Encampment Hazing Videos?

[Pylon]

Oh.  My.  God.

I just stumbled on this abhorrence on the internet.  Who is letting these cadets run wild like this?   

[links to videos redacted in the interest of any cadets unknowingly shown in these videos]

[Bluelakes 13]

WOW - CAWG must play under their own tune...

[dwb]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

[Pylon]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

Singling cadets out and yelling at the top of your lungs... hand-to-body contact while yelling... in the first video, the cadet they're zooming in on is crying while being screamed at...  if it's not hazing, it must certainly be right on the verge of it.

[LtCol Hooligan]

Hazing?  I'm not so sure that qualifies as hazing.

It's not how I would choose to lead drill, though.

Singling cadets out and yelling at the top of your lungs... hand-to-body contact while yelling... in the first video, the cadet they're zooming in on is crying while being screamed at...  if it's not hazing, it must certainly be right on the verge of it.

I watched that and I am not sure if they were actually yelling at that cadet.  I think one of the cadets in front of him or off camera was saying the Cadet Oath really loudly.  I could be completely wrong here, but it didn't seem like they were actually yelling at him.  I think he was just nervious about being in the room.  If you notice he had his flight manual out in his hand and the others did not.

The only video that I thought was border line was the cadet who turned the wrong way.  The two cadets swarmed him pretty fast and definately yelled directly at him.  This is different than the second video where he was talking to the entire flight and the cadet next to him.  I guess I remember having to carry a small rock on my left hand when I was at encampment so my perspective may be a little bit different. 

[mikeylikey]

HEY......if we can even question if it is hazing or not hazing......THAT IS A BAD THING. 

Signal the IG.......

[NIN]

Its all about context, and usually videos like this are missing if not ALL, than at least MOST of the context necessary to understand whether or not there is hazing going on.

One said will say "well, you had to be there to see what was going on." (context)
the other will say "Sorry, if it walks and talks like a duck, its a duck. That's hazing." (lacking additional context)

I'm not saying this video does or does not depict actual hazing. I'm just saying its ALWAYS hard to tell from a photograph (for sure) and a video (less so, but still difficult) what exactly is going on without more contextual parts.

[♠SARKID♠]

I watched that and I am not sure if they were actually yelling at that cadet.  I think one of the cadets in front of him or off camera was saying the Cadet Oath really loudly.

This is in the info part of the video description.

It was his choice to cry, and was the only one doing so. I learned later he was crying in fear of the possibility of not knowing the answer to the question he'd be asked.

But we're not really focusing on the Cadet in the video, but on another cadet sounding off to Sgt Fisher's questions of other cadets in his flight.

[mikeylikey]

They focused in on the cadet crying.  That was a pre-determined decision.  It doesn't take a smart guy to figure that out.

Then you have that Cadet First SGT.....is it really necessary to yell at someone for saying "Sir".

Lets just say.....it is tough to tell.  If we had some more vids to watch.........

[Stonewall]

Don't slam me folks, but I don't think it was all that bad.  I'm one of those "anti-Gunny Hartman" guys, like most people in CAP, but that video isn't to that level.  Not saying I would run my encampment in this manner, but it's about the same level of "verbal motivation" or as some call it, "hazing" as my cadet encampments.

Do cadets cry at encampment?  Absolutely.  Not always because of hazing though.  The pressure and stress of encampment will be handled differently by different types of people at different ages.  I had a cadet that cried and "got sick" at every activity.  We had to stop letting him come on FTX's because his mom always had to come get him because "he got sick".

Are AF Form 341s considered hazing?  I saw cadets cry when they got those because they wanted so bad to be "honor cadet" or whatever. 

There is a balance between a military environment and hazing, but some people think pulling back the sheets of a bunk because it was messed up is hazing.  I call it "letting the cadet know that he messed up and we know it".  YMMV.

[Major Lord]

I think you had better review the definition of hazing! None of those videos showed any hazing. Of course, if you think they did, you have a duty to immediately file an official complaint.... Quod Errat Demonstrandum..... California Wing provides an intense encampment experience. It is not the Girl Scout Llama Camp that many Wings put on, and I believe it is the finest encampment in the land!

Major Lord

[LittleIronPilot]

I think you had better review the definition of hazing! None of those videos showed any hazing. Of course, if you think they did, you have a duty to immediately file an official complaint.... Quod Errat Demonstrandum..... California Wing provides an intense encampment experience. It is not the Girl Scout Llama Camp that many Wings put on, and I believe it is the finest encampment in the land!

Major Lord

LOL...no kidding. That is NOT hazing people, sheesh.

[Ned]

California Wing provides an intense encampment experience.

Major Lord

Thank you for your kind words.

However, I should note that NONE of the videos in this thread were taken at a CAWG encampment.

It appears both from the backgrounds and comments on YouTube that these might have been taken at a Basic Cadet School or similar activity.

But they were not taken at encampment and are not representative of the general tone of a CAWG encampment.


It is also worth remembering that CAP has officially adopted the Department of Defense's own definition of hazing. IOW, CAP did not create our own special definition or adopt a definition from a non-military organization like a school.

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned Lee
Former CAWG Encampment Commander, Commandant, Chief Tac, Tac and flunky at over 30 CAWG encampments

[Pylon]

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree.  While our definition of hazing may be the same as the DoD's, I don't think that means that we can apply it the same in a cadet program.  For example, while some actions would not cause "humiliation" to an 20+ year-old Army Infantryman, the same actions applied in the same manner might very well be humiliating  to a 12 year old C/SrA.

(Speaking of humiliating, perhaps the cadet was crying because of stress levels completely unrelated to the actions of the flight staff.  But wouldn't you consider it "humiliating" to film him up close while he's crying and then post that on the internet?)

The other factor to keep in mind is that at a DoD activity, the individuals who are generally performing these types of actions are a lot better trained to do so than a 16-year-old Cadet CMSgt.  Passing the Armstrong achievement and sitting passively through RST is not Fort Jackson's Drill Instructor School.

So while the word-for-word definition we adopted from the DoD might be the same, I wouldn't expect it to mean the same thing in an adult, profession of arms context versus a CAP cadet programs context. 

I'm not an advocate of a "let's hold hands" environment for our cadets, and appreciate an intensive training environment.  But I also believe that the application of such a training attitude and environment must be done with the utmost care and supervision.

Perhaps nobody else sees the actions in the videos as hazing or cutting it close to the line, but they're certainly not actions I would allow from any of my cadet or senior leaders.  Nor would I expect to see any of these videos in a Cadet Protection Policy Training video as examples of acceptable behavior.   And absolutely they're not something I'd be putting online for the general public to see as examples of our Cadet Program at work.

How many here would also be comfortable watching these videos with the parents of your cadets?

[Eclipse]

These videos are the reason that an increasingly large number of encampments and simliar activities do not allow cadets to have cameras or cel phones.

I'm not an advocate of a "let's hold hands" environment for our cadets, and appreciate an intensive training environment.  But I also believe that the application of such a training attitude and environment must be done with the utmost care and supervision.

Perhaps nobody else sees the actions in the videos as hazing or cutting it close to the line, but they're certainly not actions I would allow from any of my cadet or senior leaders.  Nor would I expect to see any of these videos in a Cadet Protection Policy Training video as examples of acceptable behavior.   And absolutely they're not something I'd be putting online for the general public to see as examples of our Cadet Program at work.

How many here would also be comfortable watching these videos with the parents of your cadets?

BINGO!

[mikeylikey]

(Speaking of humiliating, perhaps the cadet was crying because of stress levels completely unrelated to the actions of the flight staff.  But wouldn't you consider it "humiliating" to film him up close while he's crying and then post that on the internet?)

Well said!  Spot on.

These videos are the reason that an increasingly large number of encampments and similar activities do not allow cadets to have cameras or cell phones.

If the reason for not having a camera is that an inappropriate action or situation is filmed, then we must ask, "perhaps everything should be filmed so that no inappropriate behavior takes place".  If we are afraid something like this makes it into the public view.....where the crap was the leadership??

Now, I hope someone in CAWG looks into this.  That crying cadet most likely did not give his permission to be humiliated on line.  In fact, if this is what is coming out of that activity, I am concerned at what may be deemed "too bad" to make it on line.

[Ned]

Accordingly, if what is depicted in these videos would be hazing at at DoD activity, it would also be hazing for CAP.

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree. 

Actually, I don't think we disagree at all.

Please note I said that if was hazing at a DoD thing, it would be hazing in CAP.

I did not say, nor did I intend to imply the converse ("If it isn't hazing in the DoD, it can't be hazing in CAP.")

I agree that in a CAP context some things might occur to a 12 year old cadet that might not be hazing if it occurred to a 19 year old Marine at boot.

For many of the reasons you expressed.

Heck, I published an article pretty much saying the same thing on exactly this point here .

The point is that the DoD definition wisely adopted by our volunteer leaders was never intended to be considered or applied in a vacuum, but only after a careful consideration of the military training situation involved, the ages, maturity levels, and training of the participants, among other factors

Too many folks come away from RST or a CPP-type class thinking that we can never raise our voices to cadets, nor must cadets be exposed to any sort of a stressful environment.

If that's what the DoD meant in their definition, I suspect every DI and MTI that has ever trained a new recruit would be in Leavenworth right now . . .

What we need are seasoned CP leaders with common sense and life experience looking at each situation on a case-by-case basis to decide if a given behavior was hazing or not.


(And I can only agree that it is wrong to put a video on the net that contains recognizable images of our cadets without their express permission.)

[Pylon]

Ned, I may have to respectfully disagree. 

Actually, I don't think we disagree at all.

I apologize then for misinterpreting your post.   

[Ned]

Now, I hope someone in CAWG looks into this.  That crying cadet most likely did not give his permission to be humiliated on line. 

Concur.  Although I suspect it will be difficult to track down the poster and pursuade him/her to delete the video.

But we might start by deleting the offending link here. 

We (the CAP Talk community) sure didn't post it on YouTube, but we should not knowingly participate in spreading it further and/or publicizing its existence.

To the extent that the cadet in question might find it humiliating now or in the future, we should be in the business of helping and supporting him, not subjecting him to further exposure.

Mods?

Ned Lee
(Former Legal Officer)

[Pylon]

But we might start by deleting the offending link here. 

We (the CAP Talk community) sure didn't post it on YouTube, but we should not knowingly participate in spreading it further and/or publicizing its existence.

To the extent that the cadet in question might find it humiliating now or in the future, we should be in the business of helping and supporting him, not subjecting him to further exposure.

Mods?

Ned Lee
(Former Legal Officer)

It may perhaps be in the best interest of the cadets shown in those videos to remove the links.  I've gone ahead and voluntarily redacted them from my original post.  Unfortunately, some of those videos shown thousands of views, and YouTube is a tad more popular and more trafficked than CAPTalk.