Winter Encampments?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Anyone know of any winter encampments?  With the latest change from the Cadet Program Team with regards to NCSA's I have cadets scrambling to find a basic encampment yet this year.

[Al Sayre]

I spoke to our Wing DCP Saturday, SER Winter Encampment is 26 Dec 2007 – 8 Jan 2008 and will be at Camp Blanding outside of Jacksonville FL.  They are apparently still soliciting for Senior Member Staff Positions.  Should you have specific questions regarding the Winter Encampment please contact Colonel Joe Knight, Deputy Chief of Staff, Cadet  Programs via e-mail: DCP@SERCAP.US .

[CadetProgramGuy]

Unfortunately that won't work according to the new guidelines.

The encampment needs to be complete at time of application.

[BillB]

Aren't the dates for the SER Winter Encampment 26 Dec-3 Jan ?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Either way, it doesn't solve the situation.

[Al Sayre]

Aren't the dates for the SER Winter Encampment 26 Dec-3 Jan ?

Could be a typo, but I took the dates from the encampment letter I got...

[Cadet Tillett]

I believe that SCWG has their own winter encampment - check out
www.scwg.cap.gov

[CadetProgramGuy]

I believe that SCWG has their own winter encampment - check out
www.scwg.cap.gov

They listed their next encampment for July 2008

[Cadet Tillett]

OK thanks for clarifying that.  I would have looked it up myself but everything takes forever to load up on my dialup internet.

[mamadinos]

The 2007 Texas Wing Winter Encampment is from 26-31 December 2007 at Camp Swift in Bastrop. 
See http://www.texascadet.org/programs/activities/0712_winterencampment/index.html

[CadetProgramGuy]

Once again it is the end date that is getting us.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Not sure of you all are aware of the urgency so I will fill you in......

NHQ is changing the requirements for application to the NCSA's

Now you have to have a basic encampment COMPLETED at the time of APPLICATION.  Application time is Oct 31 to Dec 31.

Before you could do them in the same month, now you can't

[BillB]

Since it only requires 80% completion of an encampment to get credit for an encampment, it may be possible for the Encampment Commander to sign off the encampment on the 31st and the application faxed to National that day. Maxwell AFB is a ghost town in that week anyway (I was stationed at Maxwell during my big blue days) so National won't pay any attention to applications until the 3rd or 4th of January anyway.

[CadetProgramGuy]

This sounds advanced even for National......But won't the online application process prevent a cadet from applying if there is no encampment on their record?

[floridacyclist]

From what I understand, the comment period for the proposed rule change is not over yet and will not be until the 8th. The problem that National has is cadets putting in for an NCSA and promising to go to Summer Encampment and not going for whatever reason, thus leaving an unfilled slot (and perhaps a scramble to slot the alternates). I don't think they considered the issue of cadets completing a Winter Encampment and missing the cutoff by a couple of days.

Perhaps the answer is to put in your comments now asking for a later deadline for NCSA application or asking for a slight re-wording of the new rules to require a cadet to have completed or be currently attending (not just signed up) encampment at the time of application in order to qualify. Encampment attendance would be also easy to verify during the Special Acts Selection process, which would make that a more feasible cutoff time than initial application.

[CadetProgramGuy]

You are correct the comment period is not over for another week, but take a look again at the comment.

"Note Regarding Encampment: Further, because demand for NCSAs is high, and the supply of slots is scarce, NHQ is changing the NCSA eligibility criteria. Beginning this year, cadets must have completed an encampment at the time of application. Previously, we allowed cadets to attend encampment in say, June, and then attend an NCSA in July. It would be great if we could accommodate every highly-motivated new cadet, but because demand overpowers supply, CAP needs to make this change to the eligibility criteria.

[floridacyclist]

So this would be your chance to put your comment in on that if you do not agree with it verbatim. After thinking it through and seeing several problems with the first few approaches, my .02 is going to be to suggest that they require an encampment before the selection board / process, not the initial application for NCSA. This will eliminate cadets who go straight from encampment to NCSAs while still allowing cadets to attend Winter Encampment in the Winter and an NCSA in the Summer and keeping the bulk of the "screening" at Wing Level before NHQ even gets it for any kind of decision-making purposes.

To me, the idea of a comment period is to give us a chance to have our say in the hopes that they might be listening and looking for constructive advice...here's your chance to be heard if we feel so inclined, and with one of my sharpest NCOs (our 1st Sgt) scheduled for Winter Encampment and then wanting to do an NCSA, I do feel that way.

[Fifinella]

Where do we go to input our comments on this proposed change?  I also have cadets who are planning to go to winter encampment to become eligible for next year's NCSAs.

[CadetProgramGuy]

email Curt LaFond direct at National.

[Cecil DP]

Unfortunately that won't work according to the new guidelines.

The encampment needs to be complete at time of application.

Where were these cadets when the summer encampments were being held? I'm sure that they were available during the summer, or did they have something better to do at the time? The need for an encampment  is being pushed as an emergency, but lack of planning in June, doesn't mandate an emergency situation in December.

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately that won't work according to the new guidelines.

The encampment needs to be complete at time of application.

Where were these cadets when the summer encampments were being held? I'm sure that they were available during the summer, or did they have something better to do at the time? The need for an encampment  is being pushed as an emergency, but lack of planning in June, doesn't mandate an emergency situation in December.

I'd second that...

More reason that commanders need to start pushing encampment attendance as part of the larger program, and not just a check box for Mitchell or NCSA's.

Right now I have cadets asking me when the local ones will be in 2008, so they can make informed choices about other activities that may conflict.

Now that the fiscal year has started, this is what everyone should be doing - deciding what events they want to participate in during 2008 and making plans.  Most of the major recurring ones happen about the same time every year.

Cadets who join the program after the encampment season (in a given year) should concentrate on local activities and a basic encampment, not worry about NCSA's their first year, and the more seasoned ones should have been encouraged to attend their first year, making this a moot conversation.

IMHO (and hope) this is likely some of the reasoning, and I agree with the idea.

With regards to the original question, any encampment that ends on 31 DEC is going to reflect attendance in the next year.  We hand the LO the form 20 during Graduation, he sends it the next day and it still takes a week to post, and there's no holidays in the way.

[CadetProgramGuy]

The cadets that are asking now joined after July.  Thats why they didn't go to any summer encampments.

[Fifinella]

Unfortunately that won't work according to the new guidelines.

The encampment needs to be complete at time of application.

Where were these cadets when the summer encampments were being held? I'm sure that they were available during the summer, or did they have something better to do at the time? The need for an encampment  is being pushed as an emergency, but lack of planning in June, doesn't mandate an emergency situation in December.

Ditto.  I have cadets who joined after Summer Encampment, and are so motivated to participate in NCSAs next summer that they want to find a way to do encampment so they're eligible.

If cadets are motivated enough to go above and beyond to get where they want to go, why should we discourage them, and move back the goal posts?

[Chappy]

Going to winter encampment, completing by December 31, does meet the qualifications.  What they don't want is cadets applying, thinking they will go to encampment in June for a July NCSA.

[PA Guy]

The cadet program is about sooo much more than attending a NCSA within their first yr in the program. That first yr should be devoted to developing basic skills needed to be a success in the cadet program not worrying about attending a NCSA. NCSAs are the frosting on the cake for those that have labored and progressed in the program. If a cadet joined to attend NCSAs they joined for all the wrong reasons.

[floridacyclist]

Some don't have the money when it's needed, others may have Summer visitation schedule conflicts or other family commitments. I know that I always missed Summer Encampment because I had to work all Summer, which made me a 3-year C/MSgt. Luckily my CC was understanding and didn't hold that against me, I just couldn't promote.

It's not always about lack of prior planning. In our case with our 1st Sgt trying to make it to Winter Encampment, he was sick last Summer and couldn't go.

[Cecil DP]

Some don't have the money when it's needed, others may have Summer visitation schedule conflicts or other family commitments. I know that I always missed Summer Encampment because I had to work all Summer, which made me a 3-year C/MSgt. Luckily my CC was understanding and didn't hold that against me, I just couldn't promote.

It's not always about lack of prior planning. In our case with our 1st Sgt trying to make it to Winter Encampment, he was sick last Summer and couldn't go.

The fact that a cadet has other commitments during the summer has to be considered, but since winter encampments are few and far between a better alternative is to suggest that if your cadets have a time conflict to attend one in another Wing. Or to consider using the alternative of having the encampment over 2-3 weekends as allowed under CAPR 52-16. This would allow  several units or groups to get together and conduct an encampment without the week long commitment.

CAPR 52-16.5-2(a). Location & Duration. Encampments are conducted under CAP supervision with Air Force advice, assistance and cooperation. They may be conducted at active duty, National Guard, or Reserve bases. They may also be conducted at any community, state, or other national facility (including DoD installations). It is preferred that they be conducted over a single time period, not to exceed 14 days; however, they may be conducted over three weekends, spanning a period of up to 60 days.

[flyguy06]

Unfortunately that won't work according to the new guidelines.

The encampment needs to be complete at time of application.

Where were these cadets when the summer encampments were being held? I'm sure that they were available during the summer, or did they have something better to do at the time? The need for an encampment  is being pushed as an emergency, but lack of planning in June, doesn't mandate an emergency situation in December.

I'd second that...

More reason that commanders need to start pushing encampment attendance as part of the larger program, and not just a check box for Mitchell or NCSA's.

Right now I have cadets asking me when the local ones will be in 2008, so they can make informed choices about other activities that may conflict.

Now that the fiscal year has started, this is what everyone should be doing - deciding what events they want to participate in during 2008 and making plans.  Most of the major recurring ones happen about the same time every year.

Cadets who join the program after the encampment season (in a given year) should concentrate on local activities and a basic encampment, not worry about NCSA's their first year, and the more seasoned ones should have been encouraged to attend their first year, making this a moot conversation.

IMHO (and hope) this is likely some of the reasoning, and I agree with the idea.

With regards to the original question, any encampment that ends on 31 DEC is going to reflect attendance in the next year.  We hand the LO the form 20 during Graduation, he sends it the next day and it still takes a week to post, and there's no holidays in the way.

Well, some cadets may be in summer schol. Some may have went on vacation with their parents. I have cadets that went to an aviation career camp sponsored by airline pilots. I would want them to go to an encampment asap so they can go to a special activity next summer. I want them to saty motivated about CAP. Plus some are seniors and next summer may be their last chance to participate in a NCSA

[Cecil DP]

Not sure of you all are aware of the urgency so I will fill you in......

NHQ is changing the requirements for application to the NCSA's

Now you have to have a basic encampment COMPLETED at the time of APPLICATION.  Application time is Oct 31 to Dec 31.

Before you could do them in the same month, now you can't

I just checked the CAPR 52-16 which is less than a year old and it still says Encampment prior to NCSA. No mention of an update or change on the National Cadet Programs or regulation  pages.

. Application Procedures. National Headquarters announces NCSAs and their pre-requisites and application procedures each fall, on-line at www.cap.gov/cadets. Cadets must have graduated from an encampment, and received the endorsement of their wing commander, before attending an NCSA.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Page 2 Look for yourself.

Note Regarding Encampment: Further, because demand for NCSAs is high, and the supply of slots is scarce, NHQ is changing the NCSA eligibility criteria. Beginning this year, cadets must have completed an encampment at the time of application. Previously, we allowed cadets to attend encampment in say, June, and then attend an NCSA in July. It would be great if we could accommodate every highly-motivated new cadet, but because demand overpowers supply, CAP needs to make this change to the eligibility criteria.

[Cecil DP]

O.K.

Isn't it great that a regulation is superseded by a bulletin?

[BlackKnight]

As I recall the way the NCSA process really works, the deadline for online applications is Dec 31, but the cadet's application doesn't become "official" until the wing commander signs it.  This is usually done in the first or second week of January, along with the ranking of cadets in the wing for the NCSAs. Then the whole batch is sent to NHQ. So the true official deadline for the paperwork is after the winter encampments will have been completed.  Hopefully NHQ won't screw this up by hardwiring a computerized check for the encampment into the online NCSA application.  It takes a long time for this stuff to get posted in e-services. Attendance at the 2007 NCSAs has not been completely posted in e-services for my cadets.  COS has shown up but the others haven't.

With regard to summer encampments, as we move towards what is functionally year-round school in many areas of the country, CAP is going to have to become more adaptable- somehow. In my area the traditional 3-month summer vacation is down to about 7 weeks. Summer vacation starts at the end of the first week of June and they're back in class the last week of July.  So the August NCSAs (such as Blue Beret) are DOA for my public-schooled cadets.  They have to wait until they graduate to be able to attend NBB.  I hate watching these families try to cram family vacation, CAP, scout camps, little league, space camp, summer school, summer jobs, church mission trips, and everything else into only 7 weeks.  It's like watching a train wreck. Parents can't wait for school to start so they can get back to a normal routine.  The winter encampments are an important and valuable alternative for those cadets whose families can't schedule a CAP wing encampment into that ever-shrinking summer break.