Wing Patches and AF Heraldry standards

[RickFranz]

^ point taken.

[RiverAux]

I'll say it again, if CAP were to adopt its own standards, whether or not they were based on the Air Force way of doing things, I fully anticipate all existing patches would be grandfathered in and that compliance would come gradually over time.  That being said, I think Wing patches COULD be made to come into compliance faster with no cost to members if that is what would be desired -- I think it unlikely though. 

By the way, the Air Force is not CAP's sister service.  It is our parent service.  If you want to get technical, they are are "adoptive" parents....

[Eclipse]

I'll say it again, if CAP were to adopt its own standards, whether or not they were based on the Air Force way of doing things, I fully anticipate all existing patches would be grandfathered in and that compliance would come gradually over time.

I agree, and I think this is basically what is happening today by default in the wings where attention is being paif to the USAF guidelines.  I don't see why a separate standard is needed, just adopt the USAF one.

That being said, I think Wing patches COULD be made to come into compliance faster with no cost to members if that is what would be desired -- I think it unlikely though. 

How?  Unless you're counting on the "optional" clause and members simply stop wearing them. 

My Wing has about 1200 members.  A decently rendered patch is at least $3-4 these days plus setup.

At "no cost" would require buying me 6-7 patches for the uniforms I am eligible to wear it on, but even if you assume that on average each member has two uniforms for the patch, that's between $3-6k per wing, or about $150,000-$300,000 for the whole org depending on the number of states.

That's a lot of gas money for patches, just to make the point that everyone is standards compliant.

I'm all for drawing the line, saying "from this day forward" and moving on.  Of course anyone could voluntarily redesign and front the cost themselves, etc.

[RiverAux]

Please see my post earlier in the thread to see how Wing patches could be changed at no member cost. 

Incidentally, while I think having some standard is necessary, I'm not totally wedded to the AF way of doing things.  I think it makes the most sense to adopt what they've got rather than re-inventing the wheel, but wouldn't fall on my sword to avoid something different.  For example, one might say that CAP wing patches are already about 90% standardized to a round patch, so why change them?  I could live with that so long as the non-standard ones get changed in some sort of reasonable process over time. 

[alamrcn]

Well, I suppose I should eventually say something here.
But first, let's let the ABU/ACU discussion from THIS particular thread go. Most everyone is aware that it's highly likely we'll go there someday. And we know that the change will dramatically change uniform badges and patches as we know them now. But for the sake of THIS discussion, let's just speak of patches at all levels, as unit emblems used for many purposes... OK?

Now, on Wing Patches...

Our shoulder patches are essentially "divisional" patches, designed for wear on the Army uniform. Look at the other shoulder patches from the same era (WWII-Korea) and they have no standardization of shape, size, or content.

Air Corps shoulder patches weren't far off from the other Army patches, however a trend of a blue disk did appear - maybe because they were designed all at once and not because of a regulation, I don't know. Although well known, it is usually forgotten in these discussions that our first [national] shoulder patch wasn't even Air Corps, it was Civil Defense.

Even as the first unit emblems were painted on the planes and jackets of Coastal Patrol Bases, state-level emblems started to emerge as well. Perhaps this was the most defined echelon of the infant organization at the time.

So what or who should change?

Well, I'm not really for or against this idea. I just like to sit back and observe and appreciate the history that we make. But what I think RiverAux is getting at makes sense...

Many wings have altered or completely changed their wing patches since the very first design - some more than a couple times. Simply setting a National-level heraldic standard for all FUTURE changes of wing/region level insignia, is not going to effect anyones budget anymore than it would had their not been a standard in place. So what is now, can stay - and anything new follows the new rules.

And the same for squadrons. If your unit comes up with a NEW design, the Wing CC has to make sure it follows the new rules. If your unit already has an approved design, they can keep the exact same emblem going and also reorder as further quantity is needed... Just no changes, or it will have to adapt to the standards.

The big issue on the table is Time... Cost vs. Uniformity

If deadlines and phaseouts are put in place, members will have to spend money before they would have naturally had to if there were no changes. If a "grandfather" clause is used, it would be a LOOONG time before we start to all wear the same thing. I see no solution that would please everyone.

While a new heraldry standard like this is possible, it's really not probable unless a future National CC makes it his/her pet project.... And we know how THAT sort of thing has played out in recent CAP history!

-Ace

For those who haven't found it yet...
http://www.incountry.us/CAPPatches/

[RiverAux]

Another approach that could be taken in regards to the Wing patches would be to just sort of ignore them since they may or may not be worn in some states depending on the whims of the commander and since they are basically standardized now.  But, we could require that any Wing staff patches (such as pictured for PA earlier) meet the AF heraldry standards for wings and have the shield shape). 

[Major Carrales]

Another approach that could be taken in regards to the Wing patches would be to just sort of ignore them since they may or may not be worn in some states depending on the whims of the commander and since they are basically standardized now.  But, we could require that any Wing staff patches (such as pictured for PA earlier) meet the AF heraldry standards for wings and have the shield shape). 

Now you're cookin' with gas!!!  I think that is the best idea on the matter to date.  I can tell you that Texas Wing as one such Wing Staff shield as do many other Wings!!!

[Eclipse]

works for me, where do I sign?

[afgeo4]

Why is this thread even around? When we get the ABU, we won't wear patches on it, just like USAF.

[jeders]

Why is this thread even around? When we get the ABU, we won't wear patches on it, just like USAF.

Because these patches are often also used for...

Squadron insignias are worn and used in a lot more places than (optionally) on the left BDU shoulder.

Flightsuits and utility suits.

Unit t-shirts (as you mentioned)

Unit ball caps.

Unit PT gear.

Challenge coins.

Letterhead.

Web sites.

Facility signage.

Not to mention "affinitywear" like golf shirts, etc., which are not for operational wear but can be worn to work, etc.

So I would say it's still a valid topic. The whole Aux On/Aux Off discussion aside, I think that adopting AF Heraldry standards and guidelines in this manner ...

Another approach that could be taken in regards to the Wing patches would be to just sort of ignore them since they may or may not be worn in some states depending on the whims of the commander and since they are basically standardized now.  But, we could require that any Wing staff patches (such as pictured for PA earlier) meet the AF heraldry standards for wings and have the shield shape). 

... would be great. Also the original replace by attrition idea for lower echelon units such as flights and squadrons sounds good as it doesn't put any great immediate financial burden on most people.

[RiverAux]

Why is this thread even around? When we get the ABU, we won't wear patches on it, just like USAF.

Big assumption.  Also, keep in mind that wing and squadron patches are worn on other uniforms that will probably continue to be in existence -- BBDUs, flight suit, utility uniform.

[Eclipse]

Why is this thread even around? When we get the ABU, we won't wear patches on it, just like USAF.

When did this become an ABU thread?  This is regarding heraldry and patches, where they are worn is actually
irrelevant to the discussion.

Assuming we are ever approved for the ABU:

It will be a phase-in with sundowns, so we'll likely have members wearing woodland camo well into the middle of
next decade.

Assuming no change in grooming standard, a significant percentage of members will still be in Blue field uniforms
indefinitely.

Wing insignia are worn on flight suits and utilities, not to mention all the other places a unit herald is used.

And with all the above said, I'll make the following bet: The first taker with a different opinion a VERY NICE steak dinner that once the ABU is approved, at a minimum the following will continue to be worn, in full bright colors.

Nametapes - white on ultramarine
Unit patches on right breast pocket
Optional patch on left breast pocket
Wing patch on left shoulder (optional in most states).

The only two rules:

Both the winner and I have to be still in CAP when the uniform is approved.
The winner comes to my area for dinner.
(If I win, I will come to your area for the dinner).

First Come, First makes the bet, I'll exchange contact info via PM with whomever accepts.

[Major Carrales]

Why is this thread even around? When we get the ABU, we won't wear patches on it, just like USAF.

Why would it be that it is so certain that the wear of the ABU will be without patches?  It seems to be, based on how we wear the BDU compared to the USAF that..."anything goes!"  Don't be suprised if the USAF were to mandate the wear of such patches and insignia to "highlight the Difference between CAP and USAF."

I just had to chime in with that...unpopular with the lot as that it, don't count it out.

It is my opinion that the Wing patches will be gone in the next generation of CAP Officers.  What I envision happening is that Wing after Wing stops their usage until only one of two have them.  The designs will likely continue for "morale" reasons until they pass into historical obscurity...turning up on e-bay from time to time.  

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that the wing patch removal was part of a larger plan to "nationalize" CAP that has been almost entirely reversed.  I don't see them coming back on the light blue shirts, but fully expect them to come back into their own on BDUs at some point. 

[alamrcn]

It is my opinion that the Wing patches will be gone in the next generation of CAP Officers.

Might be right. I was OK with them being removed from the AF blue uniforms - has JROTC done the same?

What I've said on other threads about Wing Patches, is if they continue to stick around that they become a "default" right breast pocket patch, unless replaced by a more immediate unit patch like group or squadron. This would be a simple change, but an important step away from our Army history (and divisional shoulder patches) and toward being able to closely follow some USAF heraldry design and older uniform location standards.

Would addressing these heraldry standards fall under CAPM 39-1 since we're mostly referring to patches, or CAPR 10-1 as emblem usage? I would think the later, however there is one other option...

Simply educate the masses through the Historian Specialty Track pamphlets. If this topic is something that Col Len and Lt Col Jim are interested in, it could be added to those periodicals to at least approach emblem design and heraldry. Purely for informative purposes, yes, but an official CAP document from the National-level nonetheless.

-Ace

[wacapgh]

Because these patches are often also used for...

Squadron insignias are worn and used in a lot more places than (optionally) on the left BDU shoulder.

Flightsuits and utility suits.

<snip>

Possibly another entry for the "Myths" section on CadetStuff.

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 Table 6-4 , item 10: Organizational (Unit)Patch
embroidered centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket. (See note 2.)

Note 2 is that a sample patch be sent to NHQ historian for file.

This is not a recent change, checking a copy of CAPM 39-1 dated 1 JULY 1997 Table 5-3, item 11:
Organizational (Unit) Emblems
Embroidered Centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU shirt or field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket. May also be worn on right sleeve of jumpsuit.

In both versions, the manuals specifically mention "flightsuit" when a patch is authorized for wear on the flightsuit uniforms only (CAP Command Patch), several uniforms "BDU/field uniform and flightsuit" (ES Patch), and only with "BDU/field uniform" (Communications, Model Rocketry).

Going back at least a decade, the only uniform where a Unit Patch could have been worn on the shoulder was the CAP Jumpsuit  a.k.a. "Smurf Suit"

[Eclipse]

I am actually not even sure what you're trying to say above, but I can assure the regs support wearing an approved unit insignia in the following places:

Right breast pocket of Camo and blue BDUs.

Right shoulder or the flight suit and utility jumpsuit when approved as an optional insignia by the wing commander (which I can assure you mine is in the published supplement).

[NIN]

Get rid of the patches, when the ABU's are approved.  In fact, we should follow strict guidelines established by the AF for the ABU and badges, patches and bling.  If AF doesn't wear equivalent item, CAP does not wear it.  I think on ABU's you can wear 1 Occupational badge and wings.  SO CAP should be "One specialty badge and Wings". 

Which gets to my concept that our uniform manual should be a supplement to the current USAF uniform manual, not a separate document.

[wacapgh]

The original suggestion was that wing patches should meet the USAF design standards. It was then expanded to include Unit (Squadron and Wing HQ) designs as well, and discussion of how many uniforms and cost to the members.

This is a national level proposal, and I was referencening the current national regulations.

A few years ago when we had wing patches on almost every uniform shirt, jacket or coat, this would have a lot bigger impact. At the national level we have reduced the number of uniforms where the patch can be worn and it's further lreduced by not being worn in all wings, so it might be feasable to adopt the guidelines without a huge impact on the members.

With 8 regions, 52 wings, and over 1000 units, I'm not going to attempt to cover any policies or suppliments that have been published below the national level

[mikeylikey]

Almost on topic.......where is the Hawk MTN Special Activity patch worn?  Breast Pocket, right?!?!  Why do people in PAWG who have been to hawk wear the Hawk patch in place of the wing patch on the shoulder while those that have not been to hawk are required to wear the wing patch there?!?!

Is this (or has this) happened in any other wings??  Or is PAWG just so jacked up beyond belief? 

Why can't Wing Commanders follow the rules???  Is there a letter from the National Commander or a National supplement that allows Wing Commanders to replace Wing Patches on the shoulder with whatever patch they want?  Is this a violation of 39-1??