My BBDU experiment: after two years, I be done with this nonsense

[Eclipse]

If this were easy, given all the angst we would have solved it long ago.

I don't think he (or anyone) said it was an easy issue to fix.

Correct.  I will agree it can be viewed as a complex, nuanced challenge.  Something CAP does not historically handle well.

I would also assert it should have been fixed  long time ago.

The fix will require any number of uncomfortable conversations in various directions.  Those conversations could be made
less "uncomfortable" if things which are already decided were enforced better, and if we started pressing on commanders
to actually accomplish the mission at a level which raised the perception of CAP's ROI.

[SunDog]

Gotta be a tough, narrow ledge to walk for NHQ. Get too draconian, the backlash will be fierce. Stay too lax, USAF and folks like Eclipse are offended, justfiably so.

Drop the USAF uniforms (maybe the best solution) and alienate mass numbers of members.

Perhaps a grandfather clause, in concert with a phase-out, is the least painful (but slow) way to go? For those on-board now, keep the current options until you retire. Newbies get the (hopefully) "new" corporate combo - but no USAF option.

I understand needing a "uniform"' for immediate credibilty, recognition, etc. Don't see as clear a need for a USAF combo on CAP members. But a lot of members do, and the connection is important for them, so let the ones with us now keep wearing it. Still gonna be chunkies and hippies wearing it sometimes, but that's going on anyway. As we age out, it'll go away.

Gotta agree that the CG Aux is a whole 'nuther animal - I worked for CG for some years - Aux is very small, often integrated with AD, and they do, on occasion, tell someone their appearance isn't cutting it. Adios.

[RiverAux]

Aux is very small, often integrated with AD, and they do, on occasion, tell someone their appearance isn't cutting it. Adios.

Uh, the CG Aux is more or less the same size as CAP's senior member program and relative to the size of the CG is a significant portion of the manpower available to the CG. 

And no, you are not going to get kicked out of the CG Aux because of your appearance.  At worst, you might not get to augment at a CG unit. 

[SunDog]

CG runs about 55K people, all told. The Aux did most defintely drop a member for apoearance, to my certain knowledge. But, that could be a very, very unusual occurence.

[Shuman 14]

Those characteristics define most real-world problems, so the concept is not terribly useful. 

I'm sure there were uniform problems in the Roman Legions.  We'll never get away from them. 

The CG Aux has the same potential for massive uniform problems as does CAP.  However, they avoid them by
1) Having essentially the same uniform as our parent service
2) In practice, there is no discrimination among members in regards to what uniforms they can wear.  There is some guidance than could lead have led them down the same road as CAP, but it is so vague as to be unusable, and since everybody recognizes that, it isn't applied. 
3) Having a relatively small number of uniform options. 

I will agree that the 3 issues above relate back to one of the Wicked Problem characteristics in that they relate back to another problem -- CAP has a poor relationship with our parent service.  Because of the great relationship with its parent, the CG Aux doesn't face the same issues and avoids the problem.

Concur and I'll add when there are uniform violations, the USCGAux chain of leadership and management is not afraid to address and correct them, and, when they fail to... the USCG chain of command will.

[Shuman 14]

Sir,

Part of what I see being the problem is that there is no unified consensus about it.  Some want the AF style canned except for cadets, others want the polo canned, etc.  One of the main thing I see is the discontent that many can't wear the AF style either by reasons within their control or reasons outside of it and are stuck with Corp only.  One of the biggest complaints about the Corp is the definition of grey and that there is a lack of formal attire outside of the blazer combo.  Another issue is the trend of the polo being considered the minimum uniform for SM. 

Another issue is that no one wants to be the bad guy and point out uniform violations and when they are pointed out no one wants to take action on it.

Exactly.  Wicked problem, isn't it?

[ . . .] they relate back to another problem -- CAP has a poor relationship with our parent service.

Pretty good example of characteristic #9.  Here you have defined whether or not CAP has a good relationship with our parent service based simply on whether the AF will allow [by BMI definition] obese persons to wear their uniform.  The "solutions" to the uniform policy issues become plain only when a stakeholder gets to define the problem in ways the other stakeholders cannot agree.

Wicked, huh?

A National Uniform Committee that the average member has no input to. [. . .] To me, the NUC is yet another failed solution until there is some way for the average member to have their ideas taken seriously.

To say that you do not have access to the committee is not the same thing as not having meaningful input to the uniform policy that is eventually adopted.  At some point the draft 39-1 will be posted for full input, and members will have a full and complete opportunity to be provide input.

Kinda like what we are doing with the 52-10.  We posted it for input.  Significantly revised it based on the input we received, and have posted the revision for further comment.  Members and stakeholders are being heard loudly and clearly in the process.

I expect the same for the 39-1.

Having said that, I again repeat that since we are dealing with a largely aesthetic issue (what looks better, more professional, or is more respectful of our diverse membership) many members are going to be unhappy with whatever is decided.  And our discussions here on CAP Talk will continue unabated.

Because it appears to be a wicked problem.

I'm sure there were uniform problems in the Roman Legions.  We'll never get away from them.

Now you are just egging me on to repeat myself.  So I will

Although we are only Auxilia, we must continue to present a professional image to the full Legionnaires.

Our centurions are forced to wear helmet crests of horsehair or worse.  We should be able to wear feathers like the regular centurions.  I am embarrassed every time I go the marketplace.

And our standard bearers should not wear the pelts of lesser animals like coyotes or deer.  They should wear wolf pelts or perhaps bear to show that we contribute to the total effort as much as any member of the VI Legion!

No, we should be proud of being Auxilia and should not try to look like full Legionnaires.  They are the ones in battle, not us.  Our contributions are vital, but we are not Roman citizens; we hail from the provinces.  We are content to work quietly at our jobs.  After all, Auxilia are not trained nearly as much as a Legionnaire, so we should dress distinctively.  We don't want to draw unnecessary fire from barbarians, do we?

But the last Emperor made too many uniform changes -- our helmets, shields, and armor are different from when I first joined the Auxilia.  And I have to pay for these myself!

But Cladius Didius looks foolish in his tunic -- he is the size of an elephant, but refuses to acknowledge that life was good to him in Gaul.  We should have distinctive uniforms for our  Auxilia "Maximus" members.

Our youngest recruits deserve some distinctive items to help motivate them for the rigorous training. Perhaps we could award them phalerae to wear on their breastplates.  That should do the trick.

Jesus Mary and Joseph!

I sprayed Dr. Pepper thru my nose all over my computer!
:clap:

[Майор Хаткевич]

Serves you right for drinking that foul stuff.

[Shuman 14]

Serves you right for drinking that foul stuff.

It keeps me awake on gate duty. 

[a2capt]

Dr. Pepper .. 10, 2 and 4! ;-)
Prune juice in disguise ;-)

[ColonelJack]

Dr. Pepper .. 10, 2 and 4! ;-)
Prune juice in disguise ;-)

Hey, whatever "motivates" you ...

Jack

[abdsp51]

Honestly the whole uniform thing really can be an easy fix and it comes down to two principles.

1) Integrity
2) Enforcement

Integrity if you know you do not meet H/W or grooming standards or choose not to don't wear the AF style uniform until you meet those standards. There is the Corp uniform you can wear and participate in activities with. 

Enforcement, if you know someone is not in compliance enforce the standard and do not be afraid to do so.  Enforcement is how we fix issues especially this one. 

Now do we take the chance of alienating members because they are  a "volunteer" maybe so but if they have a hard time with following the rules then maybe they need to volunteer else where.

[PHall]

Dr. Pepper .. 10, 2 and 4! ;-)
Prune juice in disguise ;-)

The "Dr Pepper Check" is what we used to call a Thru-flight preflight on the C-141.
10 tires, 2 wings and 4 engines. Yep, it's all here, lets go fly!

[jeders]

Serves you right for drinking that foul stuff.

I dare you to come down to Texas and say that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Honestly the whole uniform thing really can be an easy fix and it comes down to two principles.

1) Integrity
2) Enforcement

Integrity if you know you do not meet H/W or grooming standards or choose not to don't wear the AF style uniform until you meet those standards. There is the Corp uniform you can wear and participate in activities with. 

Enforcement, if you know someone is not in compliance enforce the standard and do not be afraid to do so.  Enforcement is how we fix issues especially this one. 

Now do we take the chance of alienating members because they are  a "volunteer" maybe so but if they have a hard time with following the rules then maybe they need to volunteer else where.

Without putting someone on a scale, they will keep claiming to be lighter than me by 15 lbs, when they look close to double my size.  :angel:

[abdsp51]

Honestly the whole uniform thing really can be an easy fix and it comes down to two principles.

1) Integrity
2) Enforcement

Integrity if you know you do not meet H/W or grooming standards or choose not to don't wear the AF style uniform until you meet those standards. There is the Corp uniform you can wear and participate in activities with. 

Enforcement, if you know someone is not in compliance enforce the standard and do not be afraid to do so.  Enforcement is how we fix issues especially this one. 

Now do we take the chance of alienating members because they are  a "volunteer" maybe so but if they have a hard time with following the rules then maybe they need to volunteer else where.

Without putting someone on a scale, they will keep claiming to be lighter than me by 15 lbs, when they look close to double my size.  :angel:

Then you add a clause to 39-3 or 39-1 that allows the CC to weigh members when there are doubts about a members weight.  BLUF the main issue with uniforms that I have seen is those who do not meet H/W or grooming standards (medical reasons excluded) wearing the AF style uniform.  They have the Corp that they may wear and are actually instructed to wear.  This is an integrity issue.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Member: "I went to the XXWG Conference in 2011, please sign me off for PD."
CC: "I don't remember you going to that conference, show me some proof."

Member: "I'm XX inches tall and weigh YY pounds. I can wear the AF uniform."
CC: "I do not believe that. Stand next to this tape measure and then on to that scale."

Granted the second is a much more uncomfortable conversation but both fall to the commander.

Our commanders are mandated to ensure proper wear of the uniforms. Proper wear of the AF uniforms has a H/W component.

[Ned]

Then you add a clause to 39-3 or 39-1 that allows the CC to weigh members when there are doubts about a members weight. 

I don't think you need any special permission to enforce our standards.  I have conducted weigh-ins for all members over 18 wearing USAF-style uniforms when I was in charge. 

I simply let the participants know in advance that I would be asking everyone 18+ who wanted to wear AF-style uniforms to step on the scale.  I provided a private place for the process, posted the H/W extract from the 39-1, and personally verified the weights.  The member and I would then jointly refer to the table for a go / no go decision.  I had a trusted opposite gender officer available upon request for the weight verification.  Easy peasy.

Letting folks know in advance makes the rule essentially self-enforcing.  I only had one person (a cadet as it turned out) who was not in compliance, and we just took a quick trip to the mall for an aviator shirt and some grey slacks.

Human nature is fairly predictable.  If I see a police car behind me, I tend to drive more carefully and always come to a complete and full stop at every stop sign.  Similarly, if I knew in advance that I was going to have to hop on the scale once or twice a year at the squadron meeting or wing conference . . .

[Майор Хаткевич]

Folks with medical reason can't wear AF uniforms either. As for the uncomfortable conversations...we all know most people don't do it.

[abdsp51]

Folks with medical reason can't wear AF uniforms either. As for the uncomfortable conversations...we all know most people don't do it.

And if you will notice any time I have mentioned H/W and grooming I have also noted that those with a valid medical reason were excluded.

[PHall]

Serves you right for drinking that foul stuff.

I dare you to come down to Texas and say that.

BTDT