diploma or other proof of
course completion (DD Fm 214) to a letter mailed or faxed to NHQ CAP/ETP. Equivalencies should be
requested as soon as possible after becoming a CAP member.

[lordmonar]

Part of your answer is righ there in CAPR 50-17 Attachment 2.

Equivalent to CAP Senior Officer Course

Code Z Any US Armed Forces NCO Academy (Pay Grades E-5 - E-6) or equivalent, resident or correspondence.

PLDC is the army version of the NCO Academy.

For the Warrant Officer courses...I would Ping NHQ but I would guess that they would replace ECI 13, RSC and maybe NSC.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The warrant officer course would be closest to OCS/OTS, and replace either ECI-13, or RSC, if PLDC were used to waive ECI-13.  NSC would need a higher-level officer course, like C&GS or War College.  Maybe CAS3, but I'm not sure.

Note to civilians reading this, and who are understandably confused:

NUNAYERDAMBIZNESS!

Thank you.

This message was brought to you through the courtesy of Maj. Kachenmeister.

Our motto:  OPSEC is mandatory, tact is optional.

[arajca]

[Never mind]
IIRC, PLDC was an E-4 course, but that was 20 years ago.

[DeputyDog]

[Never mind]
IIRC, PLDC was an E-4 course, but that was 20 years ago.

Apparently it still is. It is supposed to teach Specialists and Corporals how to be Sergeants.

That is where I am getting some confusion. It is supposed to train you to be an E-5, so does it apply to Code Z in Attachment 2?

I'll find out when I call.

[DeputyDog]

The warrant officer course would be closest to OCS/OTS, and replace either ECI-13, or RSC, if PLDC were used to waive ECI-13.

Have you seen this done? That is what I am looking for.

[DeputyDog]

Note: To determine if other military courses apply as equivalencies, contact NHQ CAP/ETP with course
information (name, course number, location, number of hours, completion date, etc.). Equivalencies
may only be used one time. To apply for an equivalency, attach a copy of diploma or other proof of
course completion (DD Fm 214) to a letter mailed or faxed to NHQ CAP/ETP. Equivalencies should be
requested as soon as possible after becoming a CAP member.

Already addressed that.

I am trying to collect information that other members have been able to argue for and successfully receive any military education equivalency credit from the above listed courses for any CAP PD courses before I call National ETP in the morning.

[Hawk200]

PLDC is the army version of the NCO Academy.

No, it's not. It was actually equivalent to Airman Leadership School. Strangely, CAP wouldn't accept ALS at the time I was trying to promote. Had to take -13.

[Never mind]
IIRC, PLDC was an E-4 course, but that was 20 years ago.

Apparently it still is. It is supposed to teach Specialists and Corporals how to be Sergeants.

It used to be required prior to Sergeant. A few years ago, it was permitted to be promoted to Sergeant without it, but you had to attend PLDC within a year of promotion, or you got demoted. This happened so often that they eventually just made it required for E-6.

Now, the PLDC has been replaced with Warrior Leader Course. E-4's may attend, but it is preferred that an individual be E-5 with some supervisory experience.

[DeputyDog]

It used to be required prior to Sergeant. A few years ago, it was permitted to be promoted to Sergeant without it, but you had to attend PLDC within a year of promotion, or you got demoted. This happened so often that they eventually just made it required for E-6.

Now, the PLDC has been replaced with Warrior Leader Course. E-4's may attend, but it is preferred that an individual be E-5 with some supervisory experience.

Would that still make it an equivalent to ALS?

[ZigZag911]

I know a member who used Sgt Major Academy in place of RSC....I would presume WO Adv Course should sub for at least ECI-13 or SOS/RSC, though I don't think it's in a written reg....you'll need to get a ruling from National.

Keep in mind that the only CAP equivalent to WO/CWO grades is the Flight Officer program, which of course only applies to those in the 18-21 year age group....and so has relatively little relation to warrant officers in the military....so be prepared to provide some documented background on what a WO is, there is a real possibility that civilian staffers at National, primarily associated with USAF (which has no warrant program) will not be familiar with it.

[DeputyDog]

I know a member who used Sgt Major Academy in place of RSC....

That is in the regulations (CAPR 50-17, Attachment 2) as a Code P, which covers as an equivalency for RSC. The problem I'm having is that the warrant officer courses are not listed, and no one on the forum has any experiences with trying to gain any equivalencies for them. 

Keep in mind that the only CAP equivalent to WO/CWO grades is the Flight Officer program, which of course only applies to those in the 18-21 year age group

Actually our flight officer grades are better described as "third lieutenants". Nothing they are or do can be equated to a warrant officer.

....and so has relatively little relation to warrant officers in the military....so be prepared to provide some documented background on what a WO is, there is a real possibility that civilian staffers at National, primarily associated with USAF (which has no warrant program) will not be familiar with it.

I have to assume that they do have some familiarity with warrant officers, otherwise we wouldn't have CAPR 35-5, Section C, Paragraph 15, Figure 3. The senior member (officer) that I am working with was promoted to the grade of captain based on him being a CW3 in the Army.

[Hawk200]

It used to be required prior to Sergeant. A few years ago, it was permitted to be promoted to Sergeant without it, but you had to attend PLDC within a year of promotion, or you got demoted. This happened so often that they eventually just made it required for E-6.

Now, the PLDC has been replaced with Warrior Leader Course. E-4's may attend, but it is preferred that an individual be E-5 with some supervisory experience.

Would that still make it an equivalent to ALS?

Probably not anymore. PLDC was pretty much phased out, WLC is considered a slightly more advanced course than PLDC was. The WLC really has no Air Force equivalence, it would essentially be in-between two Air Force courses.

The equivalency will be a moot point if National won't recognize it though.

[DeputyDog]

Would that still make it an equivalent to ALS?

Probably not anymore. PLDC was pretty much phased out, WLC is considered a slightly more advanced course than PLDC was. The WLC really has no Air Force equivalence, it would essentially be in-between two Air Force courses.

The equivalency will be a moot point if National won't recognize it though.

Good argument. I'll see what National says, but I imagine they won't recognize it either. However, odd things have been coming from National...

[dhon27]

Keep in mind that the only CAP equivalent to WO/CWO grades is the Flight Officer program, which of course only applies to those in the 18-21 year age group....and so has relatively little relation to warrant officers in the military

Well, the only reason I know this is that I had a CWO5 join my unit, but WO/CWO's can receive special appointments when joining (obviously at the CC's discretion).  Per CAPR 35-5, warrant officers are deemed as "equivalent" (as stated in the reg) to 1st Lt through Maj, depending on the WO grade they have received.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Don't forget the 20 year rule. If the certificate is more than 20 years NHQ will reject it.

[Ricochet13]

Don't forget the 20 year rule. If the certificate is more than 20 years NHQ will reject it.

Be sure you get going on this!  There really is a 20 limit on previous PME and the rule IS followed.  I joined at 20 years, 3 months.  Nothing was counted as equivalent.

[DeputyDog]

UPDATE

The issue was resolved a few hours ago. National awarded the member an equivalency to the Warrant Officer Advanced Course for the CAP Senior Officer Course (AFIADL-13, formerly ECI-13).

They would have granted the equivalency to the Warrant Officer Basic Course for the CAPSOC, but the course was completed over 20 years ago (20 years and 7 months ago...grrr...). They gave a choice between granting an equivalency to the Warrant Officer Advanced Course for the CAPSOC or the Region Staff College (RSC). The member elected to take the equivalency for the CAPSOC.

So make a note that if and when a former, current or retired warrant officer joins, their training as warrant officers can and will be granted a military education equivalent, provided it was equal to or less than 20 years ago.

Thanks for everyone's help!

[jason.pennington]

Not sure if the Army PLDC is the same in the Navy, but I completed Navy PLDC and had NO problem getting it approved as an equivalent to ECI 13.

[jimmydeanno]

Boy, I would've taken RSC instead of CAPSOC...at least CAPSOC is free...

[jasonmc]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

[ddelaney103]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nope, sorry.

Come back after you take NCOA - you'll be good for ECI13.  SNCOA can also get you out of stuff.

[Cecil DP]

UPDATE

The issue was resolved a few hours ago. National awarded the member an equivalency to the Warrant Officer Advanced Course for the CAP Senior Officer Course (AFIADL-13, formerly ECI-13).

They would have granted the equivalency to the Warrant Officer Basic Course for the CAPSOC, but the course was completed over 20 years ago (20 years and 7 months ago...grrr...). They gave a choice between granting an equivalency to the Warrant Officer Advanced Course for the CAPSOC or the Region Staff College (RSC). The member elected to take the equivalency for the CAPSOC.

So make a note that if and when a former, current or retired warrant officer joins, their training as warrant officers can and will be granted a military education equivalent, provided it was equal to or less than 20 years ago.

Thanks for everyone's help!

If he's a W-4/5 he should have also taken the last phse of the Warrent Officer Education program WArrent Officer Staff course which would equal RSC

[jasonmc]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nope, sorry.

Come back after you take NCOA - you'll be good for ECI13.  SNCOA can also get you out of stuff.

Oh well, I am seperated now, but it was worth a shot.

[ddelaney103]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nope, sorry.

Come back after you take NCOA - you'll be good for ECI13.  SNCOA can also get you out of stuff.

Oh well, I am seperated now, but it was worth a shot.

If you really wanted you could take them as a CAP'er through AFIADL.

[DeputyDog]

If he's a W-4/5 he should have also taken the last phse of the Warrent Officer Education program WArrent Officer Staff course which would equal RSC

He retired as a CWO-3. I hope in the next revision of CAPR 50-17 that they publish the equivalencies for the warrant officer training.

[AlphaSigOU]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nix on 'maggot school' for a CAP PD hookey slip. 

[jasonmc]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nope, sorry.

Come back after you take NCOA - you'll be good for ECI13.  SNCOA can also get you out of stuff.

Oh well, I am seperated now, but it was worth a shot.

If you really wanted you could take them as a CAP'er through AFIADL.

Already ordered the 13

[SAR-EMT1]

So does ALS count for anything? that is all I have.

Nope, sorry.

Come back after you take NCOA - you'll be good for ECI13.  SNCOA can also get you out of stuff.

Oh well, I am seperated now, but it was worth a shot.

If you really wanted you could take them as a CAP'er through AFIADL.

Not quite: I have tried signing up for ALS and the NCO courses, as well as the Reserve Officers Prep Course.

I was turned down on all of them.  Also I tried signing up for one of the Air Force firefighting courses. (under the civil engineering section)  I was also denied that because "it had no bearing on my CAP Job Code" ... - Since when did CAP members have an MOS number?

[Short Field]

CAP PD hookey slip. 

Oooh, I like that phrase - got to work that into some conversations soon!