Honor Guard Academy and Regional Honor Academies

[Eaker Guy]

Hey CAPTalk people,

What is your opinion of the discontinued honor guard academy and its replacement, the regional honor academies?

[MIKE]

In a word: Unfavorable

[Eaker Guy]

In a word: Unfavorable

To all of them?

[PA Guy]

In a word: Unfavorable

To all of them?

Yep. I am tired of cadets, particularly cadet officers, who seem to have forgotten how to render a proper salute.

[Eaker Guy]

In a word: Unfavorable

To all of them?

Yep. I am tired of cadets, particularly cadet officers, who seem to have forgotten how to render a proper salute.

Hmmmmm. I can see your point. I also think that the honor guard salute is just a different way of showing the same courtesy. The honor guard salute is born more out of practicality than anything else. Thank you for your reply.

[abdsp51]

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

[PHall]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

[lordmonar]

Guys........wall.
With Honor!

[Eaker Guy]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

[SarDragon]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

But others have, and I've seen it happen way too many times. It's an easy distinction to make mentally and accomplish physically.

[lordmonar]

C/Maj Kiss.....

The problem with the various honor guard academies and programs is not really with the programs themselves....but the attitudes and habits that many (not all but a significant number) of the cadets bring home with them.

I don't know how many times I have had to un-train some HGA grade who can't stand at attention correctly or takes 15 seconds to render a salute.

So....the HGA and their various incarnations do not leave a good happy warm feeling with a lot of CP officers.

[Tim Medeiros]

Having been a student and later staff at the NHGA (and yes, we stressed the difference between the two styles of drill, and that there is a time and place for each) I look favorably upon it.  I haven't had any experience with the regional ones other than knowing the director of MERs.

[PA Guy]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

And that is the point. Cadets are not keeping it in Honor Guard. And it is  just not about saluting it is all that goes with Honor Guard the screams elitism and fosters an attitude of I'm more cool than you.

[Fubar]

And that is the point. Cadets are not keeping it in Honor Guard. And it is  just not about saluting it is all that goes with Honor Guard the screams elitism and fosters an attitude of I'm more cool than you.

You mean sometimes young adults lack maturity? It happens. I'm all for cadets expanding their horizons and taking pride in new found knowledge. We then sometimes have to reign these young adults in when they get back to their squadrons, but isn't the job of a senior member to mentor these young folks and try to help them understand concepts such as time and place for certain customs?

Young adults are always looking to find their way and part of that discovery is unfortunately comparing self-worth to the perception of others. Knowing something that others don't allows cadets to attempt to differentiate themselves from others and make them feel "special" which I recall being important to the young me back when the world was still in black and white. I'm sure it's the same reason why uniform bling and funny hats are so popular with the young crowd.

Now if these special activities were preaching to the cadets how they are now extraordinary compared to their poor unfortunate regular cadet counterparts who couldn't attend the activity, then ya, let's shut 'er down and move on. But poo-pooing activities because it creates extra work for us by creating opportunities to help young adults with some attitude course corrections seems counter to the purpose of being so dedicated to the cadet program like I know most of you are.

[lordmonar]

Did I miss something?  Did someone suggest we shut them down?

I don't remember saying that.

Just said from my point of view.....value added is not very high.

Having said I don't like the HGAs.....I would never dissuade one of my cadets from going if that is what they wanted to do.

[PHall]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

Pamphlets are not "directive", they are "informative". AFI's, CAPR's, and CAPM's are directive, all of the time.

[SarDragon]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

Pamphlets are not "directive", they are "informative". AFI's, CAPR's, and CAPM's are directive, all of the time.

However comma a pamphlet may refer to the appropriate section of the reg or manual, which then gives the force of a directive.

[abdsp51]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

You asked for opinions and thoughts and that's what you have received and will receive.

[Eaker Guy]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Check out CAPP 52-8, 6.6.1. That's what the honor guard trains to.

There is a time and place for added flair.  Sorry but there is no need for an honor guard type salute or flair for anything outside of honor guard activities.

I said nothing about anything about rendering honor guard salutes outside honor guard activities.

Pamphlets are not "directive", they are "informative". AFI's, CAPR's, and CAPM's are directive, all of the time.

Then why isn't there a CAPR or CAPM for regulation of SDA's? The world is not perfect. The USAF Honor Guard Training Guide says the same thing as CAPP 52-8.

[LSThiker]

Then why isn't there a CAPR or CAPM for regulation of SDA's? The world is not perfect.

That is because CAPR 52-16 makes reference to CAPP 52-14:

Cadets' achievements in the Staff Duty Analysis program are measured through reports and staff service, as explained in 5-10b and 5-11b and in CAPP 52-14, Staff Duty Analysis Guide

Therefore, it is regulatory as CAPR 52-16 is making it regulatory. 

[Eaker Guy]

Then why isn't there a CAPR or CAPM for regulation of SDA's? The world is not perfect.

That is because CAPR 52-16 makes reference to CAPP 52-14:

Cadets' achievements in the Staff Duty Analysis program are measured through reports and staff service, as explained in 5-10b and 5-11b and in CAPP 52-14, Staff Duty Analysis Guide

Therefore, it is regulatory as CAPR 52-16 is making it regulatory.

Ok, I understand. By this logic, there should be a regulation that gives 52-8 some weight. I'll ty to find it.

Thanks!

[Fubar]

Did I miss something?  Did someone suggest we shut them down?

I don't remember saying that.

Just said from my point of view.....value added is not very high.

Having said I don't like the HGAs.....I would never dissuade one of my cadets from going if that is what they wanted to do.

My apologies for the hyperbole, I didn't mean to suggest anyone wanted the activities shuttered.

[DoubleSecret]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Re "the standard we train to":

If people would simply teach and enforce the established cadet program "by the book" and not invent their own amped-up programs and practices,  we'd have one CAP instead of a plethora of petty fiefdoms.

Just one example:  I recently encountered a rash of "by your leave, sir" from cadets in a different squadron, whose trainers somehow missed that the phrase is a Navy/USMC custom not practiced by the Air Force or Civil Air Patrol.  One day some of those cadets may interact with cadets, seniors, or Air Force personnel who were trained properly, and may be embarrassed when they bust out with that phrase and fail to impress.

[SarDragon]

Re: "by your leave:, I spent almost 21 years on AD in the Canoe Club, and used that phrase exactly twice. Both times were at the insistence of "legends in their own minds" Lieutenants, junior grade, in the dark, in somewhat inclement weather, as I was walking home on the base at Yokosuka. Schmucks.

[PA Guy]

The "Honor Guard" salute is not IAW AFI 36-2203. AFI 36-2203 is the standard that we train to.

Re "the standard we train to":

If people would simply teach and enforce the established cadet program "by the book" and not invent their own amped-up programs and practices,  we'd have one CAP instead of a plethora of petty fiefdoms.

Just one example:  I recently encountered a rash of "by your leave, sir" from cadets in a different squadron, whose trainers somehow missed that the phrase is a Navy/USMC custom not practiced by the Air Force or Civil Air Patrol.  One day some of those cadets may interact with cadets, seniors, or Air Force personnel who were trained properly, and may be embarrassed when they bust out with that phrase and fail to impress.

Yes, yes a thousand times yes. The problem is there are an increasing number of seniors who don't know the standard and can't be bothered to learn. They think their job is to just stand there and hold the cadet's hand's.

[Spam]

BITD ('90s) my second command was a unit in MDWG (St. Marys Comp Sqdn), and I had a number of cadets who participated in the seminal HGA under then-MAJ Jett Mayhew, whom I think very highly of for her efforts on that activity. That activity and the standard of care that they put into it was excellent in my opinion, given the very specific goals and guidelines of that program, plus the conditions of the national capital area environment. IF, and that's a big IF, the same standards can be adhered to with a Regional focus, I'd support it, yet having a staff diffused amongst numerous units, coupled with other factors has the potential to water down the program.

Now, I mentioned the "environment" up there... the ceremonial nature of so many events in the DC area may suit the generation and maintenance of a "critical mass" of honor guard cadre and students, but the week to week CP goals of most of the rest of the nation don't seem to do so (my opinion). If the nascent Region Honor Guard Academies were to shift their focus towards maintaining a very high quality standard for a subset of the entire HGA program that fit with regional needs (say: keeping a core business of training cadets how to do a Color Guard for common events such as funerals, parades, sports events, etc.) I would be full on in support. As is, I'm worried that in attempting to do all the elements, they will be defeated in detail on a Regional level.

So, it is in that context that I share the concern that we will see cadets (and adults) who will flock to get the bling for and come home from Regional HGA activities with the unusual trimmings (non standard salutes, attempts at cords and neck kerchiefs, et al) but without the appreciation for keeping those activity-specific items and practices segregated for use within an HG context. Mal-training, in short, for the day to day program.


V/R,
Spam